ese-aSH
Prince
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2006
- Messages
- 354
I play Chieftan most of the time
no the funny thing was that he wrote it in small characters
ALC Game #22 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Saladin
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
no the funny thing was that he wrote it in small characters
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Quit pickin' on the new kid!look he's playing chieftain
Well, the new computer won't be showing up until early next week
, so we'll just have to keep this pre-game discussion going until then.Well what are your thoughts?
Does a religion race seem appealing? I don't know that it's worth the early turns.
Are you sold on building The Pyramids? They'll make a major difference to this game, though arguably you're playing a "weak" leader.
Which Oracle slingshot (if any) are you looking at? Has there been any discussion of a Guild-centric slingshot?
This game could play out any of a number of ways. Cultural sounds cool, but I don't think it's the victory of choice. With Spiritual, you can swap between military and economic civics on the fly.
I think a strong military game might be in order. Hopefully, you can offset the higher costs of military civics with gold supplemented by your Priests.
If you're not going Cultural, how many religions would you want to found? Is founding one even a priority? Running a Priest economy without using Great Prophets for tech bulbs or religious shrines could be interesting.
What makes it especially interesting, I think, is that you already have one benefit of Golden Ages from being a Spiritual leader, and Great People are very rarely settled.
Like certain Chinese leaders, I think perhaps Saladin would be a leader used to highlight the often overlooked bottom half of the tech tree.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
Why don't you get someone to generate the start for you, then we could get all the where to move settler discussion going early on?
slaze
Deity
The religion race sounds appealing, but it can be very map dependent. If you roll up on a start with no commerce, what can you do. But if you get an oasis...
Bandobras Took
Emperor
As I understand it, the chief concern of a Cultural Victory is keeping other nations off your back while shooting for culture. Such a thing might very well highlight the strength of protective (keeping people off your back while doing something else) and also underscores cheap temples. Besides, how many ALC Cultural victories have there been?
Are there advantages to starting with mysticism other than founding a religion? I try to avoid Wonders if I'm not Industrious, so I can't really comment on early access to Stonehenge with Saladin.
I think so, too. Like the Chinese leaders, as well, he has a beautiful UB for a Cultual Victory, though.
patagonia
Emperor
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2006
- Messages
- 1,025
If memory serves, there was one early on with one of the English leaders (either Vicky or Liz).
With the changes in BtS and the obscene amounts of culture you can bring in via CreCon or Sushi, there's no need to switch off research to get you to the finish line. I've played games where my last two cities have hit legendary the same turn as my spaceship's arrived or I've hit domination.
True, you don't win quite as early as you might otherwise do, but by keeping up in tech rather than throwing the slider post-liberalism you get to make more use of your empire and make the final 50-100 turns more interesting to play out.
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
It was the England/Vicky game, and it was won without touching the research slider; we leveraged Caste System and artist specialists instead.
To answer Nares' query above, a game that makes more use of religion does seem appealing. It's not a strategy I usually adopt--hence the appeal. It doesn't have to be an early religion; that would, as many of you assert, depend upon having a commerce bonus right from the start. Nevertheless, it's the main way to leverage starting with Mysticism. And I see nothing wrong (as Saladin did) with backing up your religious convictions with a lot of big, sharp, pointy sticks. Protective should help us withstand assaults from infidels.
The Pyramids, like several other wonders, may have to depend upon the availability of the accelerating resources. However, building Stonehenge would assist with producing a Great Prophet early and, again, is another way to leverage starting with Mysticism.
I see our two mid-game goals as being Philosophy, for the Angkor Wat, and Guilds, for Camel Archers.
This leaves us looking at techs such as Feudalism, Machinery, Metal Casting and Monarchy to research, along with Code of Laws and Construction. Techs we'll be looking to bulb are Theology (Great Prophet) and Philosophy (Great Scientist).
Wonders we're looking at are the Apostolic Palace, Angkor Wat, the Oracle and the Great Library.
I want to suggest possibly burning the Oracle on Alphabet, and researching Literature early for an early Great Library. Philosophy is researched much earlier by a Great Scientist than by a Great Prophet, who would also require us to learn Civil Service, as well as other techs, probably including Literature and Music, before we could bulb Philosophy.
I don't think you need to race for a religion. Your UB allows you to run Priest specialists without building a Temple. If you pursue the Oracle, you'll have your UB early, and can pop your first Great Prophet fairly early, and will almost assuredly receive the religion from an early Theology.
You may even be able to pop a second Great Prophet early enough to research Code of Laws.
Another suggestion would be to pop the Oracle on Metal Casting, and a second Great Prophet on Code of Laws.
I think early tech choices are limited to Mining, Bronze Working, and two of the three following; Agriculture, Fishing and Hunting. Hopefully you won't start anywhere near the coast, because Agriculture/Hunting would be the best option.
Polytheism to Priesthood, and preferably Pottery to Writing, though substitute Animal Husbandry if necessary for a resource. Meditation, Masonry, and Monotheism before your first Great Prophet pops. Polytheism and Pottery are both commonly required techs. I think you may also want to consider a pseudo-hybrid economy, basically consisting of a Cottage-based capital for synergy with Bureaucracy once you've researched Civil Service. Priests don't work so well with Bureaucracy, and you may want to run Bureaucracy when not building units, provided the economic trade-off supports switching from Vassalage to Bureaucracy.
