ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Verge
Let's hug it out
Are you guys sure the stone is on a river? It looks to me like it's diagonal of one, and I don't know if that nets you a +2 health or not...?
Yes, that counts.
Calder
Warlord
I think you will lose the health bonus on the stone. Just want to edit my previous post (#120) to add that of course Ragnar is financial, so the commerce bonuses I stated does not include Financial's bonuses, eg, +3 commerce on each ivory tile not 2, +3 commerce on each clam tile not 2. So at size 7 thats 16 commerce, not 12.
Verge
Let's hug it out
No, you won't. The tile is on river corner, which is equal to river side.
Great! Once I'm not late to the party!
Generally, I find Archipelago maps are sufficiently food rich and many cities have good food and not much else. I also find that this goes well with gruesome slavery and a specialist or hybrid economy (if you have some nice territory that actually is some).
The place where the settler stands has too many plains (if I see that right) and not quite enough food for my taste and that goal. If the scout reveals some additional food 2SW, perhaps moving S could be ok, but else, I find settling on the stone more attractive.
I would tech to Masonry and Sailing and build the second city coastal. Then I would start building the Pyramids in the capital and the Great Wall in the second city. If you succeed with both, you have an easy start and maybe can even build the Great Lighthouse with your first GE (don't know on Emperor). After that, I would produce only GEs and GMs in the capital (merging in the GMs and perhaps even a GE later), foregoing the Maori Statues until later, when GEs give not quite such a boost anymore. Colossus should be built in the capital too. Of course this plan is only feasible if you have no mad neighbour on the next corner of the now unknown.
Moving the palace quite soon might prove beneficial, especially if you are on some far end of a larger landmass. The stone capital could then be transformed into a GP farm with nice levee production later, leaving the Bureaucracy bonus to some more adequate city. And if you found a religion in the course of the game, Nidaros could even become a shrine city (merging GMs would then be a really good idea, I think.
).
Generally, I find Archipelago maps are sufficiently food rich and many cities have good food and not much else. I also find that this goes well with gruesome slavery and a specialist or hybrid economy (if you have some nice territory that actually is some).
The place where the settler stands has too many plains (if I see that right) and not quite enough food for my taste and that goal. If the scout reveals some additional food 2SW, perhaps moving S could be ok, but else, I find settling on the stone more attractive.
This seems right.
I would tech to Masonry and Sailing and build the second city coastal. Then I would start building the Pyramids in the capital and the Great Wall in the second city. If you succeed with both, you have an easy start and maybe can even build the Great Lighthouse with your first GE (don't know on Emperor). After that, I would produce only GEs and GMs in the capital (merging in the GMs and perhaps even a GE later), foregoing the Maori Statues until later, when GEs give not quite such a boost anymore. Colossus should be built in the capital too. Of course this plan is only feasible if you have no mad neighbour on the next corner of the now unknown.
Moving the palace quite soon might prove beneficial, especially if you are on some far end of a larger landmass. The stone capital could then be transformed into a GP farm with nice levee production later, leaving the Bureaucracy bonus to some more adequate city. And if you found a religion in the course of the game, Nidaros could even become a shrine city (merging GMs would then be a really good idea, I think.
).
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
Looking at the start, A blue circle appears on the Hill 1 south of the far SW clams, and it's linked to your present position via coastline. The other blue circle is on the grassland tile 1 North of the flood plains.
Settling on stone LOSES 2 hammers from Quarry, 1 hammer and 2 commerace (financial) for Ele missed, to gain 2 clams. But you NEED A CITY size 4 to work all clams, growth to size 4 is going to be SAME!!! IE 2 clams worked.
AFTER SIZE 3, does it start to differentiate, keep working clams (if settle on stone) for less hammers, or work Ele's (settle in place) for extra hammers. Early tech's would and should be Masonary, with worker, to build Quarry, 5 hammers and camp, 3 hammers. 8 hammers the stone site doesn't have.
Slower growth, but happy cap is 6 either way, and whipping wonders is EXPENSIVE IN POP, So why not whip a granary, work 2 clams, 2 ele's, quarry, and floodplain.
YOu must remember, alot of the hammer discussion happens in the early bc's or ad's around year Zero. Pyramids, GLH etc. Hammers early and hammers NOW. Grow to happy cap +1 or 2, whip away those, for a forge and do Colossus sling shot from Oracle.
All these wonders need to be BUILT, BEFORE bonuses happen.
