ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

[Sisiutil]

You really need to get Saladin to declare on you, avoid the demerit points for declaring, so look vulnerable but be strong... you figure it out...

Normally I'd do that by building up units in my cities' queues before switching civics to Vassalage and Theocracy.

But then there's CivCorpse's alternative to consider (which would involve a switch to Theo anyway). And by the way, CC, if I switch to Theo to get Saladin to like me, then it wasn't such a bad trade after all, was it?

EDIT: Seriously, though, what does everyone think of CC's suggestion: switch to Islam and Theo, research Astronomy, invade Darius, leave Saladin alone or for later? I have a holy city now with a shrine after all...

 

[pax]

One small thing to consider, which I found in a recent game: Knights and Camel Archers do not do flanking damage to Cannon. They can only flank Trebuchets and Catapults. Thus, one advantage of waiting for Steel is, you don't care about Camel Archers.

(Of course, if Saladin is going for Military Tradition, which unlocks Curassiers, well, that's a problem. Curassiers can flank Cannon. Bummer.)

 

[CivCorpse]

OK, I checked the save briefly. There is good news and there is bad news.
The good news is you won't be getting a diplomatic hit from your war with saladin. The bad news is Saladin WHEOOHRN. He is Friendly with Ragnar and Justinian. However there is this non-Islamic country to his Southwest that is the 2nd weakest civ in the game.
Stop building Trebs sis. you're not invading anyone. you, my good sir, are Jihad-bait. You need Pikes and Muskets. Pikes for the inevitable onslaught of mounted units. Muskets to protect your cities and Pikes in the field. I would definately consider switching to Military Science. Saladin is going to come over the border with Cuiriassiars. With shock they are a even match for c2/formation pikes. And if you try to counter attack his Sod the pikes get taken out by protective x-bows and maces. You can produce C2/Formation grens from all your cities. When attacking they have a slight edge over Cursedhorses if they have pinch. And pwn them if they don't. The majority of his CA's and WE in Kufah are either flanking2 or Combat2. which means when they get promoted your grens will slaughter them. Low production cities can produce a few barrage2 cats to soften the stack. With Aksum producing level4 knights under theo/vassalage you can then attack his stacks to eliminate the siege units. Consider saving a promotion for pinch since sal will probably be sending musckets soon as well.
Build/whip a freaking library in Minoan. A library would have been much much better than a harbor. The harbor increased your commerce in that city by exactly 1.5 With a library you can run scientists and work the water tiles while you WHIP units. You're in slavery and HR but have no whip anger in any of your cities. Imagine all those whipable citzens representing people with Airconditioning.
Run every possible specialist possible in baylon. When you get a GP use them for a GA to switch to Islam and theo/caste. While in the GA, run max scientists and an engineer in baylon to gobble GPP. Switch back to slavery right before the GA ends.
while in the GA, mover all your workers in Minoan to water tiles for the hammer and commerce boost. Whip a grocer and market there as well. Even after the GA stay on water tiles until you have the population you need to work all the water tiles plus the workshops and incense. Or until you can run a pile of specialists while stil working all the coastal tiles.
During the imminent war with saladin try and grab one of his southern border cities in case you can offer it for peace. Hopefully, once you get peace the islam/theo diplomatic bonus will get saladin up to friendly so you can turn your attention elsewhere(as in darius)

 

[CivCorpse]

). And by the way, CC, if I switch to Theo to get Saladin to like me, then it wasn't such a bad trade after all, was it?

Considering you have the Shewan paya and could switch to theocracy even without the trade?

). EDIT: Seriously, though, what does everyone think of CC's suggestion: switch to Islam and Theo, research Astronomy, invade Darius, leave Saladin alone or for later? I have a holy city now with a shrine after all...

Read my above 2nd post....Darius goes on the back burner while you try and survive Saladin's invasion. I would check Kufah each turn to see if the troop stack there increases. Also scout out his lands to see if he is building siege units. Or should I say WHERE.

 

[kazapp]

The bad news is Saladin WHEOOHRN. He is Friendly with Ragnar and Justinian. However there is this non-Islamic country to his Southwest that is the 2nd weakest civ in the game.

I, on the other hand, consider this very good news (and thank you for discovering it!) - I would be very much surprised if Sisiutil can't win the war against Saladin, and I am actually thankful it is against such a powerful enemy (It makes for a much more instructive read that way! ).

