ALC Game 22: Arabs/Saladin

[Bandobras Took]

I'm not sure I understand the obsession with an Early Religion . . . if you're going to be running priests anyway, why not just use the Great Prophets to nab the later ones?

 

[oyzar]

Because for some reason there are a lot of people on these boards that don't like worker techs despite the fact that saladin start with no help in that department...

 

[Nares]

Sorry, what do you mean by that?

I was looking for improvements to the tech path I suggested.

I know we want religion, but I don't think it's worth the early research to capture an early religion. We can do just fine picking ones up with CoL, Theology, Philosophy and Divine Right. Keep in mind, we want to rush researching Philosophy and Divine Right for their respective wonders, as well as for the religions.

I think we should research Bronze Working relatively early. It's more than just for revealing Bronze. As was pointed out, we don't really need Bronze; we'll coast on Archers/LBs and Walls until (presumably) Camel Archers (or Swords/Cats?).

As a reminder for everyone, the Protective trait doesn't actually improve our power rating in any way, except through cheaper Walls. Those promotions, while nice in actual combat, won't prevent an AI from DOWing on us, because they're not taken into account by the Power chart.

Bronze also brings Slavery (yay 1st civic) and chopping. Arguably, we could get away without chopping on this start. There's lots of nice early production tiles and enough food to sustain them at our present low-pop cap.

I don't think super early Pottery is necessarily the way to go. I agree with the assessment that we'll want to Cottage those Flood Plains, but I don't think we'll be putting an incredibly number of turns into working them until after we've increased the Happiness cap some and don't sacrifice Hammers for Commerce.

I also don't think we're desperate for that early Commerce. Nearly every tile we'll be working for the next 100+ turns is likely to provide at least one Commerce.

 

[madscientist]

To followup my earlier post. You'll to tech fishing or agriculture to tech pottery like I suggested.

SO suggested techpath: Polytheism/Agriculture/AH/Pottery, the go mining/BW if you have access to horses or hunting/archery if you don't.

 

[Polobo]

Agri-Hunt-Animal to start, then see what the land gives you.

Mining-Masonry-Monotheism to up production, throwing in archery and (meditation or polytheism)

Priesthood-Pottery, make writing cheaper and open up temples (hopefully you'll have a religion by now), and granaries in preparation for slavery.

Bronze Working - Writing, use the unslaved population to generate commerce while tech bronze and writing then start slaving them off to product madrassas.

Only pottery and priest will be missing any pre-reqs so with the limited commerce from the floodplains and any secondary cities you should minimize research cost while spacing buildings out far enough and keeping your workers busy.

You probably will get a fairly large continent so building a couple of warriors for scout and escort duty will probably work well. Since you don't start with hunting I wouldn't go with scouts at all.

Try and time the first worker for animal husbandry, setup the pasture and a farm then mining should be available for the plains hills.

 

[slaze]

I know we want religion, but I don't think it's worth the early research to capture an early religion. We can do just fine picking ones up with CoL, Theology, Philosophy and Divine Right. Keep in mind, we want to rush researching Philosophy and Divine Right for their respective wonders, as well as for the religions.

After seeing this start, I think the most important tech we want is Monarchy. And that isn't really on the way to any of those techs; it has religion in front of it and not behind. The AI could beat us to all those techs if we get off track, unless we devote ourselfs to the Theology lightbulb.

The capitol doesn't look too complicated as far as tech needs. Outside of AH, Agriculture and Mining are all that's needed to pump out workers/settlers. Farm three of the floodplains to start, using the mines and cow as the 6 pop worker/settler pump, eventually getting cottages on surrounding grassland/plains tiles to halt growth when needed.

So unless more resources are revealed, go for Polytheism. Warrior-worker-warrior, teching poly-ag-mining... although three farms might give you the timing to put hunting-archery in before mining.

 

[civ4legs]

I agree with others who are questioning the pursuit of an early religion. Doesn't it make sense to leverage the madrassa to pop a quick Great Prophet who can then bulb to a religion?

 

[Bandobras Took]

As a reminder for everyone, the Protective trait doesn't actually improve our power rating in any way, except through cheaper Walls. Those promotions, while nice in actual combat, won't prevent an AI from DOWing on us, because they're not taken into account by the Power chart.

Yes. The point of Protective is not having to care so much whether the AI declares war on you, because once it take a look at your actual defenses, it won't attack anywhere unless it was going to win no matter what you did.

I don't think super early Pottery is necessarily the way to go. I agree with the assessment that we'll want to Cottage those Flood Plains, but I don't think we'll be putting an incredibly number of turns into working them until after we've increased the Happiness cap some and don't sacrifice Hammers for Commerce.

With no Hammer bonuses from Expansive/Imp, my thought was that the Flood Plains would be worked for Worker/Settler production anyway. The thing here is having 3-commerce tiles to work with sooner than you would otherwise.

I also don't think we're desperate for that early Commerce. Nearly every tile we'll be working for the next 100+ turns is likely to provide at least one Commerce.

But the difference between 1 and 3 is signifcant enough that I'd still go for it.

 

[Sisiutil]

Why do I think Sisiutil picked this start because there is little to debate over?

I've had several ALC starts I thought were no-brainers that turned into 10 page debates, so I'm no judge!

Okay, maybe my N00bness is showing, but didn't you discard at least one of the three starts that r_rolo rolled up, because (among other things) it had gems in the BFC, thereby making it too easy for your last Emperor game?

