ALC Game #22 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Saladin

[oyzar]

You have neither industrious nor philo so spamming wonders doesn't seem like too good of an idea. You have spiritual for cheap temples and you have more promotions for gunpowder units so getting the 3 wonders that makes temples better(or maybe sistine too if you want) means you can spam alot of cities since all the cities will pay for themselves independent of what titles they have, with mercantilism and statue of liberty this becomes even more true of course.

Personally i think feudalism slingshot of oracle then just rocking the world with protective longbows is the coolest way to use saladin but that is somewhat mergable with the above city/temple spam. The feudalism slingshot only really works well with tech trading off as the AI will always get feudalism before you would want to get it(not using the oracle at least) and using it for trading is rather hard as the AI will quite often research feudalism themselves before the things you want to trade it for... With tech trading off going the lower part of the tech three allow you to have very nice longbowmen very early and also get your UU in reasonable time. I had a very nice game without tech trading where i did this. Take out my first couple of neighbors with cats and longbows then vassalize the rest with camel archers(kinda like what you did in your zulu game with the vassal spree).

I don't think Saladin is a bad leader... Spiritual is as you say one of the best traits around and even if protective isn't great it is better than nothing and both his uu and UB is usable...

 

[Ometjabbe]

Long time lurker and first time poster here that's checking in for this following ALC!

If I had any advice to give you, I most certainly would have. But since I'm only a noble player I can't think of anything I haven't learned at these kind of threads.

Very curious how this one will turn out and hope you'll begin soon!

Have fun at it!

 

[patagonia]

run a SE with saladin at the very start.


top wonders :

--> to get HUGE priests (+3 beaker, +2 hammer, +1 gold, +2 culture, best specialist ever) and benefit from your madrassa.
pyramids
angkor wat
sistine chapel
(having those 3 with saladin allow you to run a very strong SE)

--> as a spiritual leader that build temple fast
spiral minaret
university of sankore
(and once again, sistine )

This is the extreme end of the approach I'd be inclined to take. You've done SE and CE in previous ALCs; the last game on emperor would be a good time to run a PE (priest economy). Ramases is the best leader for that (since he can comfortably afford a run on the pyramids), but Saladin could do a reasonable job.

Feudalism slingshot on Emperor is very risky without a high commerce (eg goldmine) starting position, because you need to pull in a lot of beakers before the Oracle's built to get both monarchy and writing done. Theology slingshot, on the other hand, is very doable. That calls for early writing (which you'll want anyway), masonry and monotheism, but there should be plenty of time to get those done before the AI builds the wonder (if you research monotheism last, you shouldn't need to worry about gaining an additional religion either - unless you want to of course).

Pop theology early and you'll bag a religion, a useful war civic to go with the useful builder one you got from monotheism and be a lock-in for the AP to boost your cheap temples. You won't have to waste a GP on it either, which means an earlier shrine. Theology opens up paper, leaving you just one tech away from UoS, and with the GPP you can get early via the Madrassa, you'd have to be pretty unlucky with the RNG not to get a scientist in time to bulb philosophy fairly promptly for Angkor Wat.

That slimmed down approach requires a modest wonderspam (Oracle, AP, UoS and AW), and if you pop another prophet to grab early DR you'll possibly have a 3rd religion and access to the SM before everyone else. Your capital only really needs the production to get the Oracle built on time. Everything else can go in city 2/3/4 (as will religions/shrines) so one of them should ideally be a production powerhouse.

By this point you'll likely have 3 self-founded religions and 2-3 very good legendary city candidates. You'll also have a lot of spare beakers to play with since philosophy, DR and paper can be bulbed, leaving you only CoL and monarchy to self-research (assuming you don't use theology to trade for them) before you can pursue either Music (for Sistine) or the feudalism/machinery/guilds path for a spot of warring. Cultural may be the logical conclusion here, but warring's something you'll easily be able to afford with every city getting you 4 4 and 4 for free. You'll have those benefits in full until SciMeth and in part until you know computers and mass media, providing support for a sustained domination attempt if need be.

