ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[xen01]

I vote for Great Wall in an expansion city, if possible. I personally play multiplayer island maps, archipelagos, and custom continents. The competition for wonders are crazy. I find myself unwilling to risk important early moves towards GLH, oracle, colossus and Grt Lib. Well anyways my favorite tactic would be to generate a few great spies and build lots of spies send them in caravels and voila instant tech leadership on a non-tech sharing game. But I guess its much different on a single player with tech trading option on. I vote for no Great Wall investment on cap city.

 

[ratrangerm]

I think the need for Great Lighthouse will be determined once Sis knows what other islands are out there that can be accessed by Galley, if they are out there. Of course, as others have mentioned, it can still provide some benefit, though not as much if there are no other AI civs nearby.

Doesn't running an SE necessitate going to war to keep the cash flowing early? If there is nobody else who can be accessed by Galley, then an SE won't work as well. I wouldn't commit to running an SE until we know if there's are enough neighbors who can be reached by Galley.

I would agree it's too soon to be building a Galley, though. Get a Worker out so the Ivory can be camped and the happiness cap raised, plus you'll get more commerce from it, and that's certainly benefits a Financial leader.

 

[KMadCandy]

I vote for Great Wall in an expansion city, if possible. ... But I guess its much different on a single player with tech trading option on. I vote for no Great Wall investment on cap city.

it's definitely different!

one note for those voting for the Great Wall: it won't protect fishing boats in our borders from barbs. altho you do get extra GG points in your cultural waters. i guess barbs are color-blind in the water; it really does apply only "on the continent" for protection.

Get a Worker out so the Ivory can be camped and the happiness cap raised, plus you'll get more commerce from it, and that's certainly benefits a Financial leader.

worker's made, and on the ivory now i think .

 

[xen01]

sweet KMadCandy your a fountain of useful information. I can drink from you all day and night. Well anyways thanks for barbs on the coastal info and the spies on the hut info.

 

[Ultimocrat]

To address those who say Pyramids -> Rep. is antithetical to a CE -- so is the Colossus, since you work coast at the expense of developing cottages (and suffer later for it). Most of the Pyramids beaker Rep. gain will be from Nidaros and green dot, which both have incredible food concentration (I'm not suggesting an empire-wide SE, just two impressive early-game specialist cities). Running many merchants would be an interesting strategy to keep the slider near 100%. In addition to the failure to work coast tiles, the Colossus could be a poor choice due to its' shortened lifetime with a rush to Astro.

Slightly OT: Is there a BtS reference guide somewhere, esp. a tech tree? I'd like to give useful input as to alternative techs that could be possibly nabbed with the Oracle, but I gather the CS slingshot, for example, has been nerfed in BtS.

 

[johnny_rico]

Once you find a neighbor, it might be in your best interest to trade it to someone you can conquer later. Or not, you'll definitely want your stone back for Oxford. What about the Hanging Gardens? Or Notre Dame? (it's nice to get that Free Great Aritist anyway) That'll be nice and cheap and the extra health and/or happiness will come in handy. Honestly, I think you're going to want a large population working those water tiles. That is where the advantage is for a financial leader on an archipelago map.

Side note (Warfare with Ragnar)

I played a game with Ragnar not too long ago. I found the amphibious promotion to be huge. What I did when invading was to use naval for bombardment and land some siege units under the protection of a few anti-siege units. Bombard defenses, then attack with cats/trebs (they don't take collateral damage if the AI tries to attack your bombardment stack). Once the units defending the city were weakened, I'd move in with my navigation 2 galleys carrying my berserkers. They move in easily to take the city Bring longbows/X-bows and spears/pikes to hold the new cities. Rinse and repeat.

Also, for the late game, you should think about a HE/Red Cross city. Combined with the free navigation I, you can have a fiercely promoted navy.

 

[Munch]

i really do want to see that island. if it has food, putting a couple cities there ought to make us money not lose it. we'll get intercontinental trade route credit that'll more than make up colony expenses if we put only 2 or 3 cities on the landmass.

question time

Ignoring whether the trade routes are intercontinental or over what distance, do foreign trade routes necessarily yield more than domestic?

If so, then say this start is totally isolated and Sisiutil builds the Great Lighthouse anyway. Shame for those trade routes to be squandered domestically? What if you were to send settlers over to that island and build 2 or 3 cities regardless of how much food there is or the quality of the land, then grant independence to them... Would that give you more benefit from the Great Lighthouse?

 

[Tyrant Roger]

The key problem on this type of map is production. We have more sources of hammers than most of the AI's I predict so that is good. But we still need to build only what we need.

So ... build/chop Stonehenge to get the early border pops and the prophet. Skip the Mids; they cost too much and we want to run a CE with Ragnar not an SE. Keep the military to a minimum with just a guard for the northern border. Build the GLH for the extra commerce; skip the Oracle - it is too expensive with no marble and not industrious. Get monarchy for wine and happy faces where needed.

Get workboat out to look for other lands and to settle fish on east coast when exploration is done.

