ALC Game #22 Pre-Game Show: Playing as Saladin

[AndiD]

One sidenote regarding quests in mid-game - both the "build castles" quest (for protective leaders?) and the "blessed" quest (dunno for which ones) could be interesting. The former for getting a relations boost even with the "heathens" (you have to know them at the time of the quest to get the relations boost, though) maybe for AP votes of the minor members and the latter for actually spreading a religion around.

Not something to focus on but certainly nice to have should the quests come up.

BTW, longtime lurker here - am considering jumping to Monarch right now after several resounding victories on Prince after reading much of the ALC threads. Just missing experience so far for cases I haven't seen or handled before (and in these cases I usually get handled...).

 

[idiot_savant]

I wouldn't necessarily call this a synergy, but Saladin does have a lot of parts that all sort of add together....

1) He's got a resourceless unique unit
2) He's got buffed archers/gunpowder units, which are also resourceless (at least for a while).
3) His starting techs don't offer you much of a jump start in expanding anyway
4) The library offers extra priest slots.
5) Spiritual means running up the religious branch anyway (unless you want to turn left for the S'Paya)

It looks to me like a lot of pieces that fit fairly well with an Obsolete uber-Capital approach, with a specialist economy running on the fringes.

I wonder if these points don't lend themselves to a religious approach that beelines to Feudalism for superpowered via Protective and Vassalage longbows early. I don't have my tech trees handy, but I believe that also leads to Guilds which queues the Camel Archer iirc.

A priest economy can drive both hammers and gold, while focusing techs to Feudalism allows a pseudo religious approach and balances that with a protective based early army. Sounds to me while harder to pull off at these levels like there is a lot of synergy to this type of approach,

 

[Chrispy]

As pointed out above, researching Meditation, Polytheism (the likely one to start with for an early religion), Priesthood, and Monotheism (and the prereq Masonry) opens up Theology as a bulb from a prophet.

I've always found Saladin to be the least dependent on location. You can survive somewhow without metal, and can build knights without iron or horses. One of the best moves for Saladin is Oracle to take Feudalism if you can pull it off, but it's not easy since you need Monarchy first.

I agree about prioritizing Animal Husbandry. You have the Wheel already to hook up horses and build chariots, but it also opens up Writing faster for the Madrassa. But I'd research Hunting as the prereq instead of Agriculture unless you have a grain in the capital. That would open up Archery as well as AH. Having deer or fur or ivory would make the decision even easier.

I think it's been quite a while since you've tried a cultural win, and with Saladin and a double culture library and potentially multiple religions between an early one and popping prophets, this strategy works well. I know it's too early to start such talk, but I would definitely keep cultural in mind with Saladin. It plays well with protective.

 

[Daedal]

I like VoU's idea to turn this into a super-capitol wonderspam game... with one teensy deviation if possible. Build a second city early and found a religion (or two?) there. The wonderspam game is already powerful enough, but if you have a second city devoted to religion/commerce, I think you'd be even better off. Stone will be crucial for this and you should prioritize priest specialists in the wonders you choose and the specialists you assign. Send one off to pop the Islamic shrine and settle the rest in your capitol.

The victory condition is completely up in the air if you go for a wonderspam game. Maybe an early AP victory would be most appropriate? It would give you a chance to show off your diplomacy skills before they're put to the test even more when you move up a level.

 

[Kev]

My first cultural win was with Saladin, and he works well for this although I think many people feel Philosophical leaders are better (though in general spiritual helps a great deal on its own).

With a good amount of food around, the SE is key, but having access to more of the priest specialists early (and later) really can help with regard to hammers. With this, do not underestimate the power of the Angkor Wat in this mix. Sistine and Pyramids are always powerful to have when going for a cultural victory, but the extra hammers involved with the priests are quite helpful indeed.

I still would be interested in getting some religions on board. We need not change to a specific one right away, and we can wait to see how our neighbors are looking before we decide what to do. Nice to have some Holy Cities that we might use to generate some extra income - we're bound to get our share of Great Prophets given the situation. Also, it goes without saying that the more religions we have the more culture we can generate.

Yes, all of the above is based upon starting out with the cultural victory in mind. I understand that circumstances can change rather quickly.

 

[Bandobras Took]

One possibility mentioned in several "leveraging protective" threads is to deliberately piss off the AI into declaring war on you and letting them kill themselves trying to take out your protective units. The extra culture from the Madrassa could let you put a city right up on the border so they keep trying to kill you.

Of course, I don't know if that works on your difficulty level, which is way out of my league. Protective+mounted UU means you really don't need to worry about diplomacy as much, you can handle attacks.

Personally, if it were a lower level, I'd ask for a resourceless army game -- nothing but archers, Camel Archers, gunpowder, siege -- give the axemen and macemen a complete miss. Not sure if that's feasible on higher levels.

 

[andersw]

Ooh Saladin, poor sod.
Even at far lower difficulties I've had troubles getting a religion with him.
But the gamble for buddism(or whatever you choose to call it) may be worth it if you get a luxury.
Since I'm somewhat of a noob I then have the trouble with the others disliking me for having the wrong religion
I'd say turtling and going for culture win sounds appealing eventhough it of course depends on how the game evolves.

 

[madscientist]

About early religion, Sal has the best upside here.

1) He is 1 tech from unlocking the oracle. He can tech Monotheism/writing to get Theology for free OR tech Monarchy and get Fuedalism for free. Pick you method for that extra promotion.