I'm honestly not quite sure the cost trade-off between the increased unit allowance and the "High Upkeep" of Vassalage as opposed to the "Medium Upkeep" of Bureaucracy and the loss of the increased unit allowance. I'm assuming the increased commerce and production in your capital is a non-factor here, though with the right capital it could be a factor as well.
I'm curious if Walls are included in the power graph or not. Cheap walls could be leveraged into holding off the AI until Feudalism. Also, what are the tech research discount rates? Could someone please provide a brief refresher on the discount, or possibly point me at a thread discussing it?
You've got some serious beakers to cover between Writing and Guilds. Metal Casting (700), Machinery (700), Monarchy (300), Feudalism (700) and Guilds (1000) itself are all beaker intensive. I offered an early Great Library as a means of amping up your research. Your options for the Oracle are Code of Laws (350), Alphabet (300) and Metal Casting (450). There's a pretty big difference between 450 and 300, and the Great Library requires an additional 200 beakers for Literature, while roughly 50 turns makes up the initial beaker difference.
But you'll also need the Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy. I think it depends on if you want the Great Scientist to be your second or third Great Person, and what you want to self-research or not. Metal Casting, while the most beaker intensive, offers the least improvement, and at some point Code of Laws becomes a necessity. While that 50 turn number roughly holds up against Metal Casting, which offers little improvement unless there are gold, silver or gems nearby, I don't think the roughly 36 turns it takes to makeup the beaker difference against Code of Laws is quite so sound.
This leaves us looking at techs such as Feudalism, Machinery, Metal Casting and Monarchy to research, along with Code of Laws and Construction. Techs we'll be looking to bulb are Theology (Great Prophet) and Philosophy (Great Scientist).
Wonders we're looking at are the Apostolic Palace, Angkor Wat, the Oracle and the Great Library.
I want to suggest possibly burning the Oracle on Alphabet, and researching Literature early for an early Great Library. Philosophy is researched much earlier by a Great Scientist than by a Great Prophet, who would also require us to learn Civil Service, as well as other techs, probably including Literature and Music, before we could bulb Philosophy.
I don't think you need to race for a religion. Your UB allows you to run Priest specialists without building a Temple. If you pursue the Oracle, you'll have your UB early, and can pop your first Great Prophet fairly early, and will almost assuredly receive the religion from an early Theology.
You may even be able to pop a second Great Prophet early enough to research Code of Laws.
Another suggestion would be to pop the Oracle on Metal Casting, and a second Great Prophet on Code of Laws.
I think early tech choices are limited to Mining, Bronze Working, and two of the three following; Agriculture, Fishing and Hunting. Hopefully you won't start anywhere near the coast, because Agriculture/Hunting would be the best option.
Polytheism to Priesthood, and preferably Pottery to Writing, though substitute Animal Husbandry if necessary for a resource. Meditation, Masonry, and Monotheism before your first Great Prophet pops. Polytheism and Pottery are both commonly required techs. I think you may also want to consider a pseudo-hybrid economy, basically consisting of a Cottage-based capital for synergy with Bureaucracy once you've researched Civil Service. Priests don't work so well with Bureaucracy, and you may want to run Bureaucracy when not building units, provided the economic trade-off supports switching from Vassalage to Bureaucracy.
I'm honestly not quite sure the cost trade-off between the increased unit allowance and the "High Upkeep" of Vassalage as opposed to the "Medium Upkeep" of Bureaucracy and the loss of the increased unit allowance. I'm assuming the increased commerce and production in your capital is a non-factor here, though with the right capital it could be a factor as well.
I'm curious if Walls are included in the power graph or not. Cheap walls could be leveraged into holding off the AI until Feudalism. Also, what are the tech research discount rates? Could someone please provide a brief refresher on the discount, or possibly point me at a thread discussing it?
You've got some serious beakers to cover between Writing and Guilds. Metal Casting (700), Machinery (700), Monarchy (300), Feudalism (700) and Guilds (1000) itself are all beaker intensive. I offered an early Great Library as a means of amping up your research. Your options for the Oracle are Code of Laws (350), Alphabet (300) and Metal Casting (450). There's a pretty big difference between 450 and 300, and the Great Library requires an additional 200 beakers for Literature, while roughly 50 turns makes up the initial beaker difference.
But you'll also need the Great Scientist to bulb Philosophy. I think it depends on if you want the Great Scientist to be your second or third Great Person, and what you want to self-research or not. Metal Casting, while the most beaker intensive, offers the least improvement, and at some point Code of Laws becomes a necessity. While that 50 turn number roughly holds up against Metal Casting, which offers little improvement unless there are gold, silver or gems nearby, I don't think the roughly 36 turns it takes to makeup the beaker difference against Code of Laws is quite so sound.
Froggie818
Chieftain
look he's playing chieftain
Hrm...you noticed that, huh?
That's not the sad part...the sad part is that I still lose...sometimes!
