ALC Game #24: Hammurabi/Babylon

Assuming that Sis is going to be at war with Sal a major decision is going to be where Sis´stack faces Sal´s stack. Its better to wait for Sal to invade and trash the stack(including cuirassiers) with a bunch of cannon then polish them off with whatever units are available. Fighting Sal´s main stack in Arabia is really not such a good idea because the discrepancy in movement means that Sal gets to attack Sis before Sis gets to attack Sal. The first salvo determines the battle which determines the war.
While waiting for steel it may be an idea to build some garrison muskets een if they can´t be upgraded before rifling.
 
@rolo, retreat also can cause damage as SnowlyWhite pointed out to me some time ago. This is what makes double flank units so dangerous, a double flank unit doesn't do more flanking damage than a non flank unit but it does it more often due to the enhanced retreat ability.

But i still agree with the rest of your plan. If we can attack first or destroy the stack flanking isn't an issue anymore.
 
Reasons for Grens vs Cannons

A. Grens are cheaper in the long run. Both cost 150 hammers to build. But every cannon requires several support units. Pikes to (hopefully) protect them from mounted units that have a 45% chance of beating the pike outright with a 15% chance to retreat, or mounted units with a 35% chance of winning out right and a 45% chance of retreating. Atleast one pike per cannon. Once the pikes have been damaged the weakened cannons become stack defenders and then the carnage begins. Then add in troops to actually attack the city. You need both in either case but CR2 9xp maces are quickly upgraded to C1CR3 grens. Not an option if you go the steel route. Then you need muskets to defend the newly captured city. Muskets are 120 hammers. You should count on needing atleast 3 per city. 360 hammers. Whereas 2 CG2 Grens are just a little over strength 18 each. Grens aren't intended to be city defenders, but they're the best thing Sis has. The point I am trying to make here is that the gren with a strength of 12 is a universally superior unit. Cannons have 12 strength as well, but are vulnerable to flanking damage. Grens are vulnerable to collateral from siege units, but the difference is that the siege units sis will be facing are outdated in relation to Grens. They do minimal damage. Curassiers are contemporary units of cannons and deal full flanking damage.
B. TIME. this is the most important factor. MS is 6 turns faster than steel. Which means 6 turns of production or slider dropping for upgrades. I have figured out Sal will have Curassiers in 13 turns. Couple turns to upgrade and build muskets then the DOW. Most likely just as Sis gets steel or maybe even before. But most definately before there is a chance to build many cannons or raise the loot to upgrade. That 6 turns of producing grens and upgrading them might raise the powergraph enough to make sal hesitate and build more units. Which buys time to research steel. And it means more time in Islam/Theo to get Justinian friendly to avoid a dogpile.
There is enough time to research ONE tech before the DoW. Rifling is not an option for this war. Sis needs,banking,PP, RP and rifling for rifles. Not going to happen. Grens offer the most versatile unit available with one tech. Strong enough to defend against the initial assault while sis researchs steel. And quick enough to actually have some available in numbers that make a difference.

On a side note. I noticed Sis promoted a musketman to C3. With the build up of mounted units, C2Formation might be the stronger route. Not the best long term promotion strategy but for the moemnt it's about surviving an attack.
 
I think this discussion of grens vs. cannons has gotten a little off target.

Presumably Sisiutil will be researching MilSci and Steel as the next two techs. The only question is order. But in either case he should be waiting for both to be complete before starting any offensive against Saladin. So grens will be available to defend the cannon stacks when the time comes for them to venture out to attack Saladin's cities.

There's obviously a chance that Saladin will attack before then, so the only issue in deciding which to research first is whether cannons or grens offer better defensive capabilities. Unfortunately I would say that this depends on the size of Saladin's SOD. Against a large attacking force the collateral of cannons is going to be better. But if the invasion force is relatively small then the better play would be to let Saladin's force suicide itself against a grenadier defended city (Akkad presumably). Since Sisiutil's comprehensive scouting of Arabia (;)) has not found any sizable SOD I would think that MilSci should be next.


My view is that some of you are probably overestimating Saladin's military might.

His empire isn't that much bigger. He hasn't a tech lead. This leads me to the conclusion Sisiutil will probably clobber him, much like he clobbered Montezuma.

