ALC Game #21 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Shaka

[Mesousa]

ALC21 - Shaka's Stone-Age Slugfest

At least that settles the map discussion - Ice Age it is.

 

[Sisiutil]

Ive been following along this and the pregame thread, yet im unsure if this has been suggested. As long as youre trying to even the playing field a little bit--that is, make it somewhat of a challenge--why not, in addition to selecting specific map types,etc, also select your opponents?

...

On second thought, maybe adding Protective leaders is the better, more challenging way to go?

I really don't like pre-selecting opponents. Resolving the mystery of who else is out there is a big part of the fun of the game to me. I never pre-select opponents in off-line games. I also find that a mix of opponent types, which is what you inevitably get from a random selection, provides a better challenge. Some of the AIs will be military threats while others will tech ahead of you and still others will threaten a diplomatic victory with either the AP or the UN.

 

[Mesousa]

For the Ragnar game, I was all for picking opponents, but here I'm against it, mostly because you can't influence where the AIs start. Sure, it might be interesting to have a close neighbour who is himself aggressive, or good at defending against rushes (like Babylon), but the ones who start far away might turn out to be much more of a thread if they're techer/builder types since they'll be stronger by the time you get to them.

 

[Roxlimn]

Even without nearby enemies, Shaka's Exp cheap granaries plus Agg combined with the Ikhanda can allow for an explosive mid REX. Not as powerful out the gate as Imperialistic, but with longer staying power - up to about 10-12 cities at the highest limit.

Impis are excellent early rushers with Cover promotions. Not as long lasting as a CR promotion, but gives better chances in the field where they'll likely meet resistance as pillagers. I don't like giving them Shock often, because ideally, you should be sitting on every Copper and Iron resource in range with an Impi.

AggAI would, I think, play to Shaka about as much as Archipelago plays to Ragnar - less teching on the other continent as such.

Hemishperes with 3 Continents would be a great challenge for Conquest! Not one, but 2 Continents to conquer. On the one hand, it could be less of a "cakewalk" once you have your own continent in hand, though I've never had a problem with that. Planning Continental invasions is a part of the game, so even with only 2 Continents, it would be more fun for me. On other hand, if you had the capability to conquer one continent anyway, just conquering another could prove to be nothing more than a chore.

 

[ConanKND]

Maybe Hub or Wheel? That would be cool. Many ways to attack and defend. Of course, we'll have to check AI competence on them....

 

[dragomaster]

Whilst Big & Small, Hemispheres or Continents would all be great, I don't think having an entirely land map (such as Pangaea or the often forgotten Lakes) really 'stacks the deck' in your favour. I understand your caution following the Ragnar romp, but the problem there was two-fold:

#AI sucks at naval maps
#Ragnar is probably the best at naval maps

The thing about a Lakes or Pangaea map is that (particularly with Aggressive AI) the computer players are all in their prime. The kind of map they play best on is the all-land type, where they can attack anyone who looks weak at any moment. This is particularly true for Lakes maps, because you can walk both ways around the world, whereas with Pangaea you can be almost certain the AI won't attack you across the water if it can get at you over the land instead; this makes Pangaea easier than Lakes because you can feel fairly safe huddled into a corner with your back to the sea.

I'm gonna throw my weight behind a Lakes map. You've already stated that you are playing this game on Emperor, which I believe is your current level? There's been talk of moving up a level soon, and I think the toughest map setup you could possibly try before increasing the difficulty would be a Lakes map with AggAI. Besides, if you haven't tried it before then it's worth a go just to see how well the AI does.

PS. I've always lost on Lakes+High sea level (ie High lakes level) on Monarch and I'd love to see how you go about it!

This sounds like an exelent ID, those Lkes maps are werd and hard. With agressive ai you can face a real chalange

Congrats on getting to Shaka; this should be exciting. As far as a strategy goes, an Impi rush seems a foregone conclusion (I hope). Just remember you'll need a few more of them than with axes, as they're strength 4 not 5. Also you might want an axe or two for backup if it takes a while to rush, just to take care of enemy melee units. On the other hand the impis are perfectly suited to pillaging to destroy enemy metal resources. DENY DENY DENY. Also rush rush rush.

this i also a point of the impis. Pillige evry metals you see or attack if they only have archers.

