ALC Game 19 Pre-Game Thread: Playing as Gilgamesh

[slobberinbear]

Move ZIG. For great justice.

So Ziggy lives in Priesthood. Which means that Code of Laws has less leverage than it usually does. Anybody got clever ideas on how to best take advantage of this?

CoL grants religion, courthouses, caste system, and access to Civil Service. Taking away courthouses still makes it a worthwhile tech. If he delays researching CoL, he'll need to get his religion elsewhere and work in a non-SE economy (which is frankly not a problem early, due to low happy caps).

But let's say Sisiutil whips/chops the Oracle. What free tech could he choose instead of CoL?

* Alphabet. It's available early but is a fairly cheap tech to get with Oracle. The choice for the early spy economy, especially if you can get the Great Wall too.
* Currency. Not a horrible choice, and it would provide an economic boost if we're running a CE or hybrid. Requires Math, though. This choice would mesh nicely with a peaceful / rapid REX strategy.
* Feudalism. Synergizes with Protective nicely and gives a nice warmonger civic, but may not be realistic on Emperor, especially after teching to BW, priesthood, writing, and monarchy first.
* Theology. Gives a religion and warmonger tech, but will require going up Monotheism tree after getting writing. Perhaps not realistic on Emperor.

 

[Sisiutil]

Just something to keep in mind as you sither over settings.

Sither or dither?

I hear ya. I still think it would be best to play one game with the new patch but without the Aggressive AI. I had been intending to turn it on for the Ragnar and Shaka games anyway, which are next, after Gilgamesh. And by the sounds of it, depending on how the map turns out, I may not be going for a domination/conquest win, but rather leveraging Sumer's early advantages to claim a large enough empire to work towards a peaceful victory. We'll see.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Sither or dither?

Slytherin? I noticed the typo after it had already been quoted. Shrug, I don't figure one more tyop will soil my legacy.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

* Feudalism. Synergizes with Protective nicely and gives a nice warmonger civic, but may not be realistic on Emperor, especially after teching to BW, priesthood, writing, and monarchy first.

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

 

[TRJS]

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

So this would allow us a caste system switch along with a longbow rush?

 

[kniteowl]

Here's an idea why not play an Espionage economy???

Go 100% EP after Alphabet or maybe after Civil Service, it's something definitely different and will mesh well with his UB, and if you get the Great Wall, all the better. You'll still have to cottage though, probably a Hybrid Economy is best, lots of Cottages for research and Merchants for Maintenance.

I haven't play a Full on Espionage only economy so you'll have to do some searching and research for more information.

I say ignore Archery, and make a beeline for Gunpowder and Nationalism for drafted Protective Muskets, if you want ot leverage the Protective trait and it happens that Creative fits well with drafting with cheap Theaters and Coliseums and raising the Culture slider for a quick army produced out of no where (they also ignore walls and castles).

Although you may still want Hunting for spears to defend your UU from Chariots. For the early game let your UU and UB do the magic, The middle ages are for peace economy building and tech beelines maybe a GL for GS for the Liberalism Beeline.

 

[Bursk]

Have you tried playing with No Tech Brokering? I find it's a welcome change to the game.

 

[jason77024]

CoL grants religion, courthouses, caste system, and access to Civil Service. Taking away courthouses still makes it a worthwhile tech. If he delays researching CoL, he'll need to get his religion elsewhere and work in a non-SE economy (which is frankly not a problem early, due to low happy caps).

But let's say Sisiutil whips/chops the Oracle. What free tech could he choose instead of CoL?

* Alphabet. ...
* Currency. ...
* Feudalism. ...
* Theology. ...

Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

Sisiutil, if this is your first Gilgamesh game ever, enjoy. Playing Sumer is a blast.

 

[rupertmonkey]

Ziggurats might cost fewer hammers than courthouses, but they're still expensive. Build the Oracle, since you're getting Priesthood anyway, and take Metal Casting for the forges. Steal the religious techs you don't have with your spies and jaw-dropping espionage lead. Pop Theology with your great prophet.