The sooner Saladin declares, the sooner Sis can cruise to victory! :)

I agree that Sisiutil is almost certain to win a war against Saladin (as long as he doesn't get dogpiled :mischief:).

The thing that concerns me is how long it's going to take and how far of a tech hole he will find himself in when it's done. I don't think it's at all a guarantee that once the war is won the game is won.

Part of the problem is that Sisiutil's wars tend to take a very long time. The war with Monty in the last game took around 125 turns. If that happens here we're talking about the war not ending until the 1800s. That doesn't leave a lot of time to recover before there will be a threat from one of the other AIs winning via space or culture.

In the previous game Sisiutil used an amazing amount of tech trading and brokering to catch up after the war with Monty. That isn't likely to be possible here with no friends and some of the AIs already at their WFYABTA limits. Also the land that Sisiutil added to his American empire as a result of the war with Monty was much better quality land than Saladin's lands in this game. So I wouldn't be expecting any sort of economic boom after the war ends.

I think the outcome of this game is very much in doubt at this point.

Which is a good thing, right? :D
 
If Sal Dows we have the field advantage..... and that negates much of the flanking prob ( they only make damage in attack , not in defense :p ). The gren route is more a of a way if we are going to move inside the sal land to deal with their cuiraseers.....
 
CivCorpse...very good arguments on Grens vs. Cannons. You saved me a lot of trouble (although I'm probably not as pro-Gren as you are)!

One thing we should also remember is that after unlocking Grenadiers, Pikemen are still available. This means that production of anti-mounted units can be split between Grenadiers and Pikemen. After the Pikemen gain some levels, they can then be upgraded to Grens.

For example, if you go 50% Grens/50% Pikemen (hammer-wise), your total troop numbers will be significantly higher than 100% Grens. This is one way to achieve both quality and quantity at the same time.
 
@civcorpse, On defence within our own borders cannons are really much better than grens as i but also fjordan and pigswill pointed out. They annilihate a stack if it comes within our borders,just need a few mop up units. It gets closer if we're doing the invading ourselves but grens/trebs is probably also a suspect as it seems probable that trebs die faster than cannons also due to flanking.

Time is a bit of an issue indeed and MS is a bit cheaper. But without good siege it'll be difficult to destroy Sal's stack anyway, our cities are not in immediate danger as cg3 muskets or downright pikes'll defeat attacking cuirassiers. Note btw that there's not much siege visible in Sal's cities.
 
Remember that the flanking ability is just a chance of making damage to certain siege units if the unit with flanking ability attacks and wins the fight....

My plan would simply move to cannons and take that city that sal has near the border and letting Sal to retake it.... cheesy but effective: Sal mounted don't get defensive bonuses and if we attack there is no fear of flanking ability ;)

If the attacking unit retreats or wins the fight then flanking damage occurs. It doesn't have to win the fight, just survive. Then flanking damage occurs not a chance of flanking. Though the attacker must survive (through retreat or outright victory) unlike siege which does damage regardless. The problem with the research steel and then attack Sal when he crosses into Babylonian territory plan is whether sal will cooperate by delaying his attack for over 21 turns. He is 13 turns from Curassiers. Giving a few turns for for him to raise the gold to upgrade (at a greatly reduced Immortal AI cost) The Dow might very well come before sis can even build a single cannon or raise gold to upgrade trebs. Even with the GA I reccomended. With Grens He can turtle up in the most likely target of Akkad while Sal bombards defenses. Toss a few disposocats at the stack and then attack with grens. C2/Formation grens are considerably stronger than any unit sal currently has. Even without the modest(ok minimal) damage cats will do to the SoD the grens will take out a lot of the best units. And with a medic1 unit in a friendly city, they will quickly heal for perhaps a 2nd assault. Both strategies rely on attacking the SoD in Baylonian lands but the Gren plan offers more time to prepare units. There is a chance that Sal could possibly take Akkad before Sis even has Steel researched.
 
CivCorpse...very good arguments on Grens vs. Cannons. You saved me a lot of trouble (although I'm probably not as pro-Gren as you are)!