I managed to get as far as Noble in Vanilla before getting BtS. (Only had it for nine months or so...)
At the rate I get to play, I expect to be up to Immortal sometime around when Civ VII or VIII comes out....
Fast Guilds... I wonder if it would be possible to make a strategy around getting first to Guilds and pump some superfast Knights? Oracle -> Metal Casting, stifle the AI by bribing them into wars, and sail to the Guilds? But I don't think so, I devised it only on a paper...
But I don't think so, I devised it only on a paper...
r_rolo1
King of myself
Fast Guilds... I wonder if it would be possible to make a strategy around getting first to Guilds and pump some superfast Knights? Oracle -> Metal Casting, stifle the AI by bribing them into wars, and sail to the Guilds?
Fast Guilds would need fast machinery and fast feudalism, and they aren't easy to articulate. In theory you could bubble machinery with a GE after a a Oracle MC ->run engineer strat but the Feudalism part is not that easy (AFAIK it is hard as hell to bubble Feudalism... I don't even remember if that is possible )......
I think that a religiously based strat would be far stronger.....
The MC slingshot isn't really plausible. While it's the greatest beaker return from the available techs, it's opportunity cost is too high, especially with early REXing.
More practically, you need to grab Code of Laws rather than Metal Casting. The beaker difference isn't astronomical, but the Courthouses are absolutely vital to expansion. You also need to pick up a few other vital techs, including Alphabet and Construction, in order to adequately position yourself for the middle ages.
You're right, Feudalism is difficult to bulb. So difficult that it's not even worth discussing. However, it can be traded for. Tech towards Guilds, and use Great People to tech towards Philosophy. Trade for Feudalism and (possibly) Monarchy.
I like the concept of using the Oracle to research Alphabet. We'll hopefully be able to trade Theology around, and possibly Metal Casting. But again, we'll need to research Literacy and build the Great Library before seeing any return, as well as research Code of Laws to accommodate expansion.
But at least Alphabet puts us in a better position for the subsequent turns than Metal Casting would, even if we delay researching Literacy in favor of Code of Laws. I think we might only be able to get away with it by running early Priests to help support our economy.
r_rolo1
King of myself
I agree... but I was only stating the more singleminded guilds beeline that I could think on 
I would use Saladin pretty much as I would use one of the Egyptians: Tech to Writing via priesthood and oracle Theo or CoL ( depending of how you want to use the first prophet ). Build the AP while teching to Paper/DR/Philo, try a stab in Music, all for the wonders ( religions can be optional )..... If you get it in time, You're heavily railed towards a cultural win, with a possible Domination sidetrack....
Of course that would leave the UU unused....
I would use Saladin pretty much as I would use one of the Egyptians: Tech to Writing via priesthood and oracle Theo or CoL ( depending of how you want to use the first prophet ). Build the AP while teching to Paper/DR/Philo, try a stab in Music, all for the wonders ( religions can be optional )..... If you get it in time, You're heavily railed towards a cultural win, with a possible Domination sidetrack....
Of course that would leave the UU unused....
VoiceOfUnreason
Deity
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2005
- Messages
- 3,663
Well, the new computer won't be showing up until early next week
The first few days of the real discussion are all wrapped up in scout/settler observations. You've had volunteers verify starts for you before; why not nominate someone (meaning someone else - this is my idea; that excuses me from actual labor) to roll you a start, and post the opening screenie?
By the time the smoke clears, you'll have had time to install, patch, etc.
ParadigmShifter
Random Nonsense Generator
I said that in post #84!
r_rolo1 is your man if you want a start generating I think.
r_rolo1 is your man if you want a start generating I think.
r_rolo1
King of myself
If S man wants it, I think I can do that. Just need the shopping list ( type of map mainly... all the rest in ALC is normally the same )....
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Check your PMs...
Unfortunately, Guilds is probably one of the worst techs to beeline towards.I agree... but I was only stating the more singleminded guilds beeline that I could think on
Machinery without Civil Service leaves you halfway to Macemen, but you have the "lesser" half. You don't really want to trade it, either, because you don't want to aid the AI towards Engineering. It's also only researchable by a Great Engineer, a difficult Great Person to come by.
The AI favorite, Feudalism, is almost a guaranteed non-trade. Being heavily favored, the AI prefers to research it itself, and in most conventional games will be partially through it before you can trade it away, and is typically unwilling to trade it away to you. I'm hoping that Metal Casting plus Theology might warm an AI up to the trade.
Guilds is also reasonably outside the key techs of Code of Laws and Construction, and we still haven't touched Alphabet, or the slightly less useful, but requisite tech, Monarchy.
Perhaps an early religion will be necessary to facilitate a key tech trade or two. I think we'll definitely want to trade for Feudalism. What we can offer is limited.
Theology, assuming we're far enough along with the Apostolic Palace. Literacy, if it's researched and we're far enough along with the Great Library. Metal Casting, which I don't even want to think about because it's beaker intensive and offers so little.
PS: I've tried searching the S&T Articles forum for a thread pertaining to tech research discounts. The search turned up nothing. So, would someone be willing to provide a brief refresher on the tech discounts?