 

[iamnleth]

This is going to be great. I can hardly wait. A weak leader (Saladin) is being played, and the ALCs are moving to Immortal! I'll be following them now more than ever!

 

[slaze]

I don't think it's quite time to rule out an espionage economy although stone makes that more appealing. However, his side of espionage seems to be closer to the gold side of economy, with his preference to shrines ran with m/g/b. And his espionage econ isn't max espionage, as he pops a lot of great people other than spies.

Anyway, just keep an eye out for an economy that goes from hammers to beakers to espionage at engineering, and then any combination of sci/esp. And all the while supported by strong gold multipliers. Forges/OR would be a big help, but mostly for the grocers and such; Castles would be built in an instant with stone.

 

[LightSpectra]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Camel Archers require no resources, unlike knights which need both iron and horses. That's a huge advantage if you're in a resource-isolated area.

 

[Mesousa]

This is going to be great. I can hardly wait. A weak leader (Saladin) is being played, and the ALCs are moving to Immortal! I'll be following them now more than ever!

It'll still be Emperor for this game. As I understand it, Sisiutil will only move up to Immortal if he can win pretty comfortably on Emperor using even a weak leader like Saladin.

 

[Sleepless]

I would like to see a priest economy. Lots of settled priests and beeline all the religious wonders. Should be able to get theo from Oracle, build SH to get the Gps going etc. Obviously a lot depends on the starting position should be a little bit of chat about that (how many pages?).

Looking forward to the game.

 

[Stuck in Pi]

Good Luck! I've never played as Saladin before.

 

[Gooblah]

Hmm.

I think Saladin is suited for Medieval warfare, in my opinion. Camel Archers, Musketmen, Trebuchets, etc all occur around the same time, and Muskets can be used to good effect if accompanied by Siege and Mounted Units. Plus, Arabian Muskets get Drill I out of the box, opening up Cover and Drill II.

 

[Scaphism]

Saladin and Justinian are ver similar leaders in my eyes.

Both start with Wheel and Mysticism. Both are Spiritual, with a somewhat suspect second trait (Protective/Imperialistic). Both have a UU that replaces the Knight. They both favor War and Specialist economies - Saladin with the awesome Madrassa, Justinian with all the extra happy he gets from the Hippodrome.

The only major distinction (and it is a big one) in my eyes is their reliance on resources.

Saladin has next to no reliance on resources. He's not fast tracked onto any particular food tech, and he can do fairly well for himself with archers and longbows until he gets Camel Archers and can really do some damage. Until then, you probably want to focus on whatever infrastructure you can to prepare yourself for a late medieval war.
Regardless of what happens, Saladin is fairly safe no matter what kind of start you have. You are mainly looking for food so you can utilize the madrassa (and cheap temples). With Saladin you can count on having access to good defenses and your UU, and enough specialists to pull you through the early game if you have marginal land.

Justinian is very dependant on resources, but has a high upside when he strikes it rich. He needs horses and iron, and can't rely on archery alone for defense. But when he does get Cataphracts....yeouch.

On the other hand, I've had a lot of trouble geting an optimal guilds beeline with either of them.

As for religion, I wouldn't count on being the first Meditation or Polytheism unless you have an oasis or otherwise end up with a nice commerce tile in your fat cross. You can (and probably should) aim for Monotheism because you will want to open a chance for your Prophets to bulb Theology and any other religious techs.

I kind of hope you end up with Isabella on the other continent or far side of your continent. Or maybe Justinian so we can see how the two compare.

In any case, I'm looking forward to seeing this game play out.

 

[Living Parasite]

First time to post in a ALC thread.

I'm not so sure that wonderspamming is the best route to take to victory. The benefits of wonders (GPP) are just not worth the hammers required. While I do think that some wonders NEED to be built in this game, going wondercrazy will only deviate us from our victory condition.