2) The UB: Priest galore! No need for early temples, the UB covers science, religion, and culture all with one building. Easy to get a shrine and bulb theology VERY early.

3) Because of option 1 and 2 he should be a lock for first to the AP.

4) There is NO need to adopt the founded religion right away, and being spiritual we can switch out easily enough to adapt to the religous flavor of the month.

So go

Religion
Food
Defense

in that order!!!!

 

[ese-aSH]

One possibility mentioned in several "leveraging protective" threads is to deliberately piss off the AI into declaring war on you and letting them kill themselves trying to take out your protective units. The extra culture from the Madrassa could let you put a city right up on the border so they keep trying to kill you.

I totally aggree :
the +4 culture from the madrassa will create diplomatic tensions, and probably lead to AI DoW if you dont share the same religion.
but there you'll have archer (or long bow) city defender lvl 3 + walls, and hopefully mounted units to counter siege weapons.

spying shall not be neglected either : if you rush philosophy & divine right (to get both spiral minaret and anghkor wat), you'll probably loose the liberalism race.
but with the cheap castle you'll have a short period to spy your neighboors then you should be able to catch up and when constitution comes (supposing you missed the pyramids) you shouldn't be lost in the tech race.

 

[ese-aSH]

With a good amount of food around, the SE is key, but having access to more of the priest specialists early (and later) really can help with regard to hammers. With this, do not underestimate the power of the Angkor Wat in this mix. Sistine and Pyramids are always powerful to have when going for a cultural victory, but the extra hammers involved with the priests are quite helpful indeed.

totaly agree, anghor wat is a must have there, and it seems to me that sistine is too. pyramids are not that important since they dont give a unique bonus (once constitution is discovered, who cares to have the mids ?)

 

[Bleys]

I would push for the Pyramids, even if you dont have stone. Its really turbo-fires an SE based on Priests, especially if you plan to settle a few GPs. You can get so much mileage from it with this kind of game. AP + A.Wat + UoS is powerful with leaders like Sal or the Egyptions, add the Pyramids and its almost a sure win. Protective means you can practically turtle up, let the AI beat itself on your walled LBs, and cash in those GGs you're bound to generate later when its time to go a stomping yourself.

Very few leaders have such a huge difference between "with Mids" and "without Mids". An SE with Sal based on leveraging Priests early and often is one, IMHO.

 

[Artichoker]

I've never played a complete game as Saladin, but I know that the Madrassa is a great building to have.

First of all, the extra culture is great for the medieval era, when non-Creative leaders pay the full price for a Library to get +2 Culture (which is the next-best thing to Monuments before Theatres become available). But you get +4 Culture, making the building a good buy even though you pay the normal hammer cost.

As far as being able to run Priests instead of Scientists, I look at it as an add-on to an already strong building. Assuming that you do build the Madrassa in cities that are ready to build it, the extra hammers you get from the Priest specialists can help you with military production.

Now, the big question, is whether you try to start a new religion early. I think the simple answer is play it safe and let the AIs start religions, and reap the benefits from the religion spreading to your own cities. Just be careful that if the founding civ of that religion gets too strong, you'll probably need to trim him down...

 

[oyzar]

Get AP/UoS/SM and spam cities with temples and monastaries everywhere and beat everyone with a massive army of drafted gunpowder units...

 

[Bandobras Took]

Get AP/UoS/SM and spam cities with temples and monastaries everywhere and beat everyone with a massive army of drafted gunpowder units...

Isn't the first half of that the job of an Industrious leader?

 

[Mesousa]

Maybe it could turn into a wonderspam game, if you get both stone and marble, and there's no industrious leader with either, but I don't think it's something you can plan to do beforehand with this leader on this difficulty.

I like OTAKUjbski's idea of using Refar's random map script. Why go with fractal when you can have it more random, while excluding the more extreme map types (pangea, archipelago, terra).

 

[andersw]

Indeed we need to see the starting position for resources both for possible wonder(s) (remember no industrious) and for a possible early religion.

Will this game also feature "no tech brokering" ?

What about random climate?
or is the computer not good enough to handle extreme conditions (eg cold/rocky etc).

/Anders

 

[ParadigmShifter]

In my experience (well, Ice Age maps), the computer still spams cities even if they have no food or long term potential. That was warlords though where they REX pretty fast compared to BtS.

 

[Sisiutil]

I like OTAKUjbski's idea of using Refar's random map script. Why go with fractal when you can have it more random, while excluding the more extreme map types (pangea, archipelago, terra).

I'm hesitant to use too much that isn't "in-game" in the ALCs; using Bhruic's patches is as much as I like to push things. So while I may try these scripts off-line, I don't know if I'll use them for an ALC--the same way I don't use mods.

A wonder-spamming game is an interesting proposition, especially for a non-Industrious leader. I think my decision on that will depend on the map, especially what resources (stone, marble, etc.) are available. I am willing to go to war for stone, as I said, but that is at odds with the turtle-and-build strategy.

 

[madscientist]

Wonderspamming is definitely doable with any leader, but greatly depends on the map. If Sal endsup on a coast with a pair of seafood resources and a fewhills wonderspamming won't seam right.

Generally, I will wonderspam on landlocked capitals.

 

[Gwil]

I'd like to see Saladin grab the AP and perhaps demonstrate its uses beyond just getting the diplomatic victory. If you're head of a powerful bloc (hopefully Islamic if you keep "choose religion" on), it'd be interesting to see how you can sting the other blocs or isolated states by being the religious leader.