ALC Game 19 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Gilgamesh

[Tyrant Roger]

Protective and Creative are my two least favorite traits. I am sure I will learn much about how to use these traits from this game.

On fractal, big&small, and hemispheres there is a good chance that your nearest neighbor/target will be far away. That would make it hard to feature the Vultures.

Featuring crossbows to turn protective into an aggressive trait is attractive.

The Agg AI setting is more fun. Defense - including coastal defense - is more important. There are more AI v. AI wars. If your power slips, you will be attacked sooner or later.

 

[Scarredroman]

Yeah, the axerush or vulture rush is a given in this ALC. The old fashioned culture win is the easiest for Gilgamesh.

 

[cabert]

Yeah, the axerush or vulture rush is a given in this ALC. The old fashioned culture win is the easiest for Gilgamesh.

really? why do you say that?

 

[Scarredroman]

cheap libraries and theatres, creative trait to start and how close Gilgamesh came in this last ALC..

 

[xanadux]

Aggressive AI can make the game easier or harder.

I think it mostly comes down to who borders who. If you border many AIs, and they don't have as many AIs bordering them, you will likely be attacked early, and likely by more than one foe. This may not be so bad being protective if you can get Great Wall, feudalism for longbows, and have a target city to defend. But it could be deadly if you have a large open border o defend.

If you are on a continent with only 1 AI, or at the end of a continent, bordering only 1, the game could be way too easy. All the AIs war amongst themselves, and you tech to a dominating position.

If the last ALCS had been played with Aggressive AI, you probably would have been toast, likely facing a war on 2 fronts, one with prats that you couldn't win. Switch your starting location with either AI in that game, and it would probably be easy. Whoever gets stuck in the middle loses.

I think Aggressive AI puts a lot more luck into the game by making relative starting locations so much more important. As soon as culture borders get contested, war is likely to break out soon, and if you have too many contested borders, you are likely to get overwhelmed.

 

[Porphyrius]

The Vulture is very useful UU much more efficient than common axes at early rushes. And the cultural trait makes claiming copper for it easier and faster, though still map dependant.
However comparing the UU to Praets goes a bit to far. After all, swords are just one tech away.



More so vults are vulnerable to standard axes. And while the AI is much less likely to amass axes than a human opponent, i have to agree with prioritising xbows as per the following suggestion:

Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

Xbows provide a good counter to standard axes that would otherwise prove a pain to deal with, even if Drill I/CG I isnt excactly a critical bonus.



I wonder if walls are worth mass building though.

The UB is a bit of extra help, but nothing critical. The EP from them are not enough IMO to justify running a "spy economy". Aiming the second GP to be a spy in the right neighborhood is still a sound strategy.
But, i'd aim the 1st and 3rd as GScientists for an academy and bulbing respectively.

PS: Hemispheres are nice maps to try, but not the most suitable for early rushes, as civs are usually conected but not really close.

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

I agree with what Porphy's saying Sis. MC should be a priority, as should Crossbows.

Also, Hemispheres for the map type, and Choose Religions.

 

[gallego]

lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.

True, but they don't seem as game-making as popping two important techs before 3000 BC, or suddenly popping an important mid-game tech from a hut on a lost island. And most of the random events involve some sort of choice or action on your part.

 

[Indibil]

Quite a lot has already been said about the new leader of choice.

Gilgamesh might not have the best traits nor the über starting techs, but his UU and UB definitely asked for traits and techs to be like they are.

This being said, I'd surely take a Vulture Rush on a non-protective neighbour or two (that's the beauty of ziggurats: you can support an 8 city empire before the ADs if going on a Food Economy).

That sure makes Mining, BW, Masonry (build GW), AH , Myst, Poly, Priesthood, Writing a likely research path.

It'd be nice to Oracle slingshot Theocracy, but that might be too much. Metal Casting or even Aesthetics are a nice backup plan for the Oracle and using the Oracle generated prophet (if you don't get the GSpy) for bulbing Theocracy shouldn't be ruled off.

As for the Map script, Hemispheres is nice, though I tend to roll starting positions with low commerce and loads of trees with it (but that might be my bad luck showing).

 

[Winston Hughes]

True, but they don't seem as game-making as popping two important techs before 3000 BC, or suddenly popping an important mid-game tech from a hut on a lost island. And most of the random events involve some sort of choice or action on your part.

I understand your point of view, but bear in mind that hut-popping is an important advantage for civs that start with Hunting (which is otherwise a crappy starting tech in most situations), and that the AI can also pop huts.

Also, in previous games, Sis has demonstrated how effective it can be to take a gamble on building a scout to seek out huts, and to send scouts/explorers to grab untouched huts after caravels become available. Since both of these are valid strategic choices in 'normal rules' games, I think it's right that Sis has those opportunities in ALC games.

 

[LlamaCat]

On fractal, big&small, and hemispheres there is a good chance that your nearest neighbor/target will be far away. That would make it hard to feature the Vultures.

