ALC Game 19 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Gilgamesh

[alcaras]

I too would like to see Choose Religions on

 

[johnny_rico]

don't know if this suggestions has been made or not. I'm short on time and haven't read everything here.

What about trying for the oracle and taking alphabet. I don't know if the GW and oracle are feasible on emperor. If it can pulled off, it would be nice for an espionage economy. Alphabet allows for some early trades to fill in all those gaps to get things rolling and then spies can be built to take advantage of an infiltration (great wall great spy) to start stealing techs.

Looking forward to seeing the vulture in action. Never played as gilg.

 

[jason77024]

All true. I just know Sisiutil has done a MC slingshot a few times recently, and I was trying to suggest something that helped with espionage, supported a REX strategy, or gave us a good warmonger civic.

Nothing wrong with MC though.

Fair enough - good point that the idea with the ALC is to pursue different strategies. If MC just weren't such a great tech, especially in this case. Kill archers with vultures, then kill axes & swords with protective crossbows. (Crossbow promos... Drill II and then D3 or Formation?)

 

[patagonia]

I don't think too many settings should be changed from standard, since part of the purpose of the ALCs is to make some sort of comparison between leaders possible. 3.13 will probably provide enough of a change to the AI compared to the Isabella games, so I'd steer clear of aggressive-AI this time out and see how the new Emperor copes.

Gilgamesh is a nicely balanced leader. Ziggurat's coming with Priesthood rather than CoL is a big bonus in the early to mid game, beacuse it gets you:

• Early courthouses.
• REX-ability (creative plus low maintenance cities early on).
• A head-start on EP against your rival(s).
• More freedom in early research priorities.

In this case, the creative trait and the UB work very nicely together because you can keep spreading much longer than you would otherwise do during the initial expansion phase of the game (map-permitting).

Not needing CoL for courthouses also allows you to pursue other techs. Given the tweaks made to the AI in BtS compared to Warlords, my favoured approach with Gilgamesh has been to tech to priesthood, chop the oracle and grab monarchy with it since this can give you a real headstart in city growth vs the AI - something you can really leverage rather than waiting for them to research it and be willing to trade (in which case you'll always be playing catchup in that regard until the war machine takes over).

Population = Power and with the UB unlocked you'll be able to afford more, bigger cities early in the game, which has to be a good thing.

In terms of tech, not needing CoL as early leaves you free to pursue other techs such as calendar and aesthetics/literature, which gives you a shot at some useful wonders and can increase the availability of health and happy into the bargain.

Ironically, I think the main problem with Sumeria is the Vulture being such an early UU because you're so well set up to REX (imperialistic rather than protective would be complete overkill). This leaves us praying for a non-Babylonian/Malinese neighbour to take out in the early game, in which case I'd save all the cities you take (free settlers) and use rapid access to the UB to dig yourself out of the financial mire. In many of the ALC games, you raze cities to refound on the perfectly dot-mapped location hundreds of years later. My gut feeling is that you'll gain more benefit from keeping a city in a slightly suboptimal location and having it available sooner, especially with the Ziggurat to lighten the cost.

Long-term goals are really map dependent and probably not worth dwelling on here since UU and UB are so early on the tech tree.

 

[madscientist]

I haven't read all posts but here are some ideas on GILG

1) He starts with agr + wheel. What he can tech will largely depend on the lanscape but I think he can adapt to almost anything. Unless he has alot of forrests I would go hunting/AH/archery/Pottery, otherwise Mining/BW.
2) Ziggurats come with Priesthood but he also needs three techs to open it up. The problem is those three techs have no real advantage (you do not need Monuments).
3) GILG can overexpand real fast because of the creative trait and can maintain that with fast Ziggurats as well as a very early forbidden palace (needs only 4 Zigs if I am correct). Very nice to cut off distant AIs but found a city with food/forrests, grow fast and whip/chop the last Zig and FP.
4) Unless you want the religion, I would favor currency ASAP and only get COL via a trade.
5) I see GILGAMESH as a very peaceful but agressive expander. Early archery for fast archers and use the hammers for settlers.

Just some ideas, sorry If I have repeated anything.

 

[Indibil]

Ok, I've been trying the Theology slingshot with Gilgamesh and I must say I've succeeded 3/3 in Monarch/Hemispheres. I might try it later at Emperor to see if it's still doable.

Game one I had Marble in a quite convenient spot for a second city (2crabs+corn+marble). Game two I popped Mining and Writing from Huts. Game 3 I had one Gold mine. All three starts were forest (8+) and hill heavy (3+) with 2 food resources (at least).

In none of those starts I had bronze reasonably near to settle my second/third city. Horses were easier, but also quite far.