Long term bee line Optics and pursue Liberalism for Astronomy. I don't know about the GLibrary - it is sort of on the path to Liberalism, but we don't have marble.

Now if we find a rival civ nearby, then that changes everything.

 

[KMadCandy]

Ultimocrat: this thread has a .pdf with just about everything from BtS in it. it's not a clickable tech-tree thing, there may be one of those out there, this is more a "big picture" deal but you might find it useful.

xen01: just promise never to beat me up in MP. which i never play anyway, so it should be no problem

question time

Ignoring whether the trade routes are intercontinental or over what distance, do foreign trade routes necessarily yield more than domestic?

they give a +100% for foreign trade, and can give +150% for sustained peace, that domestic ones don't. but population can give bonuses too. late game when i get sid's sushi my best trade routes are often internal (but intercontinental, usually, due to BtS maps) even if i have OB with everybody, since i love big happy health cities. so i think the answer is, if distance and intercontinental and population are all the same, yes foreign will be better to the best of my knowledge. edit: i looked again, and the population bonus is apparently based on the population of the city you're getting the trade route in, not the city you're trading with. so i'm confused (surprise!). the latest strategy article i could find was pre-BtS tho. i know foreign isn't always automatically better, late game. early, i don't know; when you don't have sailing connections being first to astro is huge so on those maps it does seem better at that stage of the game for sure.

If so, then say this start is totally isolated and Sisiutil builds the Great Lighthouse anyway. Shame for those trade routes to be squandered domestically? What if you were to send settlers over to that island and build 2 or 3 cities regardless of how much food there is or the quality of the land, then grant independence to them... Would that give you more benefit from the Great Lighthouse?

i don't know whether the "years of peace" bonus would apply to a trade route with a vassal? they haven't existed for years, and the peace is mandated

 

[xen01]

I think this ALC would be a perfect time to ask or experiment if investing on early colonies are worth the effort. I myself am not familiar with these aspect of the game and I am interested in mechanics and effects on the overall strategy.

KMadCandy: LOL! I am not into beating but very well verse into spanking. But tsk are you sure you can handle it, lots have done the talk but cannot do the walk.

 

[Ultimocrat]

Thanks for the BtS info, Kmad! My analysis changes substantially with the 'mids costing not 338 h but 500 h! (Stone no longer doubling production speed but only adding 50%, base cost 50 h more in BtS)

GLH is now my vote. Does anybody have experience with using the Oracle to get Philosophy?

 

[Zanttu]

Talking about wonders:
TGLH: We have no time to waste, if we want it. The AI builds it very early on archipelago map. We can't wait and check if we are isolated, if we want it we have to build it ASAP. I personally wouldn't go for it, because it would either delay our expansion or prevent us from getting other useful early wonders.
Oracle-MC-Colossus: Colossus would be very good for this game, because we are going to work many sea tiles in any case. I don't mean we should prefer sea tiles over cottages, but all tiles cannot be cottaged as you all know. For example, if we are going to place a city to the north to claim those furs, the only food resource of the city will be coast tiles with lighthouse (trading post). Our Moai Statues city (the capital would be my candidate) will of course work many water tiles, and we have much seafood available. All those together make many sea tiles worked, so Colossus would for sure be worth it.
Pyramids: As I have said in previous posts, the +3 of early representation is huge, and with stone available The Pyramids is a very lucrative wonder even when not going for SE. In CE you usually have some cities running specialists(a.k.a. GP farms), so the beaker bonus would just be the cream at the top.

And who says we cannot get Oracle-MC-Colossus and pyramids? I would push hard for oracle first and take metal casting, then build the Pyramids and finally the Colossus. I would say this is doable, because AI doesn't prefer metal casting much (if it can't snatch it from oracle) and it's an expensive tech, and AI also builds the Pyramids really late because it's so expensive wonder. The only worry is that what if we don't get the Oracle. If we beeline straight to it, I doubt that AI would get it before us. If this still happens, I would forget Colossus and go straight for the 'mids.

 

[athelious]

Wow...not a typical production weak archipelago map. That is a stroke of luck.

If isolated:

I would grab GLH and the mids, it's probably too late for SH.

Techs to prioritize Alphabet + Optics (trade techs), Astronomy (trade over ocean is huge for GLH + galleons)and Civil Service (Berzerkers). I am guessing you will not want to wait to take Astronomy for free with Liberalism. Berserkers will be less effective by then.

I would consider CoL on the CS path before Optics. Caste can make the Liberalism race a possibility (even with all your sidetracking) with your GP Farm in the NE corner + allow your new cities to pop borders quickly running an artist for a few turns + not to mention courthouses aren't too shabby either for building up your infrastucture + Confucianism, although I am not a huge religious fan at higher levels especially as you don't plan to be isolated for long.

You could get to CoL via priesthood (Oracle --> MC on the way) or Currency and skip that whole bottom religious tree for now.

