ALC Game 20: Vikings/Ragnar

I do not have BTS, so my opinion is tainted by ignorace.

The intent of the ALC games is to play to the strengths of the civ (Agg/Fin in this case). Agg civs are not wonder spammers. They want hammers for barracks and troops. Hammers are harder to come by in an archipelago map. The Fin trait is better with more river tiles than coastal tiles. Therefore, settling in place plays to this civ's strengths.

GLH and Colossus should be tried for, perhaps stonehenge for border expansion, but wonders should be strictly limited. That's a lot of hammers need for boats and troops.

Do you still get the +1 movement bonus for circumnavigating the globe? If so, I'd try hard for that as well.
 
I do not have BTS, so my opinion is tainted by ignorace.

The intent of the ALC games is to play to the strengths of the civ (Agg/Fin in this case). Agg civs are not wonder spammers. They want hammers for barracks and troops. Hammers are harder to come by in an archipelago map. The Fin trait is better with more river tiles than coastal tiles. Therefore, settling in place plays to this civ's strengths.

GLH and Colossus should be tried for, perhaps stonehenge for border expansion, but wonders should be strictly limited. That's a lot of hammers need for boats and troops.

Do you still get the +1 movement bonus for circumnavigating the globe? If so, I'd try hard for that as well.

YEs, the circumnavigation bonus still exists.
 
WOO! ALC 20! :D

If we're talking wonders, the G'Lighthouse and the Colossus would be nice. SoZ maybe?

Blimey, page 5 and we've not even seen a turn. :D

Discussion FTW!
 
Settle in place.

I'm generally of the opinion that a food heavy capital is less useful than a production or commerce heavy, especially if you're planning on using Bureaucracy and/or CE. On this start, Sis's capital will have very strong production and commerce generating capabilities if he settles in place.

More specifically:

Settling in place means Sis will have access to at least 10 riverside tiles, at least 4 of which are resourceless flatlands good for cottaging. Moving the explorer East-Southeast as others are advocating will likely reveal one more riverside tile and 2-3 additional flatlands in the BFC, 1 to 2 of which will be riverside.

Moving 1 west means forsaking 3 riverside tiles and the possibility of the additional riversides/flatlands listed above in favor of 1 ocean tile and 4 coastal tiles with 2 clams.



For a CE economy, settling in place means settling a flagship capital endowed with considerable production and commerce.
 
The intent of the ALC games is to play to the strengths of the civ (Agg/Fin in this case). Agg civs are not wonder spammers.

If you play an Obsolete-style wonderspam strategy with settled GP (hopefully hammer-producing Priests and Engineers) in the capital, then there's definitely synergy with the aggressive trait -- especially later aggression, when the GP are coming less often and there are fewer prophet/engineer wonders available. You stop building wonders, and switch over to settled GP/bureaucracy-turbocharged military production in the capital.
 
I would move the settler 1W, but I'm pretty sure Sisiutil settles in place. Of course if there's another food recource in SE of the settler in its initial FC, then there's no question about it. Either way it's a really good capital. If settle in place, there's no need for Moai Statues here. But if 1W, then definitely those statues are important. The GLighthouse is a priority, and The Colossus would be cool too but not as high priority as GLighthouse is. If 1W, The Colossus would be higher priority because of the Bureacracy bonus.
 
Of course if there's another food recource in SE of the settler in its initial FC, then there's no question about it.

I was thinking that at first, but then again -- the main purpose of settling on the stone is a super-fast start. With the huge food potential, the capital will spit out workers and a settler for a second city very rapidly. IF there's a food resource by the river 2E or E-SE of the settler start, then the tile 1E of the E grassland hill makes a very good second city location (river, 1-2 elephants, and at least a food resource, probably more).

So, the presence of a food resource either 2E or E-SE actually works just as well with the stone strategy, since it would allow for fast settling and growth of a second city. It's not actually all that useful to the capital early game if you settle in place, since the 2 clams provide enough food to work the 5 key food-negative tiles in the BFC (2 Elephants, Stone, Plains Hill and Grassland Hill).
 
Settle in place: all that seafood is going to go to waste if you have mostly water tiles. As for builds, Workboat>Scout>Workboat, using the first workboat for food.
 
