ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[patagonia]

I like the idea of a medieval-era war against Saladin. Walls and Castles can make it a tough slog sometimes, but that just requires more Accuracy Catapults (I find around 8 of them will remove all defenses unless my opponent has Chichen Itza).

Doesn't an accuracy catapult only remove 6% of a castle's defences now? That's a whole lotta cats and trebs aren't significantly better; it's only when you hit accuracy cannons (20%) that you're really in business without a truckload of siege.

Don't forget the inherent withdrawal bonus and flanking damage camel archers can do your medieval stack, especially without a medic 3 to bump units up periodically.

 

[Validator]

Doesn't an accuracy catapult only remove 6% of a castle's defences now? That's a whole lotta cats and trebs aren't significantly better; it's only when you hit accuracy cannons (20%) that you're really in business without a truckload of siege.

Accuracy cats only lower castle defenses by 4% / turn, the same as non-Accuracy trebs. Accuracy trebs lower castle defenses by 6% / turn.

So it will take 17 accuracy trebs to completely remove castle defenses in a single turn.

I'm not sure where Sisiutil got his numbers from.

 

[CivCorpse]

Why are we talking MG's vs Maces? I highly doubt Sis is going to delay the assault until Saladin gets Railroad. But regarless of what units Sis chooses to build, farming the cottages in Aksum and working those mines should be a priority.

 

[CivCorpse]

Focus EPs on Sal and use spies to drop defenses.

 

[Validator]

I have been checking nearby Arabian cities, I haven't seen a stack, and Saladin is not in WHEOOHRN mode last time I checked.

A word of caution related to using WHEOOHRN as a warning for attacks. AFAIK there's no minimum number of turns that an AI will be in WHEOOHRN mode once it makes the decision to go to war.

My understanding is that it analyzes the situation and decides if it has enough troops to start the war. If not it will build more troops until it's ready. But if it determines that it has enough troops on the turn when it decided to go to war it will move the units to the front and declare right away.

So you can't count on getting a WHEOOHRN warning.

In this case if Saladin doesn't have a SOD sitting around somewhere then a quick DOW doesn't seem likely.

Although in that case it's not clear why Saladin's power would be so much higher than yours.

 

[CivCorpse]

A word of caution related to using WHEOOHRN as a warning for attacks. AFAIK there's no minimum number of turns that an AI will be in WHEOOHRN mode once it makes the decision to go to war.

My understanding is that it analyzes the situation and decides if it has enough troops to start the war. If not it will build more troops until it's ready. But if it determines that it has enough troops on the turn when it decided to go to war it will move the units to the front and declare right away.

So you can't count on getting a WHEOOHRN warning.

In this case if Saladin doesn't have a SOD sitting around somewhere then a quick DOW doesn't seem likely.

Although in that case it's not clear why Saladin's power would be so much higher than yours.

Saladin DOES have a couple units fortified in your lands. and is moving a stack of 3 Chariots with an axeman for support. That is a classic Ai pilliging stack. I think he is in the process of scouting your lands for a war as we speak.

 

[carl corey]

Why are we talking MG's vs Maces?

Someone on the previous page said it would be best to get Grens and Cannons, and that Grens have the benefit of not obsoleting Maces. I said that Rifles also don't obsolete Maces, and then tried to give the list of units that does obsolete them. Back to your regular schedule.

 

[Artichoker]

I rather like the idea of switching to Vassalage and Free Religion and saving the GS for either Education or an Academy (I'm inclined toward the former). If I'm going to go to war with Saladin, what's the point in cozying up to him via a shared religion?

This option has potentially more dividends down the road, if the war turns out to be successful. As your population grows through city conquest, the free unit bonus of Vassalage will grow. With the Organized trait, this bonus becomes more visible in comparison to the civic upkeep cost.

So I reckon that with a large enough empire (assuming the war is successful), the Vassalage + Free Religion option remains competitive even after Nationhood and Free Speech become available. This not only spares you the Anarchy needed to switch into the new civics, but also spares you the cost of gaining the techs that unlock the new civics.

 

[popejubal]

I don't really see an economic gain by intentionally losing out on the Colossus. It would yield at best 349 , which is only enough for a couple of axe->mace upgrades or several turns of deficit research at 100% (instead of breakeven 70%).

That 375 gold max (or a bit more if you whip something on the turn after the Colossus is built) isn't about an axe->mace upgrade, so much as a look at what you get for the science. With no gold multipliers in any cities at all, (something I didn't realize when I wrote my first post) this is going to be worth even more science-equivalent.

I'm not saying that getting the Colossus would be a tragedy, just that losing the Colossus would be a help to the empire and that the short term gain of gold might outweigh the medium term gain of having 5-15 extra commerce per turn until Astronomy along with a few extra Great Merchant points. It wouldn't be that significant if it weren't coming at a time when Sisiutil is planning an expedition to take Saladin's empire with techs he doesn't yet have. A little deficit research from that 375 gold could shave a couple of turns off the research and make the invasion easier and safer.

In fact, if it shaves a turn or two off the pre-invasion waiting-for-military-techs schedule and saves a turn or two of war, any lost commerce from the Colossus would be more than made up by the extra turns of commerce from Saladin's cities and saved hammers from units that didn't have to be sacrificed in the attack.


