ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

Sorry for the delay, I finally got back from the weekend from hell just minutes ago. December is a lousy time of year to travel; SW BC got slammed by a snowstorm. We don't handle snow well here--we're just not used to it. I'm amazed my little Toyota Echo saw us through it. All hail front wheel drive.

I'm exhausted, so the friggin' settler stays where he is until tomorrow. Wow! 11 pages. :crazyeye: Why doesn't everybody just take a break from posting here until I put the first round up? ;)

lol, that snow was lame. Was snowing for about 5 or 6 hours down near Everett WA then started raining, it was all gone within a couple of hours. Such is weather in the northwest though.
 
At least one of the following propositions is true:

(1) If Ragnar settles on stone, he is very likely to go extinct before reaching a “posthuman” stage;
(2) Any posthuman civilization is extremely unlikely to run a significant number of simulations of their history (or variations thereof);
(3) Ragnar is almost certainly living in a computer simulation.

It follows that the belief that there is a significant chance that Ragnar will one day become a posthuman who runs simulations of his (or even our own) history is false, unless he is currently living in such a simulation. Therefore, Ragnar should definitely NOT settle on the stone.
 
Round 1: 4000 BC to 3175 BC (33 turns)

The ayes have it: I moved the Settler onto the stone.

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I moved the Scout north on the next turn, to see if there was a compelling reason to move the Settler somewhere else. I didn't see any.

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So, as many of you have been urging, I settled atop the stone.

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My first build was a workboat, as several of you recommended. I also started to research sailing as my first technology. The sooner the Vikings get into the water, I figure, the more historically-accurate this game will be. And given the map type, boats are a priority.

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My Scout was heading north and I decided to continue in that direction, since he'd only have to double back later. I found a tribal village along the way and popped it for gold.

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Meanwhile, Nidaros completed the work boat build. Again as recommended, I began another. Thanks to switching the tiles worked, this one would be completed on the same turn as the capital reached size 3--perfect timing.

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I finished researching my first technology, which also enabled Ragnar's unique building:

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Once the second work boat was completed in Nidaros, I started to build a Worker. The two clams tiles and the extra hammer from the plains hill all combined to accelerate that build.

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Shortly after this, I finished researching my next technology, Mining.

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I chose Masonry next, keeping alive our dream of building the Great Lighthouse.

My Scout found some crabs and some furs up north, unfortunately not nearly in the same vicinity (you'll see the map later). Then he headed south, fighting off a couple of voracious wolves along the way--fortunately nothing more threatening--and found another tribal village. More gold for the treasury!

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123 gold in the treasury is great. With random events in BtS, I find it's a good idea to carry around a "rainy day" balance to give you more options to deal with some of the curve balls the RNG throws at you.

My third goody hut was not quite so generous, yielding a map. You'll see what it revealed further below.

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On the turn that ended the round, my Worker was ready in Nidaros. I scooted him out to build a camp on the capital's sole ivory tile. I chose a ship for the next build:

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Take a look at the map and you'll see why I think it's time to hit the waves.

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So I'm semi-isolated at least, which is both good and bad. If any other civs can be reached by the early, coast-hugging boats, I think it's a priority to head out and meet them. There's also one more tribal village on that island to my west, and I'd like to take the Scout over there to pop it before any barb military units appear and squat on it.

I think one city will have to go 1N of the wine. It will work all those fish tiles and is a second candidate for the Moai Statues, along with the capital. Could be a GP farm, don't you think? There will probably be a land-locked city NE of Nidaros to work the ivory, rice, and cows. And of course I want to explore that island, which has the only available Calendar-enabled resource thus far visible. The furs are going to be problematic given the lack of food nearby. I may have to plunk down a junk city there just to claim them.

Barbs could potentially be a problem thanks to the northern wastes. Two options are to fortify the chokepoint in the tundra or to just take advantage of the stone and build the Great Wall.

We should also consider the possibility that I'm completely isolated. If that's the case, how do I alter my game plans? I don't want this game to go the same way the Mehmed game did. I think contact with other civs is a huge priority for religion, tech trading, and so on. Therefore Optics is priority number one if the Galley shows me to be isolated. I want to plan, in the next round, to direct my research in that general direction in case it's needed--that will generally meaning avoiding techs that are extraneous to that goal. So no running after the Oracle in this game. But what else does it mean? You tell me!
 

Attachments

Optics-->Liberalism (Astronomy)

Minimize other techs like machinery. Trade for machinery once you discover another civ and have a bunch of axes pre-built to upgrade to a horde of berserkers and then go on the rampage.