Wonders TO BUILD;
Stonehenge (border pops'), Great wall ( no barbs, and workers will work on border WITH barbs next to them), GLH, (its a sea based map) Pyramids (rep happyness) and Oracle (colossus sling shot), tech to Math's, Hanging Gardens (Pop +1 in cities)
Unless early Neighbour, we won't have any reason for wars, Spam COASTAL CITIES, financialize the waters around the coast, Save Maoi statutes for another city, Here, Ironworks, National epic? (Great engineers) due to hammer scarcity.
Settling on stone LOSES 2 hammers from Quarry, 1 hammer and 2 commerace (financial) for Ele missed, to gain 2 clams. But you NEED A CITY size 4 to work all clams, growth to size 4 is going to be SAME!!! IE 2 clams worked.
AFTER SIZE 3, does it start to differentiate, keep working clams (if settle on stone) for less hammers, or work Ele's (settle in place) for extra hammers. Early tech's would and should be Masonary, with worker, to build Quarry, 5 hammers and camp, 3 hammers. 8 hammers the stone site doesn't have.
Slower growth, but happy cap is 6 either way, and whipping wonders is EXPENSIVE IN POP, So why not whip a granary, work 2 clams, 2 ele's, quarry, and floodplain.
YOu must remember, alot of the hammer discussion happens in the early bc's or ad's around year Zero. Pyramids, GLH etc. Hammers early and hammers NOW. Grow to happy cap +1 or 2, whip away those, for a forge and do Colossus sling shot from Oracle.
All these wonders need to be BUILT, BEFORE bonuses happen.
Wonders TO BUILD;
Stonehenge (border pops'), Great wall ( no barbs, and workers will work on border WITH barbs next to them), GLH, (its a sea based map) Pyramids (rep happyness) and Oracle (colossus sling shot), tech to Math's, Hanging Gardens (Pop +1 in cities)
Unless early Neighbour, we won't have any reason for wars, Spam COASTAL CITIES, financialize the waters around the coast, Save Maoi statutes for another city, Here, Ironworks, National epic? (Great engineers) due to hammer scarcity.
Did you make a pact with the RNG devil or something? In any game that would be an excellent start, but with Ragnar, on archipelago, it's immense.
Settle on the stone for one of the fastest starts you'll ever experience. Any of the four clams could still be worked by subsequent cities if necessary, and the palace can always be moved elsewhere if you turn this city into a monster GP-farm or Globe whipping/drafting factory.
It would also be more likely to free up extra space for more cities on your home island than if you settle in place, imo. This could prove very important if you turn out to be isolated with limited land (which would compensate for the start, I suppose).
The plan? Other than workboat first and tech to BW, we need to see more of the map. With the information we have, a Snaaty-style settler & worker rush to set up a strong base very early on (the commerce from the clam tiles will cover the costs of an early REX) looks the most likely choice to me.
As for wonders, the Pyramids are always welcome, though even with stone they do slow your start considerably, so it depends on what the rest of the neighbourhood looks like. Later on, Angkor Wat could be a useful wonder (provided you get a couple of religions to spread to your cities), especially if production looks like being a major problem.
Settle on the stone for one of the fastest starts you'll ever experience. Any of the four clams could still be worked by subsequent cities if necessary, and the palace can always be moved elsewhere if you turn this city into a monster GP-farm or Globe whipping/drafting factory.
It would also be more likely to free up extra space for more cities on your home island than if you settle in place, imo. This could prove very important if you turn out to be isolated with limited land (which would compensate for the start, I suppose).
The plan? Other than workboat first and tech to BW, we need to see more of the map. With the information we have, a Snaaty-style settler & worker rush to set up a strong base very early on (the commerce from the clam tiles will cover the costs of an early REX) looks the most likely choice to me.
As for wonders, the Pyramids are always welcome, though even with stone they do slow your start considerably, so it depends on what the rest of the neighbourhood looks like. Later on, Angkor Wat could be a useful wonder (provided you get a couple of religions to spread to your cities), especially if production looks like being a major problem.
Airefuego
King
Subscribing. New ALC! Woohoo!
PS I vote for Settle in Place - 4 clams is overkill for one city...
PS I vote for Settle in Place - 4 clams is overkill for one city...
Airefuego
King
I think people saw this statement as a challenge...