In all of the starts I had an AI's Capitol at 10-18 distance from my Capitol (Zara/Justinian/Ragnar).

I think I'll keep playing save #3 getting to Machinery/Bureaucracy whilst playing a la Obsolete (as three of my cities are high hammer and I do have quite some commerce going)

 

[TeraHammer]

I really would like to see a more spy active system. I remember a tech steal game some other people did on emporer.

 

[Johan^^]

Just played an emperor game with Gilgamesh (version 3.13)

Here are some of my thought´s of the leader, UU, UB etc.

First of all, the UU is VERY good early on. I was lucky to get the random event with Shock promotions for all my "axemen"

First thought, this is great !
Thought´s after the game; that event won the game for me. So if you get lucky with this event aswell, either remake the game or go rush your enemy´(s) as they have no chance.

Here the UB comes in very handy and helps your eco big time. Though the +2 only helped me in the way, that i did not fall behind in espionage points.

The protective trait is very nice for semi early war.... If you get Crossbow men together with the UU the AI will be struggling in wartimes.


I got my first tech stolen by the AI !!!!!!!!!! it grabed literature from me

This is just one of the things that prove the AI have improved, along with greater tech rate i´ve encountered in my game.

 

[MrFelony]

part of the benefit of courthouses is that you can run early spy specialists. run them in your GPP producing cities and try and pump out as many Gspies for infiltration or of course settle them so you can still spread your EPs to everyone and dominated them on the spy playing field

 

[gallego]

I understand your point of view, but bear in mind that hut-popping is an important advantage for civs that start with Hunting (which is otherwise a crappy starting tech in most situations), and that the AI can also pop huts.

Also, in previous games, Sis has demonstrated how effective it can be to take a gamble on building a scout to seek out huts, and to send scouts/explorers to grab untouched huts after caravels become available. Since both of these are valid strategic choices in 'normal rules' games, I think it's right that Sis has those opportunities in ALC games.

I can accept that, but I still think getting techs from huts is a broken game mechanic. You don't need to scout aggressively to get two important techs. It's the equivalent of starting with a gold mine; everyone agrees that it is a much easier start, and sometimes you can already have two free techs in the first several turns in the critical early development phase. It shouldn't be a problem, but if we get some big techs early on and are able to get a wonder that we probably wouldn't have gotten otherwise or are able to rush a neighor 20 turns sooner, we will have to discount the effect of our own direct control and strategy somewhat and that's why I feel it goes against the ALC. But it's just something that I can do in my own games if people want it in; we don't need to talk about it more.

 

[cabert]

part of the benefit of courthouses is that you can run early spy specialists. run them in your GPP producing cities and try and pump out as many Gspies for infiltration or of course settle them so you can still spread your EPs to everyone and dominated them on the spy playing field

trading techs asap might be getting important now, if you want to get something for them!

 

[Sisiutil]

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts?

Nope. I like them. They're fun. Sometimes I get great hut luck, sometimes it's mediocre, and sometimes it just sucks. That's part of the game. And the higher the level, the more often the AI beats me to more of them anyway.

lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.

That too. Plus they're fun. Did I mention that?

Sumer = Spycraft

uberfish started a thread about it a while ago:
Sumerian Spy Scam

and you can use protective to aid you, castles give +25% EPs and a trade route so no need for economics for a long time (you can steal it later). So you can make good use of the production bonusses from the protective trait. If you can get stone somehow, these buildings become dirt cheap .

early game techs: BW, Priesthood, alphabet
mid game: Engineering, nationalism (nationhood = +25 Eps, +2 happy), constitution, democracy (spy buildings)

Would be a game with a cool new BtS strategy and a leader well suited for it.

That's a cool idea, I may try it. I say "may" because it's somewhat map dependent. I played a hemispheres map on the weekend where I started on a landmass with Monty, who was immediately terminated with extreme prejudice. That left me pretty much isolated for a long time, so I would have been unable to "infiltrate" anybody.

1. No Tech Brokering: this will make technology trading more challenging and strategic, I think it's a must for your games.

2. Hemispheres with 2-3 continents: These maps result in more than 2-3 landmasses (so aren't as predictable as they sound) and ensure not everyone meets one another pre-Optics and trades like crazy.

3. A couple more civs than the default number: If you're playing standard hemispheres I'd suggest 9-10.

I don't know about tech brokering just yet--maybe after we see how the new patch plays out. I'll keep it in mind. I like your suggestions on the map, but I'll probably stick with the standard number of civs. To be honest, starting with an early UU next to a whole bunch of potential victims feels kind of unbalanced.

Obviously, it's too early to get despondent about it, but my Flames and Kings are not getting off to a good start. How do you feel about the Oilers and Canucks?

Don't really follow hockey anymore, sorry.