One thing we should also remember is that after unlocking Grenadiers, Pikemen are still available. This means that production of anti-mounted units can be split between Grenadiers and Pikemen. After the Pikemen gain some levels, they can then be upgraded to Grens.

For example, if you go 50% Grens/50% Pikemen (hammer-wise), your total troop numbers will be significantly higher than 100% Grens. This is one way to achieve both quality and quantity at the same time.

I would much rather spend the hammers on units that have no counter and are better suited to the task of anti-mounted. Your troop numbers will start higher with 50/50 production but won't stay there as you lose pikes every other battle vs the higher survival rate of grens. Also it costs gold to upgrade units. Why not just build the better unit the first time.
 
@validator, looking at the save i'm very optimistic about the outcome. The only problem might be an early Sal attack which'll not destroy Sisiutil but is sure to set him back. Sal's far from rifling or steel atm, if the position can be consolidated and steel/grens are researched in whatever order it should be possible to takeall of arabia in ~ 20 turns, on top pof that it's epic speed.

As i said i'd research steel first, then i'd look at the tech screen and how far i am with the unit buildup, if Sal's slow or i'm not ready i might research grens too, otherwise i'd declare and wait a bit for Sal's Sod to show up.
 
@civcorpse, On defence within our own borders cannons are really much better than grens as i but also fjordan and pigswill pointed out. They annilihate a stack if it comes within our borders,just need a few mop up units. It gets closer if we're doing the invading ourselves but grens/trebs is probably also a suspect as it seems probable that trebs die faster than cannons also due to flanking.

Time is a bit of an issue indeed and MS is a bit cheaper. But without good siege it'll be difficult to destroy Sal's stack anyway, our cities are not in immediate danger as cg3 muskets or downright pikes'll defeat attacking cuirassiers. Note btw that there's not much siege visible in Sal's cities.

A. you're still assuming you have finished researching steel before the DoW.
B. Grens have a higher strength than anything sal has even if Sis doesn't attack with siege. A couple cats down the SoD throat and grens can do the mopping up.
 
I know you're kidding, but two Forges and two Grocers are already ready to whip, the Market and Grocer are for the city that already has the National Epic, and the Gardens are a UB and a quest. All worth it. The only suggestions of mine that I think could be skipped are the Lighthouses in Nippur and Sippar, leaving them for now as production cities working only land tiles.
Well, two things.

First, I saw your shopping list and only thought "whoa, that's a lot of builds before the first military unit will be built".

Second, your approach is obviously right assuming the war is still some ways off (or that Saladin actually is targeting someone else).

However, I assumed the worst: that an Arabian strike is due immediately, without warning.

In this light, no I'm not kidding. You can only afford to build those non-military builds that actually help you get out the most units the fastest in this scenario.

You can't be caught building Coliseums and Marketplaces when you needed defensive units just to withstand the first waves of the onslaught.

I'm not saying I am right. But I am suggesting there could be a better balance between military prudence and long-term economical optimization! :lol:
 
A. you're still assuming you have finished researching steel before the DoW.
B. Grens have a higher strength than anything sal has even if Sis doesn't attack with siege. A couple cats down the SoD throat and grens can do the mopping up.
A, True, it's only 6 turns though (would be 4 on normal).
Sal needs 6 turns for mil trad now, there's no certainty he'll go gunpowder next.
He needs to upgrade and that'll take some time in bts. I think we should be ready by then.Prudent would maybe building some cats/pikes/muskets in the meantime Sal could declare earlier and Ca's can be nasty as well if not prepared.

B cuirassiers are a bit stronger than grens unless these have formation.

There's a third possibility btw, research some turns into nationalism, and trade chemistry to Han (maybe after selling gp for gold). Drafting would really help. I'd sell off some techs to get the slider to 100% for the next turns whatever i do otherwise btw. Atm there's 800 gold to be scored from harmless deals with Darius,Ragnar and Justin.
 
A, True, it's only 6 turns though (would be 4 on normal).
Sal needs 6 turns for mil trad now, there's no certainty he'll go gunpowder next.
He needs to upgrade and that'll take some time in bts. I think we should be ready by then.Prudent would maybe building some cats/pikes/muskets in the meantime Sal could declare earlier and Ca's can be nasty as well if not prepared.