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=252801
ranion
Chieftain
i'm of two minds about where to settle, both on the stone and in place are fantastic city sites, and i think that you're correct in assuming that scouting 1 SE of the settler before making the decision is defiantly the way to go (in fact posting just that screenie might be worth about a dozen pages or so more debate...). short term (after getting over the loss of 1 turn for moving onto the hill right?) the stone is the better site, with the immediate production bonus to help you get the capital off the ground, and the 4 clams fueling your whip for quite some time you'd be in pretty good shape. Long term, the bonus from the elephants, extra hill(s?) and land tiles in general will probably (almost certainly) pay off, but im too lazy to actually do the math to show what the full benefit could be.
tech wise, military is certainly far from a priority at this point. Barbs shouldn't be much to fear on an archipelago almost at all (at least in my relatively limited experience they aren't) and your enemies, if there are any near by will be easy to choke off, or better yet on a different land mass and require boats to get to. Sailing should be on your list of things to prioritize, not just for your UB, but for navy in general. Remember the tag line for the archipelago map type: Powerful navies not optional. beyond sailing (while important it doesn't necessarily need to be first) you should be looking to masonry (which means mining or mysticism) for the GLH, opening up your stone, and for access to Monotheism and the religion that goes with it.
finally, i would build a work boat to start, although what you follow it up with should depend on what you get researched and what else shows up in the BFC i would think that a second work boat followed by either your first settler or a worker will likely be the way things turn out, regardless of where you settle.
to close, you know what you're doing better than i do, i havn't updated to BTS or played beyond prince yet (granted i win about 70% and i'm probably ready to move up), but i know a good start when i see one, and i understand at least somewhat how to work from it (or the mistakes i make because of it). from what we can see this should work out well for you.
wow, that was rather verbose for my first ALC related post... i'll probably quietly go back to lurking for several months before posting again like i usually do on forums like this. several other people usually beat me to the punch anyways.
tech wise, military is certainly far from a priority at this point. Barbs shouldn't be much to fear on an archipelago almost at all (at least in my relatively limited experience they aren't) and your enemies, if there are any near by will be easy to choke off, or better yet on a different land mass and require boats to get to. Sailing should be on your list of things to prioritize, not just for your UB, but for navy in general. Remember the tag line for the archipelago map type: Powerful navies not optional. beyond sailing (while important it doesn't necessarily need to be first) you should be looking to masonry (which means mining or mysticism) for the GLH, opening up your stone, and for access to Monotheism and the religion that goes with it.
finally, i would build a work boat to start, although what you follow it up with should depend on what you get researched and what else shows up in the BFC i would think that a second work boat followed by either your first settler or a worker will likely be the way things turn out, regardless of where you settle.
to close, you know what you're doing better than i do, i havn't updated to BTS or played beyond prince yet (granted i win about 70% and i'm probably ready to move up), but i know a good start when i see one, and i understand at least somewhat how to work from it (or the mistakes i make because of it). from what we can see this should work out well for you.
wow, that was rather verbose for my first ALC related post... i'll probably quietly go back to lurking for several months before posting again like i usually do on forums like this. several other people usually beat me to the punch anyways.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
According to many in the pre-game thread, the opposite is true. Many people advised me that AggAI on an archipelago map would be a walk in the park, so I decided to hold off on it until next game, with Shaka.
I'll move the Scout and post the results shortly.
It seems to me that if I move onto the stone, I'm committing myself to building the Moai Statues in the capital. Not that I'm opposed, I'm just pointing that out. In addition, I have a concern that by hogging all the clams the capital will be negating other potential city sites.
But I'll move the Scout before deciding.
futurehermit
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 3, 2006
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i'm concerned about this as well. those other two clams could support two other city sites potentially...
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Starting Position, Continued
No extra food, but another jumbo. By the way, I pointed at the stone to show that it clearly has the fresh water bonus, as there was some debate about this going on. I think they made a change to the way the game evaluates fresh water in one of the Warlords patches so that diagonal tiles count. If you're playing an earlier version of the game, it may explain the confusion.
I'm leaning towards settling on stone now since no food resource was revealed--quite the opposite, in fact; of the three settle-in-place tiles revealed, 2 are plains tiles and one is a grassland tile that can't be irrigated pre-Civil Service. 11 coastal tiles, 4 of them with seafood, is pretty awesome for a Moai Statues city.
This would also mean that there are 2 ivory tiles (and some hills) to provide production for additional cities, which several of you have pointed out is a big concern on archipelago maps. The only concern is finding food for them.
Tomorrow is my company's Xmas party, so I won't be playing and posting the first round until Sunday at the earliest. Plenty of time for another seven pages of debate!