...now, if Sis is going to wait for more than a couple of techs to attack (especially if you wait until after Liberalism), then this short term cash windfall won't make much of a difference compared to the extra commerce from a completed Colossus, but it's at least something to consider.

 

[vanatteveldt]

But if nobody builds the colossus soon, the hammer are totally wasted...

 

[CivCorpse]

But if nobody builds the colossus soon, the hammer are totally wasted...

No, if noone builds the colossus, then Sis gets the extra commerce. If he pulls off the colossus, I think Minoan should definately build the Maoao statues as soon as the forge is completed. That is enough commerce to justify whipping the colossus if possible to ensure he gets it. Babylon can regrow very quickly.

 

[popejubal]

No, if noone builds the colossus, then Sis gets the extra commerce. If he pulls off the colossus, I think Minoan should definately build the Maoao statues as soon as the forge is completed. That is enough commerce to justify whipping the colossus if possible to ensure he gets it. Babylon can regrow very quickly.

Building the Meow Statues is difficult in the cities where it is most effective. I'd suggest whipping a Barracks first (overflow hammers go to the Maeiou(y) Statues) and then crank out garrison units for your central cities until you have a source for those extra 2 XP. Once you have 5XP units coming out of Minoan, you can start producing units for the upcoming war. Obviously, the overflow from each of these units should go into a turn of production for the Giant Stone Heads.

 

[vanatteveldt]

No, if noone builds the colossus, then Sis gets the extra commerce.

I was arguing against deliberately stopping production at 99% complete to get the gold for the short term benefit, since it is unknown when the gold will come...

 

[civvver]

Slightly off topic- what's DOW stand for? And by WHEOOHRN mode we just mean war mode, building units/buildings for war?

 

[semirami]

Slightly off topic- what's DOW stand for? And by WHEOOHRN mode we just mean war mode, building units/buildings for war?

WHEOOHRN- We have enough on our hands right now.
DoW- Declaration of war

 

[carl corey]

DOW means Declaration of War, and WHEOOHRN means We Have Enough On Our Hands Right Now, which is what an AI that prepares for a war will tell you if you try to get him to declare war on someone.

 

[Silverdawn]

Slightly off topic- what's DOW stand for?

Declaration of War

 

[Der Graf]

Slightly off topic- what's DOW stand for? And by WHEOOHRN mode we just mean war mode, building units/buildings for war?

DOW= Declaration of War

 

[Validator]

That 375 gold max (or a bit more if you whip something on the turn after the Colossus is built) isn't about an axe->mace upgrade, so much as a look at what you get for the science. With no gold multipliers in any cities at all, (something I didn't realize when I wrote my first post) this is going to be worth even more science-equivalent.

I'm not saying that getting the Colossus would be a tragedy, just that losing the Colossus would be a help to the empire and that the short term gain of gold might outweigh the medium term gain of having 5-15 extra commerce per turn until Astronomy along with a few extra Great Merchant points. It wouldn't be that significant if it weren't coming at a time when Sisiutil is planning an expedition to take Saladin's empire with techs he doesn't yet have. A little deficit research from that 375 gold could shave a couple of turns off the research and make the invasion easier and safer.

In fact, if it shaves a turn or two off the pre-invasion waiting-for-military-techs schedule and saves a turn or two of war, any lost commerce from the Colossus would be more than made up by the extra turns of commerce from Saladin's cities and saved hammers from units that didn't have to be sacrificed in the attack.


...now, if Sis is going to wait for more than a couple of techs to attack (especially if you wait until after Liberalism), then this short term cash windfall won't make much of a difference compared to the extra commerce from a completed Colossus, but it's at least something to consider.

Missing out on Colossus will provide a small short term advantage, but I don't see it being able to help in any way related to war with Saladin.

Even if the from the missed wonder equates to 500 because of libraries, that only equates to 3 to 4 turns of research advantage due to deficit research opportunity. OTOH completing Colossus will provide for about 10 to 12 extra /turn. So the research advantage won't last long. It'll only take about 40 or 50 turns for a completed Colossus to outperform the option of losing out on the wonder.

Of course as vanatteveldt pointed out the AIs might not cooperate by building Colossus as soon as Sisiutil stops, so the losing out on the wonder option will actual fall behind the completion option due to the extra /turn from Colossus.

Also the current tech situation doesn't seem to provide a benefit from quick researching of military techs. Sisiutil already has the techs to build maces, LBs and x-bows but his cities are tied up with other builds. Engineering will be done a couple of turns after Colossus would be completed (or put on hold) so the decision won't have any impact on when that tech is acquired. That will add trebs and pikes to the available build options. The only medieval military tech left would be Guilds, which isn't really necessary and it will completed in sufficient time regardless of what happens with Colossus to allow Sisiutil to add some Knights to the build queue in time for the invasion.

So I don't see any impact on a medieval war. And if Sisiutil ends up waiting for a gunpowder war then completing Colossus would clearly be the better option.

Finally there are the other intangible benefits of completing Colossus: the GPPs (with Babylon possibly getting NE at some point) and the denial factor of keeping the wonder out of the hand of one of the AIs.

 

[Sisiutil]

I'm not sure where Sisiutil got his numbers from.

Same lower body aperture I always get 'em from...