My 2 cents.
 
Barbs could potentially be a problem thanks to the northern wastes. Two options are to fortify the chokepoint in the tundra or to just take advantage of the stone and build the Great Wall.

A Great Spy spawned from the Great Wall might be useful later on, actually. If you find yourself significantly behind in tech after you break out of isolation, send the Spy to a high-tech civ and steal a couple.

Thanks for the update, I'll have to think about the game more over dinner.
 
Optics-->Liberalism (Astronomy)

Minimize other techs like machinery. Trade for machinery once you discover another civ and have a bunch of axes pre-built to upgrade to a horde of berserkers and then go on the rampage.

:confused: you need machinery to get optics in the first place.
 
I haven't play much LHC, but it was founded in the wake of the Mehmed game, so they have probably come up with some ideas. Beelining Currency, CoL, and CS become important to catch up economically, and Optics is not overtly necessary to victory. I see 3 :) resources so far, all of which are amplified by currency's market, so Happy should be too much of a problem. I would recommend the GW here more to deal with the barbs than anything, although you could settle your first few GS's in your capital to help with EP production, although I'm not sure how that works in isolation. I also count 14 seafood, so Sid's Sushi is a definite thing to think about long-term. otherwise, your proposed cities sound good, So I would scout out more next round, find out if you are truly isolated, and then come back for more advice.
 
krikey, sorry about that. well then i guess you'll have berserkers ready to go.

lightbulbing machinery, paper, ed, etc. could be a good way to go then unless you want to completely avoid GScs and just beeline.
 
My gut feel is that you will find someone with that Galley.

City positions make sense. Might also be someting revealed up near the choke point crab that could make that island worth considering.

The choke point fort is a must if only for ease of naval transport.

GW would be nice but should be able to hold off barbs without.
 
I hope you aren't isolated, it keeps happening to me in my games. One of them, by the time I got to the rest of the world, one of my enemies had vassalized most of it.

I wouldn't worry too much about the barbs, as you say, you just need to fortify a few guys at the choke point. I don't think the GW is necessary, it would pollute the GP pool with GS points. I think you need to keep it clean for bulbing techs on the path to optics, if you're isolated.

Start your economy going, get pottery and cottage up the place. Obviously, your cities should all be coastal (one of those neat maps that I don't have the patience to draw will show up soon enough) for commerce, food and internal trade route reasons. The Great Lighthouse would be a good thing to get if you can swing it into the mix.

I think you should avoid the pyramids, even though you have stone. Masonry enables both that and the Great Lighthouse, and the lighthouse will be much more beneficial on this map, and likely to be a race to get it.

As for tech path, get masonry to start the lighthouse, mining - > bronze working for slavery and maybe to chop to finish up the GL. If you have bronze in your cities, then tech up to pottery for the cottages, writing for libraries, followed by Metal Casting, for the Colossus. If you don't have bronze, well, you can test your luck with either Animal Husbandry or Iron Working, if you don't feel lucky, archers will serve a purpose for now.

After the galley start the usual expansion stuff, settler, warrior, worker, wonder. Grab a nice foody second city site so it can spawn more. Keep the whips flowing as you don't have much happiness right now.
 
You can fog bust with archers. You already have hunting so it's pretty cheap and effective. You can camp out 3 archers around your borders and that'll take care of the barbs. The GW probably isn't worth building as your spies will get distance penalties to perform their missions since nobody is on the same landmass.

I wouldn't settle the fishing village to the NE until later. It's hammer poor so you'll want to send a WB over before settling it (so that you can whip out the other infra later). The cow-rice-ivory looks like a nice second city site. It has strong food and hammer tiles.
 
I recently finished a nice Dom as Monty where I opted early to settle across the pond - it turned out I wasn't isolated as I had thought, but the quick decision to expand on 2 landmasses proved to be instrumental in victory against Germany later on (Prince).

I'd settle north somewhere then make the 3rd city a land grab on the island to the West. Upkeep is managable and could present an opportunity for land war augmented by Viking ships.
 
Grab BW so you can get your next city out (copper) *or* fogbust the whole map so you don't get smeared by barbarian axemen, then prioritize triple-fish for a GP farm. 2-4 GS bulbs will be the difference between isolated Optics + Liberalism-->Astronomy or just Optics.
 
i'm also in the "fortify the choke point" camp, the great wall would be nice, but unnecessary.

if you are isolated, or even semi isolated (only 1 rival), then optics should defiantly be a priority, but dont neglect happiness, you dont seem to have happiness resources in abundance, grabbing monarchy (something that is usually traded for right?) for the wine and hereditary rule may be a good idea (even if it's off your path a bit).
 
