ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

[Porphyrius]

The key problem on this type of map is production. We have more sources of hammers than most of the AI's I predict so that is good. But we still need to build only what we need.

So ... build/chop Stonehenge to get the early border pops and the prophet. Skip the Mids; they cost too much and we want to run a CE with Ragnar not an SE. Keep the military to a minimum with just a guard for the northern border. Build the GLH for the extra commerce; skip the Oracle - it is too expensive with no marble and not industrious. Get monarchy for wine and happy faces where needed.

Production is the key issue with the map but not in the manner you describe it.Early on unless an AI is close enough we are left alone to REX. So theres no haste to fully close up the land or get border pops as in other games. Getting the outer ring fishes in amny cases is faster/easier via SH but that hardly makes it worth it.

Later on, when we get astronomy and focus on units we need lots of though. For ships and berserks alike. That means workshop may be more worth it than cottage. Remember the goal is to utilize traits to win a game not to maximize the traits effects at any cost.

I also dont think HR is a better opt to representation mostly because we really have no use for land base military for a good while. We need to divert from buldings/wonders to it and pay as well.
If we were to head straight for optics especially boosted by the oracle i think we can net things like alphabet,currency,CoL via trades. But oracle with no marble remains a risk.

As KMC says delaying rifles gets CR grens with the amphibious promotion through berserks. Now consider we net SoL as well from military science and i think its the way to go. Yes theres always drafting but using aforementioned promoted grens in this map is way better than upping quantities a bit.

PS: Scouting the seas is a hard priority and a wboat is cheaper and will certainly have a use. A galley is better off in time to place settler #3 on the small island.

 

[Turinturambar]

Since it seems that there is no enemy nation nearby that can reach you, I´d prioritize the great wall. That way you won´t need to build ANY military units except for peacekeeping warriors (and the odd settler escort) until the AIs reach astronomy. The spy points are a bit annoying, but you could burn the first two on golden ages.

 

[Loknar]

This is really a typical case where you're forced to make a critical decision about where to settle without having all the information you would want. Does anybody else find it weird that even though the "Dawn of Man" screen says your people have wandering around as nomads forever they only have knowledge of a small part of the world?

(I also do. Would be nice to have some free moves before settling, say 3, btw.)

I find settling on the stone more attractive.

Hope the quotations are self-explanatory. If I'd play this game myself, I'd reload the start without hesitation (I'm not that strong, morally, you see.), because now looking at the map I feel it was awfully wrong to have settled on the stone. I also find the starting position as a hole is rather crappy except for that miraculous stone. (I regenerated around 50 times to get some Petrified Fish capital in a Monarch game, but didn't succeed.)

I would at any rate prepare for being truly isolated - for reasons already stated . You need a religion and must keep pace techwise. You have 2-3 good GP farms (though with small production) - and not too much cottageable land - , so I would fill them with scientists to solve problem no 2. Moreover, I would head for some crucial wonders that help in that respect, like HG or GL. But first and above all:

I like Ultimocrats dotmap, after moving the yellow city 1W and placing a new one on the plains spot 1W of the grassland hill to claim the clams and ivory. I would also settle a junk city to claim those furs and as many coast tiles as possible. I wouldn't build TGLighthouse, because there's not going to be much of trading post-astronomy, and AI tends to build it really early on this kind of maps. Pyramids should be more of a priority, and some kind of hybrid economy by running representation could work well. That's because there is no point in running HR if there's no neighbours and no need for military. First you should maybe push for oracle for the MC-slingshot. Then Pyramids+Colossus.

My plan would be to build two cities, probably Fishy Grapes which then founds Ultimocrat's Beef Sushi with minimal military to keep barbs at bay. Build a galley to scout for good cottageable land (N-NW of silks seems the most attractive spot so far), then build the Pyramids in Nidaros. Chop Oracle in Beef Sushi (Emperor?) for CoL if it seems unlikely you can found "Confucianism"* in time without, otherwise MC. I think if the Oracle gets ready before the Pyramids, you could also found an early "Christianity"*. I would carefully manage my GPs - only GEs, GScis and GPs are of use atm, it seems to me. (What would you want the GW and GSpies for, exactly? You only need one stack to secure the north and two scouts to patrol the south. Your estate has no dangerous back yard, you know.) Tech priorities would then be MC and Writing besides Priesthood and religious techs.