A good and fair question, so I'll do my best to answer it. To me there's a definite difference between having gold/gems/silver in the capital's default fat cross versus having to move the capital to obtain them. The latter involves losing turns, potentially, to obtain that resource, as well as running the significant risks of both giving up hidden resources and including unseen, possibly less desirable terrain in the capital's tiles. Go back and have a look at the 2nd Peter of Russia game; there was considerable debate there about whether it was worth moving the capital to claim a gold mine. It turned out to be worth it, but it could easily have backfired.

As for religions I want to remember the settings: Hemispheres , 2 continents..... Early religion will most surely mean a lovefest in the faraway lands... just because of that I would only try to get Mono religion or even Theo one.....

About techs: this starts requires 3 techs : Agri ,AH and Mining .... I would get AH first.

I'd need either Agriculture or Hunting before I can go after Animal Husbandry.

So this time, the big debate isn't over moving the Settler, it's over initial techs! The posts seem evenly divided between those advocating a pursuit of an early religion and those advocating a focus on worker techs of various permutations and combinations.

Once I settle in place I may make my decision based upon what else, if anything, of significance appears in the capital's fat cross. Or I may just flip a coin.

 

[r_rolo1]

Ok ( sorry forgot the tech that Saladin starts ) then agri -> AH while building the first worker and aim for religion at Theo.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

I'd skip an early religion, you only get +1 commerce from a river tile until you grow to pop 2 and on Emperor it's going to be tough. I'd go towards pottery->writing for the UB instead.

 

[OTAKUjbski]

Because it can?

Because you said so, huh? j/k j/k (I guess not being a writer or photographer didn't spark the correct brain cells to answer that on my own. )

Nabbing a super early religion seems unlikely given that there are no good commerce tiles visible in the BFC.

I'd love to see that done correctly

In my Monarch games, I find it difficult to found Medi-theism religions without a 2 tile.

IDK ... a very small part of me hopes we strive for but fail to get an early religion just so I can see how incorrectly is done correctly!

SO suggested techpath: Polytheism/Agriculture/AH/Pottery

If an early religion is sought, I ditto this techpath.


I'm a sucker for Worker 1st and Worker techs, so despite my initial knee-jerk reaction to race to BFC improvement, I think I vote to try founding a religion.

Whether we successfully found the religion or not, seeing that would be immensely more enlightening than doing what I'm already used to doing.


-- my last 2 for Round 0.

 

[Daedal]

I think everyone starts getting a worker first reflex sooner or later, but check out that start. At size 1 you can have 3 food surplus working a FP. At size 2 you'll have 4 food surplus working two FPs. So just by delaying that first worker build for a few turns, it'll build that much faster. Not to mention the extra commerce generated during that time.

At the same time, that food surplus is the very reason we want worker techs sooner rather than later. Happy cap at emperor is 4, right? Would you rather work 4 unimproved tiles while teching an early religion or 4 cottaged tiles while working a slightly later religion?

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Happy cap is 5 at emperor in BtS, they changed it from warlords.

EDIT: I think that might just be with a palace though...

 

[vicawoo]

If you get it early it spreads it's more likely to spread uniformly on its own.

 

[r_rolo1]

^^2 continents ... thatwill bring the usual " kill friendly religion friend and have to deal with 3/4 civs religious lovefest in the other lands... and you are their worst enemy".... Beaten to the bone. And besides that ,if you will build the AP ,I really doubt that you'll want to give a lot of free to your neighbours

 

[Gooblah]

I assume you'll be using this ALC to showcase the Priest Economy, since Saladin can be good for that. For a Priest Economy, you need the following:
Priesthood (Temples)
Meditation (fast route to Priesthood, Monasteries)
Philosophy (Angkor Wat)
Early Religion (Monotheism, for reasons below)
Now, this also lends itself to a Liberalism beeline, since two of the techs are on the way.

I suggested Monotheism for the religion because without a high commerce tile in the area, Meditation and Polytheism will be gobbled up quick by the AIs. Based on this, here's a small tech path:

Hunting-Pottery-Polytheism-Mining-Masonry-Monotheism.

It's not fast, nor guaranteed to nab you the Religion. However, if you fail, it puts you in a good spot to research Animal Husbandry/Agriculture/Priesthood/Writing. Note that I have no experience at Emperor, and only limited experience with the Priest Economy.

 

[Artichoker]

Saladin is Spiritual and Protective.

This means a few things:

1) Civics swap between Vassalage/Bureaucracy, and Organized Religion/Theocracy when focusing on military units/economy...it should be used to the max. Basically, the civics swap can go in waves, with the first wave starting with Vassalage, right after getting Feudalism.

2) Because of the dual purpose of Feudalism (new civic + new unit), and its synergy with both Spiritual and Protective, it should become high priority. It plays right into both of Saladin's traits.

3) Founding a religion is not so important as controlling a religion. It's OK if someone else founds a religion that you adopt, but make sure that leader doesn't gain the upper hand.

4) The Madrassa lets you run priests, which make it more likely to get a Great Prophet. The Great Prophet, when settled, has a decent output (+2 hammers/+5 gold). This kind of bonus is useful for a gold-based economy.

 

[Bandobras Took]

The Priest Economy sounds better for Ramses than Saladin. I personally dislike focusing on Wonders when I'm not Industrious.

 

[Stuck in Pi]

yey! It starts!