(Not that I'm convinced Saladin is that powerful, though. But he's the best fight on this map, so I guess I'll have to settle for him... )

Postponing the war until you can take Darius seems a much more dangerous way to go. Sisiutil needs to grow bigger now, or it might find its enemies too strong in the future... And despite Saladin having a greater power rating than Darius, I believe a war with Arabia will be (much) cheaper and faster than a medieval intercontinental invasion against Darius, especially considering the 3.17 patch.

On the third hand , winning against Saladin turns the game into a cake-walk. So perhaps the greatest educational value would come out of another approach...?

 

[Lord Parkin]

On the third hand , winning against Saladin turns the game into a cake-walk. So perhaps the greatest educational value would come out of another approach...?

Winning against Saladin will not be a cake-walk though, I suspect.

I agree with CivCorpse: build defensive military, survive the main invasion, then go bring the war to his lands. That's the plan, anyway.

 

[Tennyson]

I was gonna suggest getting Saladin to attack you, but since you've already handled that task...good show!

It's late enough that I would expect an attack by sea from another civ at the same time. No point in building a big Navy at this point, just have enough Knights to defeat and harass whatever the Galleons land.

(I'm not gonna load the save, but make sure that there's no trees on a coastal square that threatens a city).

 

[kazapp]

Winning against Saladin will not be a cake-walk though, I suspect.

I agree with CivCorpse: build defensive military, survive the main invasion, then go bring the war to his lands. That's the plan, anyway.

Perhaps I just misunderstood CivCorpse, but I read "Darius goes on the back burner while you try and survive Saladin's invasion" as a plan not conquering Saladin's lands. Perhaps that was a plan before WHEOOHRN came into the picture, though...

Obviously I agree with you: forget about Darius (for a long, long time at least) and focus entirely on Arabia!

 

[PaulusIII]

To stick with unintelligible acronyms - why did you trade for useless techs such as Music and Theology if you know that you're going to hit WFYABTA because of that?

If you have the Shwedagon Paya and you don't intend to build the AP, Theology is useless. If you do not go for a culture win or head for Military Tradition, Music is useless.

And yes, Sal's going to attack somebody - possibly you. Darius is in WHEOOHRN as well (!), however you need not worry about him. He's probably going to drive another nail in Ragnar's coffin.

 

[Artichoker]

OK, I checked the save briefly. There is good news and there is bad news.
The good news is you won't be getting a diplomatic hit from your war with saladin. The bad news is Saladin WHEOOHRN. He is Friendly with Ragnar and Justinian. However there is this non-Islamic country to his Southwest that is the 2nd weakest civ in the game.
Stop building Trebs sis. you're not invading anyone. you, my good sir, are Jihad-bait. You need Pikes and Muskets. Pikes for the inevitable onslaught of mounted units. Muskets to protect your cities and Pikes in the field. I would definately consider switching to Military Science. Saladin is going to come over the border with Cuiriassiars. With shock they are a even match for c2/formation pikes. And if you try to counter attack his Sod the pikes get taken out by protective x-bows and maces. You can produce C2/Formation grens from all your cities. When attacking they have a slight edge over Cursedhorses if they have pinch. And pwn them if they don't. The majority of his CA's and WE in Kufah are either flanking2 or Combat2. which means when they get promoted your grens will slaughter them. Low production cities can produce a few barrage2 cats to soften the stack. With Aksum producing level4 knights under theo/vassalage you can then attack his stacks to eliminate the siege units. Consider saving a promotion for pinch since sal will probably be sending musckets soon as well.
Build/whip a freaking library in Minoan. A library would have been much much better than a harbor. The harbor increased your commerce in that city by exactly 1.5 With a library you can run scientists and work the water tiles while you WHIP units. You're in slavery and HR but have no whip anger in any of your cities. Imagine all those whipable citzens representing people with Airconditioning.
Run every possible specialist possible in baylon. When you get a GP use them for a GA to switch to Islam and theo/caste. While in the GA, run max scientists and an engineer in baylon to gobble GPP. Switch back to slavery right before the GA ends.
while in the GA, mover all your workers in Minoan to water tiles for the hammer and commerce boost. Whip a grocer and market there as well. Even after the GA stay on water tiles until you have the population you need to work all the water tiles plus the workshops and incense. Or until you can run a pile of specialists while stil working all the coastal tiles.
During the imminent war with saladin try and grab one of his southern border cities in case you can offer it for peace. Hopefully, once you get peace the islam/theo diplomatic bonus will get saladin up to friendly so you can turn your attention elsewhere(as in darius)

Agree:

Military Science and Combat II/Formation Grenadiers...yes. Also, prepare some CRII Macemen, upgraded to Grenadiers for the counterinvasion.