I don't think we should enter into an early war in this game unless the need (landblocked etc.) should arise. Our traits and techs don't really accommodate early wars. BW is two-techs away and AH will likely be avoided until later. The earliest war we should start is after we snatch either Theo or Feudalism from the Oracle.

A Feudalism slingshot is risky, especially at Emperor. I pulled one off in my current game and used twice-promoted LBs to conquer Ramses in the early ADs. I think that early writing will be a key in this game if we want to attempt a Feudalism slingshot.

A Theology slingshot is a lot less risky and reliable. It will grant us early access to the AP and help us firepower our cheap temples with +2 hammers. Theology will allow us to use a GP to cruise us into Divine Right early and found 2-3 religions in our empire.

The synergy between the Madrassa, cheap temples, and Angkor Wat is amazing. If we have stone or just a high-production city, we could snatch the mids. This would allow us to produce 6 hammers, 9 beakers (with mids), and 3 commerce with just six food. Talk about food conversion efficiency.

 

[Peachrocks]

There is something interesting.

Saladin gets protective Longbows. He also gets Camel archers. Guilds requires Feudalism and Feudalism unlocks Vassalage which is a great perwar civic you can switch to just before you spam units then switch out of whenever.

Feudalism seems to be a rather important tech to Saladin I think...

 

[Leveler]

Unique Unit: Camel Archer (Replaces Knight; Strength: 10, Movement: 2, Cost: 90; Unique Characteristics: +25% chance of withdrawing from combat)

Actually they have only 15 % change to retreat. It was lowered in BTS to compensate flank attacks.

Higher change to flank attacks has nice synergy with protective trait: Destroy siege units with flanking attacks and then hide behind cheap walls and castles with City Garrison longbows. If we fall into defensive situation.

 

[cas]

Looking forward to this ALC. Just started playing Civ again after a year hiatus.

For me, the early tech path will be decided by the starting position resources. Either go for writing/madrassa *or* an early religion route. As pigswill pointed out, grabbing an early religion can lead to a monobloc faith among the AI's and cause diplo issues for peacemongers. Certain AI's in BtS also seem to spam-spread their religion with zeal.

I like the ideas of Theology sling, settling (some) priest GP's, and using the AP to cause some mischief among the AI's.

Being a minimalist, I might try a 3-city culture win. Not sure if my skills are sharp enough to pull that off Emporer level, but it will be a fun challenge.

cas

 

[Mu'min]

Yaaaaay Saladin!

He's my favourite leader and one i play alot.

Go for a early religion then beeline for archers. With 2-3 protective archers behind cheap walls no one, even ragnar, will bother you until mid game. but be prepared to defend your self by mid game, thats when everyone starts declaring on you, use build queues and spiritual trait to spam units early mid game before then.

As for which win to go for i always found cultural or space to be easy with Saladin.

 

[iamnleth]

It'll still be Emperor for this game. As I understand it, Sisiutil will only move up to Immortal if he can win pretty comfortably on Emperor using even a weak leader like Saladin.

I know. I suppose I jumped to the conclusion that this would be a win.

 

[Cabledawg]

As a change of pace, you could allways start with the Advanced Start option. You start with 990 base points. Imagine the debates that will follow on what to spend it on.

 

[Bandobras Took]

I'm not a lightbulb expert (nor, indeed, an expert of much anything else to do with Civ), so -- how feasible is it to use a Great Prophet Generated by the Madrassa to get early Code of Laws for earlier courthouses (to be combined with the cheap castles for some good espionage)?

 

[Sisiutil]

Actually they have only 15 % change to retreat. It was lowered in BTS to compensate flank attacks.

Thanks for the correction; I'll update the opening post with that, and with VoU's reminder that CAs require no resources.

As a change of pace, you could allways start with the Advanced Start option. You start with 990 base points. Imagine the debates that will follow on what to spend it on.

Dear God. And you think the debate over moving the Warrior and Settler are bad...

So apparently my new computer left Toronto today. Now the start of the game all depends on how fast Puralator gets it to Vancouver. I'm really hoping they move fast and get it here before the long weekend, but that may be a pipe dream...