Really? Ive noticed that in only 2 or 3 games out of the last 15. Theres ussually 3 or 4 dominant religions in my games and i play with a max of 8 AI normally. I guess it depends on the AIs wether they focus on religion or not + fav religions still play a bigger role since they are more easily founded, so i see alot of AI going for thier own religion rather than just adopting the 1st one found like normal games.

This is not good at all it shold be the religon first founded. It's not fare when the majority of the civs have chritianity as favoured religon. Lets say you found taoism after reserching meditation, spam it to evry city on the continent and all civs adopt it. then isabella found christianity after reserched philpsephy and spam it to one city in charlmanages empier, he adopt it becous its his favoured religon. the favourd religon choose shold only be avaible for the AI when they reserch the tech. in outher way this favoured religon are broken and is destroying the game.

 

[ese-aSH]

This sounds like an exelent ID, those Lkes maps are werd and hard. With agressive ai you can face a real chalange

then play on fantasy realm, there you will find it hard : no correct cities, no artificial limits like oceans.

well the game should still be fun, and lakes is not the funniest map.
I'd rather go up one level instead of playing boring settings just to 'make the game harder'

 

[Quotey]

then isabella found christianity after reserched philpsephy and spam it to one city in charlmanages empier, he adopt it becous its his favoured religon. the favourd religon choose shold only be avaible for the AI when they reserch the tech. in outher way this favoured religon are broken and is destroying the game.

I've read somewhere that the favoured religion only affects Choose Religion choice and has a 1.25x preference to leaders- If Charlie has 10 cities, 5 taoist and 5 Christian, then yes he will revolt to Christianity. By Taoism, it is likely every city has a religion, and not even Issy is that devoted!

Can some code watcher clarify? (also spellcheck)

 

[dragomaster]

I've read somewhere that the favoured religion only affects Choose Religion choice and has a 1.25x preference to leaders- If Charlie has 10 cities, 5 taoist and 5 Christian, then yes he will revolt to Christianity. By Taoism, it is likely every city has a religion, and not even Issy is that devoted!

Can some code watcher clarify? (also spellcheck)

I belive this is a problem for instens that meen if 9 of 11 citys have christianity and 11 of 11 have tao he will revolt to christianity. this makes choosing christianity as religon more attractive when more civs will adopt to it. unbalanced from my point of view.

 

[Winston Hughes]

Lets say you found taoism after reserching meditation, spam it to evry city on the continent and all civs adopt it. then isabella found christianity after reserched philpsephy and spam it to one city in charlmanages empier, he adopt it becous its his favoured religon.

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. If I understand it right, favoured religion only operates when "Choose Religions" is enabled, and it only refers to the decision on which religion to found when a civ is first to a religion-spawning tech (eg. Polytheism, Theology). So it's a purely cosmetic thing and has no effect on gameplay whatsoever.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Religious preference apparently has the following 3 effects

1. religion weighted 1.25 more when deciding official religion

2. If Choose Religions is on, that is the Religion the AI chooses

3. If Choose Religions is Off, there is a 2 fold weight for the 'discover religion' factor of a tech that discovers that religion (so Euro civs would favor researching Theology over Philosophy slightly if Both Christianity and Taoism hadn't been discovered)

 

[dragomaster]

I'm pretty sure that's not how it works. If I understand it right, favoured religion only operates when "Choose Religions" is enabled, and it only refers to the decision on which religion to found when a civ is first to a religion-spawning tech (eg. Polytheism, Theology). So it's a purely cosmetic thing and has no effect on gameplay whatsoever.

great and thanx. chosing religon sonds good again.

 

[Winston Hughes]

great and thanx. chosing religon sonds good again.

Well, assuming Krikkitone is right (and he usually is), then my understanding was completely wrong. Which is a pity, because what he said sounds like a really dumb feature (apart from the Choose Religion bit).

 

[Yeosol]

Impi's are probably the funnest unit to play with.

A strategy I like to use with Shaka is to Orical-->Theocracy. This gives you 3 important things. First use the religion for culture. Combine it with the civic to allow access to CRII Impi's out of the gate. And thirdly generate a GProphet to found the religious building to help counter expansion economic drain.

The Orical will slow down your Impi rush but will make them that much more effective. CR2 gives 25% bonus. This gives them the strength of an axe + the other modifiers. If you can pin down a civ's metal the Impi's will dominate them. Once they have metal the Impi's can still shine as raiders. If they stick to the forests they won't fear axes.