* Contrary to Sisiutil, I find the "Choose Religion" option totally weird. I always imagine stern druids sitting in a circle and cogitating upon the secrets of Polytheism, finally shouting: "There is no other god then Allah!"

 

[KMadCandy]

Since it seems that there is no enemy nation nearby that can reach you, I´d prioritize the great wall. That way you won´t need to build ANY military units except for peacekeeping warriors (and the odd settler escort) until the AIs reach astronomy.

we don't know for sure about real civs, and even if true we need boats for barb protection since GWall doesn't work as protection in the water. they might ignore our fishing boats but i doubt it. and i really don't want the spy points in this case, so i'm biased against it.

About delaying techs just for continuing doing CR maces: been there, done that.... I do it a lot with Ragnar, just to get that juicy Amphi promo on my rifles

yup. and GLH/colossus in the same city is good for GM odds, they're great wonders for ragnar, and GMs are good for upgrade money if you're poor. he's so fun!

Spoiler silliness for r_rolo1 :

^^I prefer to delay grens than rifles.... grens IMHO are a niche unit in BtS, and rifles are the main compositon of that era armies.

welllllllllll, i tend to not go to war in that era, i'm just ultra-over-preparing for war someday, so the rifles vs. grens comparison now isn't an issue for oddball me. and grens come with blitz. blitz is good for ummmmm, my highly-promoted caravels that are fighting the privateers that of course are not mine. and to make an MA if i'm popping a couple GGs from huts.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^ *giggle* You should stop modding your BtS about that GG from Huts thing....

 

[Sisiutil]

Lots of contradictory advice as usual.

First off I think I should abandon the Galley for now. It seems to me that getting a second city going should be a priority, so I should switch to a Settler instead. The pink dot on Munch's dotmap (2N 1E of the rice) looks like a good spot, though it will need a border pop and Agriculture and Animal Husbandry to really get going. (Furthermore, I should build a Trading Post before building boats.)

The Oracle seems very risky to me since I didn't start with Mysticism and don't have marble. I still think it's a diversion. Remember that this is Emperor level; you have to pick your wonders very carefully. The Great Lighthouse is a possibility, and in the long term the Pyramids are as well. The +3 in five cities is huge in the early game regardless of what type of economy you're running.

For research, I'm thinking of Archery next, frankly, to defend from the barbarian hordes from the north that are imminent. Bronze Working, Mysticism, Agriculture, and AH are then likely priorities.

 

[oyzar]

You don't need ALL the cities by the sea. If you put it on the plains hill it will be a very good production city that can in the lategame be a real monster that don't actually have to work any sea titles. Almost every other spot is coastal so it is not a huge need that this is too. Only major benefit would be harbor + if you are eventually planing great lighthouse, however the higher early game production potential + the better long term titles makes settling on the plains hill far superior.

 

[Uncle Istvan]

I think I would go for the Great Wall. I just don't want to see barbarians spoil 17 pages.

 

[Jet]

"Optics is priority number one if the Galley shows me to be isolated. I want to plan, in the next round, to direct my research in that general direction in case it's needed--that will generally meaning avoiding techs that are extraneous to that goal. So no running after the Oracle in this game. But what else does it mean? You tell me!"

In Nidaros: Warrior x 2, Stonehenge, Settler, Trading Post, GLH, Pyramids.
After Mysticism and Worker techs, get key economic techs: BW, Writing, Math, Currency, Calendar.
Then drive to Optics: MC, IW, Compass, Machinery, Optics.

Stone Stonehenge is very efficient - the cost of two Monuments - and free ones are great for fishing villages that don't have seafood in the first ring. Put the second city on Rice/Cows (either tile) for production and fogbusting. Let Stonehenge give you the Monument, work Rice/Cows/Mine, and use your trait by starting the city with something like Warrior, Barracks, Warrior x 3. Warriors are enough: +50% from fortification and Cover reduces an attacking Archer to strength 2, and then you get Combat I and the vs-barb bonus. (Alternatively, if you put it on the coast you'd get the Stone right away, and with a Monument from Stonehenge you could immediately start a run on the Great Wall for the price of a Barracks and 6 Warriors.)