I would prefer non-aggressive AI, mostly because I'm still adjusting to the patch on monarch. If you do aggressive emperor, I'm gonna be totally bewildered.

Obviously, it's too early to get despondent about it, but my Flames and Kings are not getting off to a good start. How do you feel about the Oilers and Canucks?

 

[gallego]

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts? The point of the ALC is to display skillful play and the civilization's traits, no? Goody huts are based on luck, not reproducible skill. Sure, building more scouts gives you a higher chance to get more huts, and presumably the AI also gets some techs from huts, but if you really want to distill the essence of the civ and the strategies you are using, it is better without them. For the scout argument, there is still a great amount of luck involved as you can get 2+ techs a game or get gold/maps or angry barbarians. No skill there, and the techs can be game-making, which dilutes the importance of the human strategy employed. For the equality argument that the AI also gets techs, it's even more equal to just have everyone start out with no goody huts. If you're going to have the map checked to better highlight the civ (which I agree with), then it only makes sense to turn off goody huts, which can only dilute your civ and gameplay.

 

[MrFelony]

I would say if you get a gold or gems (or heaven forbid 2) in your BFC, go for a machinery slingshot and spam Xbows since you're protective. Another thing is to build early GW in your cap or w/e city you'd want to produce GSpies, and work a spy specialist to pump out Gspies faster. build your other wonders (oracle) in a 2nd production city so you dont pollute the GP population (unless you wouldnt mind getting a GP). I say ignore CoL for now and go with MC and research alphabet and then move to machinery and just steal all the techs with your GSpies/EP advantage you'd get through Zigs and REXing. you dont have to worry about founding a religion when you can just capture one

It also opens up Civil Service via the back door.

I can't see winning Feudalism on Emporer, not without a research explosion (goldmine, fairy hut mother, etc). But grabbing Monarchy and pulling Feudalism the hard way might fit the theme.

I agree. getting Feudalism/Machinery/CS is pretty much impossible without at least one or more gold/gem/silver/furs.

 

[Jet]

Gilgamesh is like Augustus in Warlords, but
a) does everything earlier
b) is balanced.

Like Augustus, you can rush (but earlier), run 2 scientists everywhere, and build Courthouses (but earlier). Either Cottaging or Farming the capital is fine.

Gilgamesh can rush a capital that's farther away than usual. The Vulture lets you get there before a lot of border cities are in the way. The Ziggurat lets you build Forbidden Palace in the foreign capital, solving the distance problem.

 

[kniteowl]

I've brought this up before, but shouldn't you turn off goody huts? The point of the ALC is to display skillful play and the civilization's traits, no? Goody huts are based on luck, not reproducible skill. Sure, building more scouts gives you a higher chance to get more huts, and presumably the AI also gets some techs from huts, but if you really want to distill the essence of the civ and the strategies you are using, it is better without them. For the scout argument, there is still a great amount of luck involved as you can get 2+ techs a game or get gold/maps or angry barbarians. No skill there, and the techs can be game-making, which dilutes the importance of the human strategy employed. For the equality argument that the AI also gets techs, it's even more equal to just have everyone start out with no goody huts. If you're going to have the map checked to better highlight the civ (which I agree with), then it only makes sense to turn off goody huts, which can only dilute your civ and gameplay.

lol you could make the same arguement random events... but I think Sis likes a bit of randomness in the game... It's all about adapting to the situation I guess.

 

[kakitadairu]

Protective is a later-game war trait rather than early game. It leverages better once you get Rifling and later: who doesn't like free Drill 1/ City Garrison 1 on their Mechanized Infantry?