Disagree:

Islam and Theocracy...no. We've come this far on Free Religion, and its advantages will only become better as we get closer to civs of varying religions. With FR, we will be able to keep the peace more easily where it is desired.


RE: countering Saladin's mounted units...We should use a combination of Combat II/Formation Pikemen and Combat II/Formation Grenadiers. Combine quantity with quality to get efficiency.

 

[Quotey]

HOW did PACAL get Lib? Jesus Christ, I don't want to think what would be happening if he was Mansa...

 

[Artichoker]

Keeping the peace up to now with Saladin seems to have paid off. With the science slider at 80% right now, thanks to the new Christian shrine, the +10% science bonus of Free Religion can be maximized. Looks like popping a Great Prophet was the best outcome...it's certainly better than a Great Scientist would have been.

Tech trading can take a break for now, at least until you've captured some of Saladin's important cities. After that, you should be able to safely trade away Chemistry and either Military Science or Steel (depending on which one you pursue).

Astronomy looks like a good tech target, once you have gained both Military Science and Steel. It will unlock Ships of the Line and Observatories, which are a cheaper version of Universities.

Watch for all the other civs to get Nationalism. After everyone gets it, its cost will have gone down significantly. At that point, it might be wise to backfill as a prerequisite for Constitution.

 

[DanF5771]

How about:

• avoiding the whip right now?
• really getting some GPs farmed in Babylon?
• by starting a GA with next GP and trying to trade for Banking so you can switch to Caste|Merc|Paci?
• going 100% Merchants (10 Merchants + 2 free Scientists (GLib) + 2 GPPs (GLib) + 1 GPP (NE) = 39 Base GPPs + 300% = 156 GPPs pt!)?
• sending 1+ GMs to Persepolis (ToA) or Carthage or Mutal?
• continuing to build Trebs and (deficit) researching Steel for quick upgrade to Cannons?
• trying to trade for Nationalism at the end of the GA to switch to Nationhood|Slavery|?|Theocracy?
• start whipping then + drafting for having a warm welcome of Sal's Camels and friends?

 

[ratrangerm]

I still don't see any point in switching to Islam and Theocracy. We want to go war with Saladin, but then we turn around and do things that would make him friendly with us?

As I said earlier, Barracks + Vassalage gives Sis Level 3 units. Adding Theocracy on top of that doesn't turn them into Level 4 units.

Let's not forget that if Sis adopts a religion, Mehmed will quickly become Annoyed with him, and at this point, Mehmed is probably a better guy to swap techs with than Darius or Hannibal, who either of which could really take off in the tech race thanks to being Financial.

As for Justinian and Ragnar, since there would be no diplomatic hit, I wouldn't worry about getting them to warm up further, especially since one or both of them are the likely next targets.

 

[CivCorpse]

Agree:

Military Science and Combat II/Formation Grenadiers...yes. Also, prepare some CRII Macemen, upgraded to Grenadiers for the counterinvasion.

Disagree:

Islam and Theocracy...no. We've come this far on Free Religion, and its advantages will only become better as we get closer to civs of varying religions. With FR, we will be able to keep the peace more easily where it is desired.


RE: countering Saladin's mounted units...We should use a combination of Combat II/Formation Pikemen and Combat II/Formation Grenadiers. Combine quantity with quality to get efficiency.

Winning the war with Saladin is going to be tough. If Justinian and Ragnar stop their war Sis can expect a dogpile. Justinian is Islamic and his favorite civic is Theocracy. Justinian is +3 with sis now. With both Islam and theo Sis can quickly get to +10 for friendly, thus avoiding the dogpile. Ragnar might join in, but he is the one civ that sis is actually stronger than. Getting Justinian to Friendly might be worth the 2 turns of anarchy to switch rather than waiting 7 turns for a GA. It will also eliminate the WFYABTA with Justinian and eventually Saladin if the war ends without taking his lands.
Sal is probably going to delay the DoW until he has MT and Gunpowder researched. Cross your fingers and hope the religion and civics switchs get you out of his gunsights. But prepare for a war. Kufah seems to be the staging point for his attack. It has been my experience that the AI begins massing the troops and brings in the siege at the last moment from somewhere else. Find where he is building siege units and post a chariot there. When the siege stack moves out gather your troops near Kufah. You need a spy in place as well. When the siege can be hit in one turn from Kufah by knights. Drop defenses in Kufah with a spy and slap some dispososiege then buthcher his SoD with your CR2 maces. When the city falls The move your knights on the now neutral roads to wipe out the siege. You get the diplohit from attacking sal but the only civ that likes him that matters is hannibal. Ragnar and Justinian will be mollified by the Islamic switch.
After MilSci head for astronomy. Someone said a strong navy is not important but I disagree. You have vital seafood to protect. Without that seafood babylon will shrink faster than Hillary's eclection chances. And Minoan will suffer greatly as well. Plus privateers are always nice. Before that you need a couple defensive caravels to proetct your resources from Saladin's galleys and caravels.