 

[paulthebug]

I am wondering how much differences are there between Monach and Emperor. I just recently attempted my first Emperor game with Aggressive AI and Ragging Barb turned on. Got trashed. Got boxed pretty quick without those two turned on as well whilst I can win easily on Monach doing SE.

 

[LuckyAC]

The most obvious evidence in favour of this is the unique unit. Vultures have one more strength than the Axemen they replace; the price they pay for this is a loss of half the 50% bonus regular Axemen get versus melee units. I should think, though, that the increase in strength more than makes up for it, especially since the Vulture is most likely to be going up against Archers, the AI's favourite early defensive unit.

Vultures have NO price at all. They are strictly stronger units.

5*1.5 = 7.5 versus melee
6*1.25 = 7.5 versus melee

 

[cabert]

Vultures have NO price at all. They are strictly stronger units.

5*1.5 = 7.5 versus melee
6*1.25 = 7.5 versus melee

sorry to say so, but this is a wrong calculation
* vulture attacking an axe is 6 vs 5*1.25= 6.25, axe "wins"
* axe attacking a vulture is 5 vs 6/1.25=4.8, axe "wins"

 

[Killroyan]

He is propably talking about vultures against archers I guess. Otherwise yeah he is wrong. I am very curious to see how well the vultures do against the archers.

 

[cabert]

He is propably talking about vultures against archers I guess. Otherwise yeah he is wrong. I am very curious to see how well the vultures do against the archers.

vultures vs archers is clearly better than axe vs archers, no contest here.
vultures vs warriors or swords are clear winners too, no problem here.
It's just that you don't want your opponent to fill his cities with axemen.

 

[Belisar]

You talk about different situations, therefore your calculations are not comparable.
Actually, there are 3 cases:

1) axe versus vulture
2) axe or vulture versus melee unit (like sword, spear without bonus against melee)
3) axe or vulture versus other unit (where only basic strength matters)
3b) axe or vulture versus non-melee unit with bonus against melee
this is a subcase of 3, the ratio is the same because the negative bonus affects both.


1:
5 vs 6/1.25 = 4.8 ratio: 1.04

axe/vulture ratio: 1.04

2:
5 vs 6(sword)/1.5 = 4 ratio: 1.25
6 vs 6(sword)/1.25 = 4.8 ratio: 1.25

axe/vulture ratio: 1.00

3:
5 vs 3(archer) ratio: 1.67
6 vs 3(archer) ratio: 2.00

axe/vulture ratio: 0.83

subcase3b:
5/2 =2.5 vs 4(chariot) ratio: 0.625
6/2 =3.0 vs 4(chariot) ratio: 0.75

axe/vulture ratio: 0.83


Summary: against each other, the axe is slightly better,
against other melee units, both are equal
against all other units, the vulture is better because of his higher base strength.

 

[kuukkeli]

Aggressive AI can make the game easier or harder.

If you are on a continent with only 1 AI, or at the end of a continent, bordering only 1, the game could be way too easy. All the AIs war amongst themselves, and you tech to a dominating position.

Slightly OT but I'm just playing my first game with Aggressive AI and I must say I'm slightly disappointed. I do admit that I started at the end of the continent but the land was quite poor and Gilgamesh was very close to my Spain (I only managed to settle 2 cities in addition to my capital before Gilgamesh had me cornered with his Creative trait). Obviously I was teching quite slowly but I still managed to keep about on par with AI. Also Giggles was in good relations with his other neighbour.

When I finally attacked, I took 2 cities easily with just a bunch of Axes and couple of Spears to keep Chariots at bay. After 10 turns of peace Giggles attacked me with a stack of 1 Chariot, 2 Vultures, 1 Sword and 1 Catapult (and boy, how did he attack - Chariot and Vultures kill themselves against my Axes and Spears while Swords and the Catapult just camp in the woods)!

After I got Catapults I just rolled over his cities. For example on 520 AD his capital was defended by 1 Archer, 1 Horse Archer and 1 Spear (this after him being in war for about 10-15 turns, never making any major assaults and me just waiting to finish Construction)! I was really expecting to see bigger armies but honestly I didn't see much difference to normal AI. This was on Monarch with BtS.

So based on my very limited experience the jump from normal to aggressive AI is not nearly as big as some are suggesting (whether that should encourage Sis to use it now or not is a bit unclear to me ).

 

[Bursk]

Bah, I was hoping you'd go for No Tech Brokering. Have you tried using this in an offline game? Seriously, it makes the game much better. If you don't use it, once one Civ has a tech, they all get it, no?

I have noticed that tech trading is a big part of your game, and ever since No Tech Brokering has been available, I've always wondered how you'd cope if you used it. Maybe for the ALC after this one?