What I'd like to see is joining Great Generals to your Vultures as warlords to create super infantry units that get the Drill/ City Garrison once they're upgraded to Rifles. Using warlords, you keep all your experience and upgrade for free: it'll be awesome for your super-promoted Vultures. I recently used warlords with Hannibal and it was really awesome. Infantry gets CR3, March and Commando. My six generals were real monsters and never lost a fight, 99% even attacking from a boat without amphibious onto hills. At 200XP they each had CR1-3, Combat 1-6, Drill 1-4, March, Commando and Leadership. I think joining is just as useful as War Academy and settling- especially since War Academies aren't supposed to work until after Military Tradition.

I'd beeline for Maths or Alphabet + Currency after BW, skipping the rest of the Worker techs until later in tech trade. Between BW, Mining, Wheel and Agriculture you have all the important early Worker functions already. Mining/ BW/ Pottery/ Writing/ Maths/ Currency/ Alphabet/ Mysticism/ Meditation/ Priesthood/ Monarchy/ Feudalism/ Civil Service/ Metal Casting/ Marchinery/ Paper/ Education/ Liberalism/ Printing Press/ Guilds/ Banking/ Economics/ Replacable Parts/ Gunpowder/ Rifling -> just a hard, lean, economy/ liberalism/ infantry beeline, and you can get to Rifling even earlier if you took out the Liberalism path.

I would definitely leave off Priesthood until you are going for Monarchy/ Feudalism. That early, Library >>>> Courthouses.

Cheers,

Dai

 

[cabert]

I can see 3 interesting options, which are essentially going into the same direction.
In any case, you go for priesthood asap, for early zyggurats.
- option 1 : RExing. best use of the creative trait, IMHO.
- option 2 : rushing everyone with vultures.
- option 3 : using your early zyggurats to fill yourself up in the EP departement. This would require early (through the oracle?) alphabet to work best as a "Spy economy".

In fact, I see no big contradiction in following all 3 directions.
Of course, without caste system, you can't assign merchants, and without currency you can't trade for gold, so the Spy Economy isn't going to win the game if you overexpand.

I guess protective will just allow you to be a bit lower in the defensive departement.

 

[WTBCzero]

I would like to see the chose religions option on, provided you found one the religions that usually get nowhere (Taoism, Christianity, or Islam).

 

[TM Moot]

Have you tried playing with No Tech Brokering? I find it's a welcome change to the game.

Good shout, I always pick this.

 

[slobberinbear]

So this would allow us a caste system switch along with a longbow rush?

No, you still need CoL for caste system.

I think the benefits of early/cheaper ziggurats are (a) a cheaper, quicker way to get lowered city maintenance and EPs and (b) Gilgamesh can trade/steal CoL instead of beelining it himself.

Ziggurats might cost fewer hammers than courthouses, but they're still expensive.

They're the same cost as one knight. They're an easy 2-pop whip after a few turns of regular building.

Why not the ol' reliable - Metal Casting? Good for trading, tons of beakers, a very reasonable 'get' at Emperor level, plus opens up Machinery for crossbows with those Protective bonuses (since we're trying to leverage Protective).

All true. I just know Sisiutil has done a MC slingshot a few times recently, and I was trying to suggest something that helped with espionage, supported a REX strategy, or gave us a good warmonger civic.

Nothing wrong with MC though.

 

[justkilled]

Sumer = Spycraft

uberfish started a thread about it a while ago:
Sumerian Spy Scam

and you can use protective to aid you, castles give +25% EPs and a trade route so no need for economics for a long time (you can steal it later). So you can make good use of the production bonusses from the protective trait. If you can get stone somehow, these buildings become dirt cheap .

early game techs: BW, Priesthood, alphabet
mid game: Engineering, nationalism (nationhood = +25 Eps, +2 happy), constitution, democracy (spy buildings)

Would be a game with a cool new BtS strategy and a leader well suited for it.

 

[LAnkou]

maybe an axe rush to get some good land, then a spy game would be nice. However, one of the succession game (without patch) showed it was quite unbalanced. If it's still too easy, you will miss the aim of the ALC (demonstrating a leader capacity)...