 

[CivCorpse]

I still don't see any point in switching to Islam and Theocracy. We want to go war with Saladin, but then we turn around and do things that would make him friendly with us?

As I said earlier, Barracks + Vassalage gives Sis Level 3 units. Adding Theocracy on top of that doesn't turn them into Level 4 units.

Let's not forget that if Sis adopts a religion, Mehmed will quickly become Annoyed with him, and at this point, Mehmed is probably a better guy to swap techs with than Darius or Hannibal, who either of which could really take off in the tech race thanks to being Financial.

As for Justinian and Ragnar, since there would be no diplomatic hit, I wouldn't worry about getting them to warm up further, especially since one or both of them are the likely next targets.

A. Due to WFYABTA Mehmed isn't trading techs with us anyway.
B. With theo and vassalage aksum can Produce level4 mounted units. And all other units are closer to getting the 3rd promotion.
C. Getting Justinian to friendly can avoid a dogpile on sis.

 

[Siesta Guru]

A few things..

Trade music to ragnar and optics to darius for those shiny coins, if you dont some ai player surely will.


Maybe you could stop a few of those recoruces for gold trade treaties you have going on there so you can repropose them for a few gold extra (some of them leaders have a little gold left)


The following is a thought which is ummm... random.. (I probably wouldnt do it myself). You might like it though.

After getting cannons and rifles, get astronomy and invade pacal instead of saladin, capture his holy city and the capital if he has a third city (didnt load the save), and offer him peace for some juicy techs. After hes had his 10 turns, fnish him off.
Doing this will be alot easier then killing saladin and it will you give a nice spot to start conquering mehmeds lands, and probably some nice techs aswell

 

[pigswill]

If Sally has already decided to declare on you there´s not much point trying to get him to friendly coz he´ll still declare.
A bunch of cannons will still decimate a stack. Better if you fight Sally in your territory where your cannon move 2-3 tiles on roads and Sally mounted units move only 2. Wiping out his stack in your territory also saves on WW (war weariness).
In my opinion a stack of cannon and muskets is more powerful than a stack of trebs and grenadiers (even against rifles).

 

[Validator]

I seem to recall that the rewards from this quest include an extra happy citizen or two from the Colosseums/Gardens, a Golden Age if you own the Statue of Zeus, and... something else.

From ori's random events strategy article:

Quest8:
	Sports League
	Prereq: CONSTRUCTION
	Obsolete: RADIO or REFRIGERATION or PLASTICS or SATELLITES or ADVANCED_FLIGHT or ECOLOGY
	Active/Weight: 25/500
		Aim:
		Build default number of players for this world size Colosseums (7 for standard)
		Result:
1.+1 happy face for every Colosseum
2.+4 culture for every collosseum
3.IF you control the Statue of Zeus wonder trigger a golden age

SoZ is in Konya, so I don't see any realistic chance to control it. Since we're talking about the UB it might make sense to pursue it even though +1 isn't a great reward.

He has Engineering and Guilds and a decent power rating, however, so he won't be a pushover.

By "decent" I guess you mean nearly double your own power rating.

It seems to me that if you were in a little better military position the current border status would allow you to take out 3 of Saladin's cities on the first turn of war (Kufah, Khurasan and Damascus). Unfortunately the borders may well have shifted before you're ready to attack. And it looks like you won't have the choice of controlling the timing of the war.


Two significant things I noticed from the save:

1. Hannibal founded Confucianism in that round (via DR) and converted. This has broken up the Jewish block, which is unfortunately somewhat of a mixed bag. The religious tension will likely lead to warfare at some point. This could weaken both of them, but if one wins the war (especially Hannibal) it could create an unstoppable force. And it will probably complicate the diplomatic situation at some point.

2. The AP hasn't been built yet. An Islamic AP would complicate matters greatly, and could require a major change in strategic planning.


And finally, why is Dar-K building a forge? It doesn't produce enough s to make the production boost worthwhile, and it's never going to reach a high enough pop to need the boost.

 

[Validator]

After getting cannons and rifles, get astronomy and invade pacal instead of saladin, capture his holy city and the capital if he has a third city (didnt load the save), and offer him peace for some juicy techs. After hes had his 10 turns, fnish him off.

Pacal is Mehmed's vassal, so it would also mean declaring war on Mehmed.