ALC Game #21 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Shaka

[Munch]

Playing Shaka on an all land map is as balanced as Ragnar on an Archipelago.

Surely not - the AIs seriously suffer on watery maps, and are a lot better at this kind of all-land thing. Maybe you'd have a point about Shaka being great, maybe too great, at this kind of map but with AggAI turned on I think early rushing will be a lot more difficult. Also, while you are embroiled with one war all the other AIs will be amassing troops and can attack any player at any moment. This gives the computer players a significant advantage which is precisely the opposite of the Ragnar game.

I vote Inland Sea.

At first I thought that Lakes would be OK, until someone mentioned the tundra strip. Yes, that's bad and will force you to go for conquest, unless you want to settle those frigid lands. (I almost did that in a Highlands Map game before I retired). Maybe you can build those cities then gift them to your vassal, because vassals do not stop a conquest victory IIRC.

Had a look and Inland Sea is quite an artificial looking map type; you get a bit of tundra at the top and bottom but then the big black border appears. I didn't play on for very long, does anyone know if you can actually zoom out to get the full planet-in-space view using this kind of map?

About the map, I looked at some Lakes maps, and my impression was that even with high sea level, it's A LOT of land, and the lakes aren't big or numerous enough to create anything resembling choke points. That should help AIs that are good at rexing, but also be a big help to Shaka who not only can rex very well thanks to the Ikhandas, but who can also just keep rolling over one opponent after the other. I think I'd really prefer two to four continents with at least one opponent on the same starting land mass so there can be an early rush but it won't become too straightforward.

Yes it's a lot of land, but high seas can sometimes make a difference. I agree that it's not quite as full of choke points as I would have liked, though.

THe thing about Shaka is that he is just great at total war; great UU to spam, great fast-building UB to save money, and pretty good traits. We all know what the strategy for this game is going to be regardless of the chosen map etc: Impi spam. All being well Sis should be able to crush one or two neighbours and then assess his situation; this is where the choice of map comes in: if you're playing a continent-like map, you may have already taken over your landmass and can sit pretty, building up ready for the inevitable invasion of the other landmasses - should be a cakewalk. If you're playing an all-land map however, there is no point where you can feel safe from AI invasion (and no border which is safe!), and the AI WILL be spamming units. I really believe that a continents map type would be a lot easier for Shaka than Lakes, Inland Sea or any other all-land map would be.

 

[oyzar]

On a pangea map surly a BC conquest is possible. Would be nice to see sitsuil do it even once. Go down the path of selfdestruction that early conquest really is.

 

[Gooblah]

Yeah. I just don't want a repeat of Peter and Isabella, with two "takes" each. I'd rather see him play this out and win, showing off Shaka's late-game advantages as well....

I've played a few turns into my Shaka game, with the same custom settings, but on a Lakes map with an extra player. My capitals BFC had:
2 Cows
1 Horse
2 Clams
1 Wheat
It was awesome! I chariot-rushed Elizabeth, then Impi-rushed Hammurabi. Even with Agg AI on, they were no match! And Bowmen get a bonus against Melee units. Granted, it was on Prince, and Hammurabi had just moved a Settler group out. Also, on the turn of my attack, he went into a slave revolt, dropping his defense by 40% and giving me a better chance of winning. I'll play it through and report back later..

 

[Tyrant Roger]

If your plan is a conquest victory - which I fully endorse for the sake of variety - that will mean a lot of warring. Any map which requires intercontinental invasions will call for lots of micromanagement and additional time to win. So I think a one land map is definitely the way to go. Now that could be pangea, lakes, or inland sea. Of those three I think lakes with high seas and an extra AI or two could be the most educational and different.

Summon the Impi and let the pillaging begin!

 

[Quotey]

How many people cannot run large maps and open the ALC saves? Perhaps it'd be nice to have a large map with 1-2 less opponents so they can expand more.

Isn't it the wants of the few outweight the needs of the many or something? Eh, I dunno. I'd like to see a large map.

 

[mystyfly]

large map with less AI? seems like you don't wanna see impi rush

I can't open large maps. My Lagtop "manages" standard maps thought...

 

[Mesousa]

Isn't it the wants of the few outweight the needs of the many or something? Eh, I dunno. I'd like to see a large map.

Needs over needs maybe, but wants? Also, I'm sure the many don't want to wait even longer for played rounds. Just look at the Ragnar game, how long the waiting times between turns were (a large map means it takes longer for Sisiutil to reach important points, like the defeat of an opponent, so turns take longer, and the wars should already take longer due to AggAI's unit spam), and how long it took to achieve the actual victory after the game had been practically decided. Wouldn't it be nice if each individual ALC didn't take half a year?

 

[madscientist]

As someone who has played ALOT of huge maps and currently plays Standard sized, I vote for the standard sized. They offer alot more versatility and enjoyment to the game. Huga maps with alot of AIs get boring and tedious especially if you go down the war route.

SO 1 vote for standard sized maps. Cramp in a few other AIs if you like.

I like the tech brokering off. I think Agressive AI makes it easier after the initial start, but starting stronge is Shaka's game. Agressive AI just plays into Shaka's hands.

I never played a Lakes board so I will offer no suggestions there.

I am in my chair waiting for the entertainment to begin!

 

[Winston Hughes]

I'm gonna have to agree with Scarredroman here: I fear the map/settings mentioned above are likely to make for an easy game, given your proven skill on Emperor.

Why? Well, let's look at those options...

Spoiler :

Single landmass map.

The fact that you avoid the need for intercontinental attacks later on isn't so significant - as you've shown in the past, you're well capable of warring across the oceans.

What's much more important is the fact that you can act to prevent anyone from running away in the tech race. If you can't bribe another civ to slow down your fast-teching rival, then you can send a pillaging mission to do the job yourself.