I like to send them all through raiding. then when you see a weak city they can all unite on it with amazing speed.

As mentioned before Whipping, chopping and speed are Key to playing Shaka.

 

[mystyfly]

Impi's are probably the funnest unit to play with.

A strategy I like to use with Shaka is to Orical-->Theocracy. This gives you 3 important things. First use the religion for culture. Combine it with the civic to allow access to CRII Impi's out of the gate. And thirdly generate a GProphet to found the religious building to help counter expansion economic drain.

The Orical will slow down your Impi rush but will make them that much more effective. CR2 gives 25% bonus. This gives them the strength of an axe + the other modifiers. If you can pin down a civ's metal the Impi's will dominate them. Once they have metal the Impi's can still shine as raiders. If they stick to the forests they won't fear axes.

I like to send them all through raiding. then when you see a weak city they can all unite on it with amazing speed.

As mentioned before Whipping, chopping and speed are Key to playing Shaka.

I 100% agree that speed is the key for an Impirush. But waiting to build Impis until you got Theo from The Oracle, only for 2 more XP doesn't seem to pay off. The trick is to face as few Swords/Axes as possible. This delay will make sure the 5 XP Impis will be slaughtered.

 

[d.a.oconnell]

I just played as Shaka on a Lakes map (Monarch). I conducted an Impi rush and found that they are great for pillaging strategic resources, but not so good at city rush. Even in cities with archers not on hills, they still had some difficulty beating the city garrisoned archers. (I promoted some with Cover, others with City Raider). I found that using an initial impi rush is good, while building a road towards the enemy and sending in backup axemen worked very well. Essentially an impi rush to knock out resources (and defend against chariots), and axemen to city raid.

The unique barracks is a great way to keep the economy stable, and quick expansive workers are nice (granted I stole about 75% of my workers from the enemy). The good news is the Impi/Axe Rush managed to wipe out 3 civilizations, almost 4 but my economy was struggling so I had to stop. Another great use for the Impi's is to make the medics. Just my 2 cents.

ps: Rushing Hammurabi's bowmen was a pain... they have a melee bonus, so be sure to note him, as well as someone like Sitting Bull, who has an early unique unit that doesn't require copper and is effective against melee as well.

 

[Sisiutil]

I just played as Shaka on a Lakes map (Monarch). I conducted an Impi rush and found that they are great for pillaging strategic resources, but not so good at city rush. Even in cities with archers not on hills, they still had some difficulty beating the city garrisoned archers. (I promoted some with Cover, others with City Raider). I found that using an initial impi rush is good, while building a road towards the enemy and sending in backup axemen worked very well. Essentially an impi rush to knock out resources (and defend against chariots), and axemen to city raid.

The unique barracks is a great way to keep the economy stable, and quick expansive workers are nice (granted I stole about 75% of my workers from the enemy). The good news is the Impi/Axe Rush managed to wipe out 3 civilizations, almost 4 but my economy was struggling so I had to stop. Another great use for the Impi's is to make the medics. Just my 2 cents.

ps: Rushing Hammurabi's bowmen was a pain... they have a melee bonus, so be sure to note him, as well as someone like Sitting Bull, who has an early unique unit that doesn't require copper and is effective against melee as well.

Hammy's Bowmen are indeed a problem, as much if not more so than a Protective leader. You can't realistically take on Hammy until you have Catapults.

 

[kcmarkwell]

Hammy's Bowmen are indeed a problem, as much if not more so than a Protective leader. You can't realistically take on Hammy until you have Catapults.

I disagree. With horses you can take out hammy pretty dang easy no matter what civ you are. Enough chariots will take him out.

 

[Sisiutil]

I disagree. With horses you can take out hammy pretty dang easy no matter what civ you are. Enough chariots will take him out.

Ah, of course. Unfortunately, I never get Hammy next door when I play as Egypt or Persia; no, it's always when I'm Rome and have a pile of Praets who will all die taking on Babylonian Bowmen who are fortified in a city on a hill.

 

[Scarredroman]

Ah, of course. Unfortunately, I never get Hammy next door when I play as Egypt or Persia; no, it's always when I'm Rome and have a pile of Praets who will all die taking on Babylonian Bowmen who are fortified in a city on a hill.

I sense a Construction slingshot in this game. After the see how early I can get Astronomy in Ragnar's game, it'll be see how quickly I can have catapults in Shakas.