I was thinking that at first, but then again -- the main purpose of settling on the stone is a super-fast start. With the huge food potential, the capital will spit out workers and a settler for a second city very rapidly. IF there's a food resource by the river 2E or E-SE of the settler start, then the tile 1E of the E grassland hill makes a very good second city location (river, 1-2 elephants, and at least a food resource, probably more).

So, the presence of a food resource either 2E or E-SE actually works just as well with the stone strategy, since it would allow for fast settling and growth of a second city. It's not actually all that useful to the capital early game if you settle in place, since the 2 clams provide enough food to work the 5 key food-negative tiles in the BFC (2 Elephants, Stone, Plains Hill and Grassland Hill).

Hmm, thats very true. Didn't even think about it. So, lets say settle on the stone in any case :D .
 
Settle in place: all that seafood is going to go to waste if you have mostly water tiles. As for builds, Workboat>Scout>Workboat, using the first workboat for food.

What you mean, why the seafood goes waste with mostly water tiles? And why in the heck you would build scout so early in archipelago map?
 
re: maoi statues, i usually always build them in a 1-tile island city; however, in an archipelago map building them in the capital to have a high-powered production center early could be game-winning.
I did this for a while, but I realized that it isn't a good plan. What you wind up with is a very mediocre production city that can really only build ships. Now, I look to see if I can get eight or more coast squares in a good hybrid city. It makes more sense to me to turn a good coastal city into a great one th an to turn a useless city into an almost useless city.

My vote is for moving onto the stone. It won't speed up the first workboat very much (as you'd want to work a 3 :hammers:/:food: square, which can only be a grassland forest or the flood plains. However, you will get a net 2:food: while still producing a workboat as fast as possible otherwise. And once it becomes time to produce the worker, you'll crank him out faster too.

Quarries are not a great improvement. They're only as good as a mine, without the ability to pop a resource. By settling on the stone, you still get the 1:hammers: from the resource, so it's a strict comparison between the improvements.

With 10 coast and 1 ocean, this is an excellent city for the Maoi statues, especially since you will want to be working at least four of those tiles most of the time, and with financial, all ten of those coast tiles are worth a minimum of 2:food:/1:hammers:/3:commerce: -- add Colossus, and remember that four of those have an additional three food, and you're looking at some good tiles to work. You're still on a river, and out of the nine land tiles left, all but two are riverside as well, so levees are still a good boost.

With that stone, and a near guarantee that there is little early threat, I think that you'll wind up building quite a few wonders, including the pyramids. Pyramids lends itself to a SE, and while Financial isn't normally considered a great SE trait, the amount of water on this map means that the trait will let your coastal tiles give you the commerce you need to stay in the black.

Also, since you will likely have a number of wonders available, you're already going to have a good GP pool going on in the capital, and adding specialists will put that up to a ridiculous level. Later on, you might want to move the capital, and leave this as a GP farm with a solid base even without specialists.


At pop 6 (post-Maoi, while working on the 'mids), you're looking at 14 raw hammers (4 clams, elephant, mined hill, 3:hammers: city square), doubled for stone. Pyramids are 500 * 1.5 for Epic. That takes 27 turns, which is respectable. I wouldn't want to chop the forests, but it is an option. Plus, you'll still be earning 23 food per turn, which will let you grow to size 10, and whip off 5 pop to hurry the 'mids at the end.

And don't forget the 17:commerce: you get while doing this.

If you settle in place, the Maoi statues won't be worth it any more. At size 6, you'd be working 2 clams, which leaves food for stone (5:hammers:), plains hill (4:hammers:), and 2 elephants (6:hammers:). Add the city square, and you get a grand total of 16:hammers:, or 24 turns. And you only earn 15:commerce: instead of 17.

I'm just not seeing the benefit of staying in place. Early game > late game, and you can't get any earlier than settling on a stone/plains/hill. The only real benefit I see is that you reserve the extra clams for other cities, but you might not want cities there once you've scouted around.

For tech, I'd go with either Sailing-Mining-Masonry-Archery-BW or Mining-Masonry-Sailing-Archery-BW. It might also be worth it to run to Monotheism instead of BW. You'll be pulling in a LOT of commerce very early, regardless of where you settle, so you should have a good shot. And if you are relatively isolated, it would be nice to have a religion in your region.