You'll also have borders with more civs, and thus a broader range of options when deciding who to kill (or, rather, what order to kill them in). This can be a major advantage when going for a warmongering victory.

Aggressive AI

Obviously, playing as Shaka, your strength lies in heavy warmongering through the early part of the game. To take full advantage you'll want to knock down (though not necessarily eliminate) as many civs as possible before they can get more advanced troops (most notably Longbows).

So the one thing you don't want is a fast global tech rate, as this will either force you to stop warmongering to catch up, or to attack with outdated troops. Given that you'll be building tons of troops and warring frequently anyway, imo neither higher AI unit numbers nor more aggressive AI behaviour are going to compensate for the slower tech pace you'll get with AggAI.

For the same reasons, a greater likelihood of inter-AI wars will also play into your hands.

Finally, in my experience AggAI does little to nerf Shaka's early rushes. You may need an extra unit or two to finish the job, but with fast granaries, fast barracks and fast Impis, that's not going to be a major handicap. It's later on, after the AI has had time to build up its armies, that you'll start to face more serious resistance. But, with this leader/map combo, by then many of your rivals should already be dead or crippled.

No Tech Brokering/No Goody Huts

These will also slow the global tech rate, and thus extend the period before you have to face more advanced troops.

I totally understand the clamour to see Shaka in his element - he's one of my favourite leaders. But if you do choose these Shaka-friendly settings, I'd advise you to bump the difficulty up to Immortal so as to ensure a decent challenge.

Sure, if you get a nasty start it could be a real struggle, but that'd be far better than another cakewalk imo.

 

[TriPp]

Reading winstons post id have to say immortal difficulty would be better than changing options. I dont think agg ai or no tech brokering slows the ai much. You would also have to focus more on units and no tech brokering just keeps sum flavour between civs i think.
Games are much to easy without agg ai, dont even need to build a stack to take them. I like seeing a dozen units defend a city rather than 3, could just be me though!

 

[madscientist]

I'll pipe in again. The agressive AI does slow them down providing they are at war. Agressive AI Gandhi and Musa will tech just fine if they can stay alive. The middle tier, good techers such as Fred, Qin, HC, Justinian, Hannibal etc are going to trash their economies warring.

Now if Sis wants to have a slugfest with bearskins and knives I see nothing wrong with that! Of course if he gets not early copper he may be screwed!

 

[iamnleth]

I would LOVE to see a large map, but I believe less civs would take away from Shaka's early advantage... if anything, I'd add two or three civs to the game.

 

[KMadCandy]

dancing impis yay!

no tech brokering and no goody huts might be a good combination for a reason i haven't seen mentioned yet: you sometimes get smart villagers teaching you techs. any techs you learn from huts count as "techs you didn't research" in NTB. so if you want to do the "trade shaka a tech cheap ASAP to make him like you", that can mess up your plans. oh but in this case you ARE shaka

 

[Kietharr]

Shaka is pretty much the most insane early leader, with expansive he gets quick workers and a few settlers and aggressive gets him strong offensive melee units. Ikhanda is the best UB in the game imo, it's like an extremely cheap mini courthouse that you can build from turn 1 and it stacks with normal courthouses. Impi are a strange but overall solid UU. The extra movement point lets them run around to slay enemy chariot and horse archer pillagers easily and lets them accompany your pillaging horsemen. He's a pretty straightforward leader, just kill enemies early and build Ikhandas everywhere, use your momentum from early landgrabs to skyrocket up in score and tech.

It's a good idea to keep an enemy or two alive if there's another continent though. You can beat and pillage money and techs out of them to keep yourself going until you can fully rex up, even with cheap mini courthouse city costs and troop upkeep can get very hard to keep up with financially. I advocate a violent and logically aggressive gameplan to keep true to your settings and Shaka's personality. Your empire will thrive off of the hard work of anyone weaker than you

 

[reknaw]

If you do choose to play a non-ocean map such as Lakes, I would suggest going for Toroidal World Wrap. Everyone should live on a doughnut shaped planet, in my opinion.

 

[kazapp]

1) I think everyone agrees about this, but as pointed earlier mobility becomes useless when upgrading to 1 move unit. So it can't be used like the bersekers ambhitious (how in the heck is that supposed to be spellt) promotions.

It is spelled "spelt".

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Oh and you spell the other word "amphibious".

 

[LcOiVvE]

Ive been following along this and the pregame thread, yet im unsure if this has been suggested. As long as youre trying to even the playing field a little bit--that is, make it somewhat of a challenge--why not, in addition to selecting specific map types,etc, also select your opponents? There are, methinks, 11 civs in BTS with the Aggressive trait (Shaka included). Since youre going for a Con/Dom win....*snicker con/dom...condom...guess Sis is lookin to get his freak on, eh? .... why not add 6 or 7 Aggressive traited leaders to the fray. Genghis, Monty, Stalin, and Tokugawa come to mind--and Toku is protective (?? i think) as well. What could be more challenging to a war monger like Shaka than facing twice-promoted units right out of the gate? Plus, the Agressive leaders will make life fun for Sis/Shaka with the diplomacy side of things. Combining this with your particular map size and type could make this a particularly fun game to watch. Just a thought. Gives the AI a fighting chance. Literally.

Great work with the series, btw. Ive enjoyed them aned learned much.


On second thought, maybe adding Protective leaders is the better, more challenging way to go?

 

[mystyfly]

Agg AI will be turned on in this game. In a game with those AIs on Agg AI, there will be no teching at all.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Agg AI will be turned on in this game. In a game with those AIs on Agg AI, there will be no teching at all.

ALC21 - Shaka's Stone-Age Slugfest