I was thinking the same thing. Actually he could very likely have one neighbor to rush on the same continent, then be alone for a while until Optics. An espionage game would be effective in some regards, but you need to physically get those spies across the ocean, which can be be delayed and more challenging. The Great Spy's infiltrate city mission is almost overpowered, but you will need a neighbor you can get to and who has techs to steal.

 

[Mr. Z]

A nice way to leverage the protective trait is to take Nationalism from Liberalism, beeline Rifling, then draft an army. Using theocracy and barracks everywhere, drafting a large army of riflemen with 3 promotions each is really powerful. Requires getting a pretty large empire before then which has nice synergy with the early UU and UB.

Z

 

[slobberinbear]

On a standard size hemispheres map with 2 continents, you will almost always have 2-3 neighbors you can "visit" on land or with coastal/galley access. They are usually not lined up in a linear fashion, either, which tends to happen on the snake-like maps of Fractal and Big & Small.

To be sure, Sisiutil could go with a large Hemispheres map and 2 continents, though I think part of the ALC tradition is to play on Standard size maps.

Hemispheres to me is a more balanced, predictable version of Continents that usually results in larger landmasses.

 

[sveusb]

To leverage the Protective trait on offense you need to make drill promotions more effective. Drill promotions become more effective as your combat rating increases compared to the defending unit. This occurs when attacking units that are from an earlier era or have previously damaged by cats. This suggests an army consisting of cats and bows.

 

[pigswill]

Gilgamesh does seem set up for early expansion, either through rushing neighours or rexing the open spaces. Ziggurats are worth aiming for because city maintenance is pretty high on emperor. If you can get half a dozen cities and a decent tech rate by 1ad you should be in a reasonable position for any victory.

 

[Morgawr]

Sisiutil, I've been reading your ALC threads since BTS and they're a lot of fun.

For your next game here are the options I would recommend:

1. No Tech Brokering: this will make technology trading more challenging and strategic, I think it's a must for your games.

2. Hemispheres with 2-3 continents: These maps result in more than 2-3 landmasses (so aren't as predictable as they sound) and ensure not everyone meets one another pre-Optics and trades like crazy.

3. A couple more civs than the default number: If you're playing standard hemispheres I'd suggest 9-10.

 

[uncarved block]

Just to throw in two more cents on the Aggressive AI or not argument, here's my personal experience, in case anyone has had something similar.

In Vanilla, I played with Aggressive AI, because they were entirely too passive, both with the human player and each other. After a couple games where there was only war if I started one, the box got checked and I never looked back.

After a couple games on Warlords, Aggressive AI got turned off. Yes, the AI would build larger armies, but it seemed that the increased parity led to fewer (almost zero) AI vs AI wars. At the normal settings, the more peaceful civs wouldn't build up their military as much, and the warlike civs would occasionally- not always, but enough- take a chance and declare war. Yes, that's right-- Aggressive AI led to fewer wars, at least in my experience.

Now with BtS, I haven't played with Aggressive checked because the tech rate for the AI was so clearly screwed. (And most of the players at Emperor or above here were noticing the same thing.) Adding unit cost to already poor research rates felt almost like it would be an exploit, because the human player has always been better at war. Sure, there would be the odd game where I got rushed, but it just didn't feel right, especially if there was a lot of water on the map (Big and Small, say). Now that the patch has fixed some of the worst problems, apparently, I'll go a couple games at normal setting, then see what aggressive looks like-- and check in at CFC for feedback, of course.

Long story short, I don't know that there's enough information about the new patch to warrant switching just yet. What's the rush? Sisiutil doesn't sound as if he's losing steam yet, and another week or two of input (here and at home) might be very helpful. Too personal to be useful, perhaps, but thought it was worth saying.

 

[Mr. Z]

I've found that Hemisphere Standard size maps tend to have a lot of land. More than Continents anyways. So I'd advise against using a Hemisphere Large map, unless you want there to be a ton of land, and you computer can handle it. One or two extra civs on Hemisphere Standard might be interesting.

Z

 

[Gooblah]

Tech Paths have already been suggested, but...
The Wheel and Agriculture will allow quick expansion.
Vulture is enabled by Bronze Working
Ziggurat is enabled by Priesthood.
Thus...
You'll be focusing your tech research in the Mysticism-Mining Tech Family (i.e Religious Techs, Metals, Masonry). This line of research enables 5 Wonders (Temple of Artemis -it think-, The Oracle, Stonehenge, Pyramids, and Parthenon), 2 resources (Iron and Copper), 3 units (Vulture, Spearman, Swordsman), and a couple other things. Knowing this, I suggest:

Mining-Bronze Working (early military will help prevent Aggressive AI from overrunning Sumer), followed by Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood-Pottery (cottages, Writing)
Build the Oracle and Ziggurats.
Use the Oracle to grab Code of Laws or Metal Casting
If you don't get Oracle, then grab Iron Working anyways, then Writing, Alphabet, trade for improvement techs.

 

[alcaras]

I too would like to see Choose Religions on