 

[fizbankovi]

fizbankovi > you cannot place blue and pink at te same time on your dotmap.

sorry pink belongs 1 southwest

 

[Gooblah]

I can't offer much in experience in the usual Archipelago map, but for whatever reason, I have experience in isolation. Especially in Archipelagos.

Let's say we are isolated. A few more islands are discovered, but that's it. Because we are playing as Ragnar, however, we have a few advantages/disadvantages. Here's my strategy:

Settle all the islands. This may sink the economy short-term, but since Ragnar's Financial, we can still tech at a good pace and keep research (for the most part) above 50%. Plus, there are tons of resources. These are key in an isolated Archipelago, since there's less land and whatever exists is usually spaced out.

The Berserkers, for the most part (unless my knowledge of the promotion path is screwed up, which it probably will be), are NOT nerfed. Thankfully, so. Galleons need Astronomy, and enable trading across Ocean. However, the fac that we may be isolated does pose a problem: To transport troops, we need Galleons. To protect the Berserkers in the Galleons, we need Frigates. To get Frigates, we need Chemistry, whose prereq is Gunpowder. Which means that the ability to build Berserkers may be gone. Again, not sure here. If this is the case, build all the Berserkers you can before Gunpowder. If not, here's a new problem: Metals are somewhat scarce in Archipelagos. Not always, but sometimes.

Teching. This isn't as much of a problem as it normally is, since we're Financial, but if we're isolated, well....

Spoiler :

Mehmed. Hopefully our brains suppressed the memories till you opened this spoiler. If not, good for you. If so, hope you don't start spiraling into depression *cough*. Yeah. Don't wanna repeat that. M-m. Nope. Please.

 

[athelious]

I do not agree that we need Frigates to protect our Galleons if we are ahead in that part of the tree. Plus we have our UB paired with the Circumnavigation bonus for super-fast Galleons.

 

[r_rolo1]

@ Gooblah

The game that you were refering ( and " whose name should not be pronouced" ) was not lost due to isolation, like some spoiler games proved.... It was lost because of a somewhat bad ( but highly recommended by the lurkers, including myself ) choice of 2nd city site, that leaded to S man to lose a lot of time because of the barbs. We wouldn't let that happen again...

And berserks are obsoleted by Military Science, not by gunpowder. You can even build them and upgrade them to Rifles just for the fun of buying a promo if you research Rifling without touching in Mil Sci

 

[RockTheCazbah87]

I can't offer much in experience in the usual Archipelago map, but for whatever reason, I have experience in isolation. Especially in Archipelagos.

Let's say we are isolated. A few more islands are discovered, but that's it. Because we are playing as Ragnar, however, we have a few advantages/disadvantages. Here's my strategy:

Settle all the islands. This may sink the economy short-term, but since Ragnar's Financial, we can still tech at a good pace and keep research (for the most part) above 50%. Plus, there are tons of resources. These are key in an isolated Archipelago, since there's less land and whatever exists is usually spaced out.

The Berserkers, for the most part (unless my knowledge of the promotion path is screwed up, which it probably will be), are NOT nerfed. Thankfully, so. Galleons need Astronomy, and enable trading across Ocean. However, the fac that we may be isolated does pose a problem: To transport troops, we need Galleons. To protect the Berserkers in the Galleons, we need Frigates. To get Frigates, we need Chemistry, whose prereq is Gunpowder. Which means that the ability to build Berserkers may be gone. Again, not sure here. If this is the case, build all the Berserkers you can before Gunpowder. If not, here's a new problem: Metals are somewhat scarce in Archipelagos. Not always, but sometimes.

Teching. This isn't as much of a problem as it normally is, since we're Financial, but if we're isolated, well....

Spoiler :

Mehmed. Hopefully our brains suppressed the memories till you opened this spoiler. If not, good for you. If so, hope you don't start spiraling into depression *cough*. Yeah. Don't wanna repeat that. M-m. Nope. Please.

Don't remind me Gooblah!

I like your strategy. If worst comes to worst, then we need to settle big and settle fast.

 

[KMadCandy]

To get Frigates, we need Chemistry, whose prereq is Gunpowder. Which means that the ability to build Berserkers may be gone. Again, not sure here. If this is the case, build all the Berserkers you can before Gunpowder. If not, here's a new problem: Metals are somewhat scarce in Archipelagos. Not always, but sometimes.

you can build a unit until you can build everything that it upgrades to. zerks upgrade to grens and to rifles. so we can build grens and zerks at the same time, as long as we can't build rifles yet. same thing but backwards if we know rifling but don't have gren techs. some games i learn ALine before rifles just so that i can keep building maces with CR promos . once playing zara and getting free drill1/2 on my UU-muskets, i actually reached the future era without rifling. note that i am not recommending that for this game!

another thing you might not have run into yet since BtS is new to you: you don't get grens right away at chemisty now, you need MilSci too, i think it is.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^I prefer to delay grens than rifles.... grens IMHO are a niche unit in BtS, and rifles are the main compositon of that era armies.

About delaying techs just for continuing doing CR maces: been there, done that.... I do it a lot with Ragnar, just to get that juicy Amphi promo on my rifles