No extra food, but another jumbo. By the way, I pointed at the stone to show that it clearly has the fresh water bonus, as there was some debate about this going on. I think they made a change to the way the game evaluates fresh water in one of the Warlords patches so that diagonal tiles count. If you're playing an earlier version of the game, it may explain the confusion.
I'm leaning towards settling on stone now since no food resource was revealed--quite the opposite, in fact; of the three settle-in-place tiles revealed, 2 are plains tiles and one is a grassland tile that can't be irrigated pre-Civil Service. 11 coastal tiles, 4 of them with seafood, is pretty awesome for a Moai Statues city.
This would also mean that there are 2 ivory tiles (and some hills) to provide production for additional cities, which several of you have pointed out is a big concern on archipelago maps. The only concern is finding food for them.
Tomorrow is my company's Xmas party, so I won't be playing and posting the first round until Sunday at the earliest. Plenty of time for another seven pages of debate!
InvisibleStalke
Emperor
Settle on the stone. This is Ragnar, king of the seas. A bureaucracy capital with Moai statues, solid income from financial on the coast should be fantastic. Ragnar should get a lot of his production and wealth from the sea.
Add colossus and great lighthouse if you can. Pyramids maybe but I would skip stonehenge in favour of the great wall. An early great spy means the ability to drop all cultural defense in several cities - great for a coastal attack strategy with beserkers.
If you don't start on the stone - I think I'll download and do it myself
Add colossus and great lighthouse if you can. Pyramids maybe but I would skip stonehenge in favour of the great wall. An early great spy means the ability to drop all cultural defense in several cities - great for a coastal attack strategy with beserkers.
If you don't start on the stone - I think I'll download and do it myself
This would be such a killer dutch start its not even funny 
But you're still financial so go 1W and grab sailing for a lighthouse, moai statues are a given considering you've got a capital that can run a ton of coast tiles with stone right under it. In the longrun, extra specialists from the clams will outweigh longterm production benefits and hammers on stone hill give you more than enough hammers early game. Plus you've got room for at least one more city there, especially once resources start popping up. You've got ivory so it's not a sure thing that you'll get another military resource, but entirely possible.
Oh, and do an oracle run for metal casting if at all possible, you definatley want the collossus especially considering its archipellago and almost every city you have will be coastal.
But you're still financial so go 1W and grab sailing for a lighthouse, moai statues are a given considering you've got a capital that can run a ton of coast tiles with stone right under it. In the longrun, extra specialists from the clams will outweigh longterm production benefits and hammers on stone hill give you more than enough hammers early game. Plus you've got room for at least one more city there, especially once resources start popping up. You've got ivory so it's not a sure thing that you'll get another military resource, but entirely possible.Oh, and do an oracle run for metal casting if at all possible, you definatley want the collossus especially considering its archipellago and almost every city you have will be coastal.
ranion
Chieftain
well, well, well. an extra plains/river/jumbo, that means you get 1 more tile that is essentially a grasslands hill+ if you settle in place, or a second (and third?) city with the jumbos if you decide to move 1 w. food and production are the biggest issues with archipelagos, especially when you're financial and you get 3 commerce from coast before the colossus. and given your start, you have either both in your capital, or lots of food in the capital and lots of production elsewhere. if it were an option (and maybe it is, i'll get to it in a second) then trying to see what there is for food for second/third cities before founding the capital may pay off in the long run. lets say you move the settler to the hill now. this takes the turn and gives you 1 more move of the scout to see whats around you before you have to settle. while this means that you take an extra turn to settle the capital, you only really "lose" a turn if you have to move back to the original site. Settling on the stone loses nothing because you would have had to make this move anyways, and it allows you to find out whether or not you would screw yourself in the long run by settling in place regardless of where you move to (am i making any sense at all?). as much as i hate to lose a turn for the capital, you've played out some scouting with the settler in a previous alc or two iirc, and it worked out well for you too (again, iirc)
really, it may not matter much, but regardless of what you do, your capital is going to be monstrous, and your second/third/fourth cities are going to suffer for it. limited space makes for limited options and your ability to find out what your options are is limited by the necessity of founding that capital asap.
P.S. Wow, its good timing that you responded so soon after my first alc post or i probably wouldn't have been willing to add this little tidbit.
really, it may not matter much, but regardless of what you do, your capital is going to be monstrous, and your second/third/fourth cities are going to suffer for it. limited space makes for limited options and your ability to find out what your options are is limited by the necessity of founding that capital asap.
P.S. Wow, its good timing that you responded so soon after my first alc post or i probably wouldn't have been willing to add this little tidbit.
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