B cuirassiers are a bit stronger than grens unless these have formation.

There's a third possibility btw, research some turns into nationalism, and trade chemistry to Han (maybe after selling gp for gold). Drafting would really help. I'd sell off some techs to get the slider to 100% for the next turns whatever i do otherwise btw. Atm there's 800 gold to be scored from harmless deals with Darius,Ragnar and Justin.

A. Sal needs 7 turns for MT not 6. And his tech path has been music/nationalism/guilds/MT...he is going for curassiers. At the speed he researched MT that means 5-6 turns for gunpowder depending on how many beakers overflowed from MT

B. Both are strength 12 generic. Sis is agg so he gets free C1 so unpromoted he has a 13.2 vs 12 advantage over Sal. Sal has been promoting his ellies c2 and Ca's flanking 2. Formation grens will destroy anything sal has. With or without siege.

Do not trade away chemistry. It is sis's only advantage in the war. Hannibal will trade it to sal then sal gets cannons also.
 
A it's indeed likely.
B missed aggressive, that helps together with the flanking proms Sal has given his units.

I don't know about not trading chemistry away sometimes you have to be very opportunistic imo,

1. I don't think Sal can pay up, he's got nothing on Han and isn't likely to get something.
2. ais usually get chemistry rather early anyway but they tend to wait long before they go steel more likely Sal'll go ms from there but this is never sure of course.

In the meantime nationalism helps, GT won't be built anytime soon which distracts a bit, the happiness situation is such though that 12-18 (if we stretch it a bit) muskets can be drafted in 6 turns, noway Sal's going to have a chance against that. Only disadvantage, steel (or grens :p)'ll take a bit longer.
 
I would much rather spend the hammers on units that have no counter and are better suited to the task of anti-mounted. Your troop numbers will start higher with 50/50 production but won't stay there as you lose pikes every other battle vs the higher survival rate of grens. Also it costs gold to upgrade units. Why not just build the better unit the first time.

In this situation, Pikemen have a much higher degree of specialization than Grenadiers (Arabian Riflemen are pretty far away) vs. mounted units. Therefore, when facing mounted units, there's a lot of potential to leverage their cheaper cost.

Consider this situation: Saladin has a stack of Protective Musketmen along with some Cuirassiers. With Sisitutil on the attack, the first few Gren attacks can take out the Musketmen, while the Pikemen deal with the Cuirassiers. It's a huge gain.
 
Round 9: 990 AD to 1310 AD (38 turns)

Is it possible for a computer program, or component portions thereof, to be a wimp?

If so, then Saladin is a total wuss. Seriously, I'm calling him out. He's a skirt-huggin' momma's boy of the first order. A paper tiger with as much backbone as your average gelatinous invertebrate.

But I should stop there before I mix any other metaphors. I hear they can be like cleaning fluids if you're not careful.

I kept researching Steel while continuing to build up defensive forces, mainly Pikemen and Musketmen. These gathered in Akkad, mostly, since Saladin was concentrating his forces across the border in Kufah.

Along the way, the AP was built, I assume by Mehmed. Or maybe by Pacal? I'm honestly not sure.

ALC24_1310AD_01.jpg


Surprisingly, Pacal wound up winning.

ALC24_1310AD_02.jpg


That little guy's doing remarkably well considering how little land he has. I don't care if he's Financial, I can't figure out how he's researching so well with so little territory.

Oh well, he's turning out to be one heckuva tech trading partner, at any rate.

ALC24_1310AD_03.jpg


I mean look, he's at the bottom of the Civ size rankings. How is he doing it?

ALC24_1310AD_04.jpg



Hmmm. Well, like I said, as long as he wants to keep trading techs, I don't have a big problem with it. But it's kind of like the damn Caramilk bar, you know?

ALC24_1310AD_05.jpg


In the meantime, Saladin was building up a large force of Camel Archers and War Elephants in Kufah.

ALC24_1310AD_06.jpg


And as you can see, Saladin did indeed research Gunpowder next, right after Military Tradition, anticipating upgrading his Camel Archers to Cuirassiers. I still was focused on building up my own military response, producing more Muskets and Pikemen and giving them Combat II and Formation promotions in anticipation of the Arabian onslaught.