Math+Currency+Calendar is the best prioritity. Math gives you a shot at the Gardens (very rushable in Nidaros), helpful for the pop, the health, and the Engineer source for a Machinery bulb. Calendar gives you another happy. Currency is golden with 3-4 Market resources and high commerce from Financial tiles and hopefully the GLH. 3H/0H from Representation and 6H from Markets is enough to get you to Optics.

Besides the Aesthetics path, I'm suggesting you skip the religious path.
* Founding a religion. No, maximize your trade opportunities and inter-AI friction. You have sufficient happy. You don't need a lot of production, you don't need a lot of XP until later, and (in this scenario) you have no neighbors to spread your religion to.
* CoL. No Caste System, even with 2 high food cities and the Pyramids? No, it's not necessary. You'll get Library+Market+Forge in your two food cites soon enough. Just whip the buildings and run maximum, mixed specialists in those two cities - and for that reason, build the Moai somewhere else. Use Slavery for empire-wide production. Maybe some time after Optics, when most cities have already whipped key buildings, then you can switch and the two specialist cities can rush-starve one Scientist each for Liberalism bulbs. No Courthouses? No, you don't need the espionage, and for wealth you can rely on commerce, priority Markets, and settled Prophets and Merchants instead. No Bureaucracy? No, COL+CS is too expensive, and by that time Nidaros should be using its food surplus to run Representation specialists anyway.
* Monarchy, even with the Wine. Complements the Pyramids. Skips 2 prerequisite techs.

Great People before Optics:
* Merchants (until you're close to Optics) and Prophets can be settled with Representation to help your economy.
* An Engineer would be excellent for lightbulbing Machinery. Between the reasonably timely MC, the Pyramids, and hopefully the Gardens, you have a shot.
* Scientists: Nidaros is not the world's greatest science city, but it's good, and I would make it so and plan on Oxford there. I'd also plan on Globe Theater, giving you an alternative to capital MP spam that works with Representation or Police State, gives your economy resilience to war, and partly compensates for the lack of cottages by improving trade routes. So Academy first, then either settle, bulb Optics, or save for a Liberalism bulb.

 

[popejubal]

Since it seems that there is no enemy nation nearby that can reach you, I´d prioritize the great wall. That way you won´t need to build ANY military units except for peacekeeping warriors (and the odd settler escort) until the AIs reach astronomy. The spy points are a bit annoying, but you could burn the first two on golden ages.

Spy points annoying???

Instead of burning the first two on golden ages, you could also wait until Optics, build a Caravel and then infiltrate the tech leader and steal absolutely every tech that they've ever even heard of.

Great Spies are the single most amazing GP you could have in the early game. It's only in the late game that they become less impressive and even then, they're good for golden ages, Scotland Yard (and you can have more than one SY) and even the occasional infiltration to steal a tech.

 

[TheArchduke]

DO NOT build the Great Lighthouse if you don´t have any early neighbours. Whom are you going to trade with???

The only wonder imo is worth it in isolation is the Pyramids.

 

[Julian Delphiki]

Many wonders do wonders in isolation, as it's often good time for wonderspam (not here i though, i think).

 

[Jet]

DO NOT build the Great Lighthouse if you don´t have any early neighbours. Whom are you going to trade with???

Himself, for +2 or more commerce per city.

 

[CivCorpse]

with the high level of seafood that you have, + the wine, I'd say go for monarchy and don't bother with the pyramids to begin with.
If after 4 cities, you have no good thing to build, it's still time to get them.

There is little land available to cottage so a CE is not really feasable, especially with no trading parteners...if we are going to run s SE with all the food available in the capital and Blue? the pyramids would be a major boost

 

[Refar]

Infiltration Mission after Optics looses much of its appeal as the techs become more expensive.

The best use for great spy's in isolated start are most definitely 2 scotland yards. (Or a Scotland Yard over a Settled GSpy - thats a bit inferior long term, but great pre Constitution.)

I think however, that Sis will not go for the GW. Not much land for Barbs to spawn, fogbusting will probably be cheaper. Also as pointed out, GW does not protect Seafood.

 

[Guardian_PL]

Ppl seem to forget that it's not Monarch anymore, it's Emperor. Great Lighthouse, altough I think is necessary will take a loong time to build. Joining this with Oracle+Colossus slingshot is no-no. Capital city have a phant, one hill and two forests for shield. It's not a lot.