The only thing you know about your start is that you aren't surrounded by opponents, so military techs are low priorities. Barbs probably won't even be a problem, since even if you're on a larger landmass, there will almost certainly be chokepoints. For war, I'd wait until the 'zerks show up, or, at the very least, until construction. Heck, a jumbo/cat offensive on its own is still pretty strong, so the most important part of BW is that it leads to MC. Come medieval era, you'll be able to stomp anything in your path.

I'm going to go ahead and play, so suggestion time is over. Best of luck, and thanks for playing for us!
 
I did the math on the stone vs in place earlier... bascially the first workboat is about equal(one turn faster with settling on stone which is of course weighted out by the fact that you moved the settler one turn) however it is way faster to size 2 and waaaaaay faster to the 2nd workboat the 1st worker and the 3rd and 4th workboats(which the settle in place city doesn't have...). Basically you get alot more food and production alot faster which eventually turn into commerce(heck you even get commerce from working the extra clams).
 
I'd settle on the stone, yes the production will be lower but short term the extra hammers are a big help and long term this is a fantastic super science city with just enough production to get things made. Remember you can simply move the capitol later to take advantage of bureaucracy in a production rich city (the new elephant city perhaps).
 
My apologies for possibly repeating points others may have made, but after going through 3 pages of posts and seeing as the total number of pages i just got to anxious about posting ASAP.:eek:
Just so that Sisiutil takes note of what happens when he deprives us ALC junkies of our dose for too long.:D


My first urge after seeing the start spot was ofcourse to settle 1W as i value speedy starts over most anything.;)

Then i considered the matter more deeply trying to account for what implications the map type has for the game.
Yes there likely is a shortage of good :hammers: land but also land in general. So we will have to codense cities more than usual epecially as large cities are less likely unless we get lucky with initially accessible :) / :health: resources.

On top of that we likely have to expect limited contact with other AIs and any war really early is much less likely and effective.

The AI puts its blue circle 2N which looks weird but may suggest a resource to the N. I wouldn't go chasing dreams given the obvious quality of the other options. I wouldn't think theres other resources in the settler's current BFC but after i got that start with 5 riverside,plainhill golds and even more FPs from a big-small map i think anything is possible.:crazyeye:

All in all i still suggest 1W is better. In place does net better hammers from CS but might just mean space for one less city on top of slower early REX.
1W still nets 10:hammers: which are decent enough for trying a couple of early wonders. Besides we always retain the option to move the capital, and place cities #2-3 where they could build the pyramids.

I'd wait for more info on the map before commiting to wonders(mainly concerned about contact and with whom), but i think pyramids and GL are good choices, the collosus to if we hook copper.

Note:I recommend against a cottage spam. Financial can be leveraged fine with coast tiles as most all the land will serve us better with :hammers:, especially with the mids at hand.
 
I haven't seen this pointed out yet on this thread, but on archipelago maps it's important to get as many good cities on you main lsland as possible. For this reason, I would suggest settling on the stone and leave so of the good western tiles for another city. It's likely the west coast could be just into the fog to the west.

My experience is that you will end up using all the land tile on your home island, so unlike continent maps, the cities end up getting pushed to the edges of the land.

Settle on the Stone.
 
What you mean, why the seafood goes waste with mostly water tiles? And why in the heck you would build scout so early in archipelago map?

Lots of seafood is only necessary if you have a lot of tiles lacking food. Too much food will make your city grow too quickly, which you can't leverage if you have a low happiness cap (early game).

Since Sisiutil is playing Snaky Continents, there should be a decent chunk of land to explore.
 
Another point to consider WRT moving west or settling in place is that if he moves Sis will no longer be able to build Three Gorges in his high productivity capital.

Of course, this is archipelago, so it's pretty likely that he won't bother with it anyway, since the continents will be so small...

A second point to consider is happiness caps; the 4 clams will support a LOT of citizens, but will the happy cap be high enough to actually allow that many citizens until later in the game? I think it would be better to save the clams for other cities, who could use them immediately and to greater effect

I still say settle in place :)
 
Lots of seafood is only necessary if you have a lot of tiles lacking food. Too much food will make your city grow too quickly, which you can't leverage if you have a low happiness cap (early game).

Since Sisiutil is playing Snaky Continents, there should be a decent chunk of land to explore.

Not enough for it to warrant ignoring early development in favor of building a second scout though...
 
Not enough for it to warrant ignoring early development in favor of building a second scout though...

Agreed. You've gotta remember that this is Archipelago... we could be isolated, we could be on a continent... anything could happen.
 
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