Instead of chasing the Great Wall where a fort would do. I would prioritze the Great Lighthouse. Bronze Working will be needed to chop some wood.
 
So I'm semi-isolated at least, which is both good and bad. If any other civs can be reached by the early, coast-hugging boats, I think it's a priority to head out and meet them.

that reminds me of something. BtS changed the rules, and now your triremes and galleys can't cross ocean in someone else's cultural borders, even if you have OB or you're at war. they can still cross ocean in their own culture of course. so your boats might have to stick to "coast-hugging" but theirs don't, which can lead to situations where they can reach your island but you can't get to them, or vice versa. in some games that rule change never matters, but it can be a big factor on this type of map, so you'll want to keep that in mind when dot-mapping if your galleys do find folks whose borders will come anywhere near us.

in one LHC game i thought i was more isolated than i really was. by the time i met shaka that was the situation. there were teensy islands that let his workboats and such use his ocean tiles combined with the coast around them to come all the way over to my land, but he owned the ocean. since i couldn't afford to settle any of those no-resource islands to try to get exactly the right tiles of ocean for myself, i couldn't reach him. if he'd declared war he could have sent whatever he wanted, but i couldn't send anything to him until after optics, and even then my SoD would have to be just missionaries, spies, scouts, explorers, and great people until i learned astro (or won the lottery). well, until he captured one of my cities anyway :lol:. luckily i got him converted to my religion and we were pals, he never did try to beat me up.

that was the first and so far the only time i've ever been in that situation, but it sure made an impression on me. it really felt unfair!
 
Optics-->Liberalism (Astronomy)

Minimize other techs like machinery. Trade for machinery once you discover another civ and have a bunch of axes pre-built to upgrade to a horde of berserkers and then go on the rampage.

My 2 cents.

I would be cautious with beelining to Optics/Astronomy.

Build up a healthy economy and try to establish contact with trieres.
 
ever since ALC20 came out, I played a few games as ragner/archapelowhatever, and here's what I found out.
1. you can REX as much as you want, it's not a problem, you don't even have to build courthouses.
2. since you can REX as much as you want, stonehange is absolutly crucial, since all of your cities will require quick border expansion, and since you have the stone, it would be illogical to pass up. believe me, you don't want to be building monuments/libraries in all your cities.
3. hereditary rule is also crucial, since you only have 1 happy resource, and all your worked tiles will be in the sea, you will grow fast and will have to use, but not abuse slavery.

i'm new to BTS so i didn't focus on great wall (new-dont understand it) and piramids (too expensive), what I did go for, is what ragner should go for.
1. stonehange
2. great lighthouse
3. colossus

the problem with colossus is that it becomes obsolete too quickly, especially if you built it. you will tech like crazy. unless you refuse to learn astronomy. building caravals only, just to meet the other civs is what i did. you may want to replace that wonder with 2 settlers or something if you really need astronomy.

isolated is good. it gives you the chance to build the wonders. every time i was not isolated, i had to early rush an opponent, at the expense of a wonder that ragner should really have.

what i recommend

a) don't build another workboat. instead, build the lighthouse. it will give you +2F, which is also what that workboat will give you.
b) research mystycism next. then build the stonehange right away. the prophet will come when you most need him.
c) don't research agriculture + animal husbantry. it's a waste. let the sea feed you. concentrate on monarchy and optics.
d) build 2 setllers, 1 workboat, 2 warriors, 1 worker in the capitol, then chop for the great lighthouse. you will need to use slavery 1 or 2 times during this. wait until the 15 turn unhappy wears off.

i understand you may be tempted to build a galley very soon, but you can only do this at the expense of a settler/workboat combo, meaning your 3rd city or a wonder. i don't think it's worth it. if you do, make sure you have the lighthouse 1st, it'll give you +1 movement. very important. most likelt you are isolated, which is good, since you can build the vital wonders now.

granaries vs lighthouses
build/chop/whip lighthouses first. always. especially in eraly game. don't bother with granaries.
 
Are you certain The Oracle would delay your beeline for optics? After all, you need Metal Casting for Optics anyhow and the Oracle is cheap. It also unlocks the Colossus early. I think you'll come out ahead even after subtracting the hammers and the two prereq for oracle -techs. You can expand at your leisure anyhow, make fish-city a priority to be your settler spam city and you can get the wonders you want in Nidaros.
 
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