We'd want to beeline to Astronomy for lucrative overseas trade routes with GLH, but Colossus with it's great bonus (with it and Financial even ocean fish will give 3) still looks nice, cause Optics will give us caravel to find first targets/friends/friendly targets ,and You can delay Astro as long as You like (as it was said before GLH+Colossus GM points will come in handy).
But I wouldn't count on GLH, Oracle and Colossus. Not on Emperor, with low-shield capital and not being Industrious.

You're a sailor Sis, go for sea goodies! Skip Oracle. Stonehenge would give You a bit of peace with sending workers for building monuments (not that it's a great problem while running Slavery ;P), so because You have stone - why not? And Great Priest points (with possibility of having a shrine in the future) can reaally help on the beginning, +2 and +5 often is exactly what one needs to stay on with tech rate

Now, as for techs - GO for Bronze Working. Slavery will help with production tremendously, I personally tend to go for it as soon as I can. If no bronze will be found, than Iron Working will be needed, 'cause even if isolated You have to have one of those two (better iron than bronze, right? ). And that with Pottery will allow Metal Casting for Colossus

PS. Second city I'd place inland, 1W of cows - red dot on Ultimocrat map, rest of cities will be coastal as it should be. It's simply best location for it, hills for better production, cow - great resource for new city - straight (I know, AH first, so simply instead of a Settler grow city a bit and build Stonehenge first). Third would be green dot 1N of Wine, it asks itself for Moai.

As for Pyramids from viino below - two expensive wonders for a non-Industrious? Too much. Colossus/Henge is more doable. Hereditary rule will be really handy when Sis will be building up army, and we need citizens to work all those shiny goldy tiles. I say no to 'mids.

 

[viinno]

Is there any debate?
Isolated, poor cottaging ground, stone. Pyramids is the only way forward.

 

[carl corey]

I'd also go for Pyramids, with the Stone they seem the best option. As others have said, TGLH isn't gonna be worth much if you're isolated. IMO if there were another civ nearby they would have sent a workboat already to find you, but I might be wrong. Anyway, what's clear is that if you want TGLH you'll need it asap. Build a settler then start on it.

But as I said, I'd go for the Pyramids, with the option of waiting for a GE from them to build the Great Library for example. That would mean delaying Maoi Statues to be sure of getting the GE. I'd be willing to wait but to each his own. I think I'll play a shadow game this weekend.

 

[Munch]

First off I think I should abandon the Galley for now. It seems to me that getting a second city going should be a priority, so I should switch to a Settler instead. The pink dot on Munch's dotmap (2N 1E of the rice) looks like a good spot, though it will need a border pop and Agriculture and Animal Husbandry to really get going. (Furthermore, I should build a Trading Post before building boats.)

You don't have Mysticism either, if I remember rightly, so I'd avoid that pink spot for now, and instead go for the inland city on the purple spot as the second settlement (3E, 2N of Nidaros). Settle the coastal locations once you've got some means of border-popping, as most of the seafood resources are one border-pop away. However, without yet having Agriculture, no city site seems perfect!

 

[Indiansmoke]

Lots of contradictory advice as usual.

First off I think I should abandon the Galley for now. It seems to me that getting a second city going should be a priority, so I should switch to a Settler instead. The pink dot on Munch's dotmap (2N 1E of the rice) looks like a good spot, though it will need a border pop and Agriculture and Animal Husbandry to really get going. (Furthermore, I should build a Trading Post before building boats.)

The Oracle seems very risky to me since I didn't start with Mysticism and don't have marble. I still think it's a diversion. Remember that this is Emperor level; you have to pick your wonders very carefully. The Great Lighthouse is a possibility, and in the long term the Pyramids are as well. The +3 in five cities is huge in the early game regardless of what type of economy you're running.

For research, I'm thinking of Archery next, frankly, to defend from the barbarian hordes from the north that are imminent. Bronze Working, Mysticism, Agriculture, and AH are then likely priorities.

I would skip the galley for now as well.

I would go bronze working first though instead of archery. In emperor you usually have time if you don't get copper to go Archery then. You can also use a warrior as a fog buster so that barbs spawn in a fair distance from capital.

The Great Lighthouse is a possibility but I would focus on settlers and then Pyramids + hamging Gardens.