I had a response of my own being prepared:

ALC24_1310AD_07.jpg


With Steel in the bag, I shifted production from Pikes and Muskets to Cannon. In the meantime, Saladin had researched Gunpowder and promptly upgraded, as we all anticipated, his CAs to Cuirassiers.

ALC24_1310AD_08.jpg


With this accomplished, Saladin promptly marshaled his forces, mustered his army, girded his loins... and did absolutely nothing. Not just a little bit of nothing, but the type of pointed, deliberate, and focused inaction of which legends are not made. The ground did not shake beneath the pounding hooves of his war horses, no great dust cloud arose to mark their fearsome passing, and the peasantry did not cower in their hovels in abject fear of the mighty army's wrath. The countryside was not ravaged, virgins not deflowered, the wail of widowed wives and bereft mothers did not fill the air. Yes, it appears that Saladin saw that his moment had arrived, so he ferociously seized it by the throat, then apparently let it go with a muttered apology and, I'm guessing, some sort of parting gift.

While the Arabians continued to shock and awe the globe with their skillful display of complete inactivity, I kept on trading techs and keeping up with the Joneses--or the Pacals, as it were.

ALC24_1310AD_09.jpg


My next Great Person was a Great Engineer. I was at a bit of a loss about how to use him, but then I noticed that he'd lightbulb a goodly portion of Replaceable Parts for me.

ALC24_1310AD_10.jpg


Riflemen would do better against Cuirassiers than Grenadiers, even if the techs take a little longer. With the Arabians continuing to deftly do diddly squat, I figured I had time.

ALC24_1310AD_11.jpg


I also had an eye on getting Cavalry before too long, hence this trade:

ALC24_1310AD_12.jpg


And having Jails and running Representation might not be bad goals for the near future, so I made this trade after Hannibal briefly went into "We Fear You Are Becoming Too Advanced Mode" for a while and then sauntered out of it:

ALC24_1310AD_13.jpg


The war between Justinian and Ragnar finally ended:

ALC24_1310AD_14.jpg


So I suppose if the Arabs ever do something, I now have a slightly higher risk of being dog-piled. This is assuming that Justinian and Ragnar haven't become Saladin's understudies in passivity.

And at the end of the round, while the Arab forces continued to mill about indifferently, I finished researching a tech which will, together with Cannons, ensure that all those Arabian mounted units are fit only for dog food and glue factories.

ALC24_1310AD_15.jpg


I selected Military Science next; I figure I should be able to trade for Military Tradition before too long, as you'll see.

Now for a look at the advisors, starting with the domestic one:

ALC24_1310AD_16.jpg


I figured I should build a couple more Macemen before Grens come along and make me do without City Raider promotions until Tanks appear.

Foreign Advisor, Glance:

ALC24_1310AD_17.jpg


Yes, Pacal is now up to Friendly, which is good, since he's the tech leader (which I still can't figure out, the little beggar has maybe 2 or 3 cities!).

You think if I work at ticking off Saladin, he might do something? I haven't upgraded any units to Rifles--I figured I'd save up some more gold and do it in the event of a DoW.

Techs:

ALC24_1310AD_18.jpg


As I recall, Replaceable Parts costs the same as Military Tradition, so I could switch to researching it for a few turns and then Pacal will probably trade it to me. Or one of the others might loosen up.

Power:

ALC24_1310AD_19.jpg


Saladin is still the most powerful civ by a large amount, but he's very proud of his ability to do nothing and might just be planning on continuing that fine, centuries-old tradition.

Demographics:

ALC24_1310AD_20.jpg


So, at this point I'm thinking of trying to deliberately provoke Saladin. You know, leave several units without upgrades, maybe build up my queues a bit so I look weaker than I am, then go demanding tribute, closing out borders and what not, and see if he'll declare war. I was thinking of giving him about 6 turns or so before giving up and declaring war myself. I was also thinking of running the slider at 0% for a couple of turns to save up some gold to upgrade a few more units to Riflemen. Or should I just not bother beating around the bush and declare war now?

Either way, I think rather than letting Saladin sit on his butt, I should just get off mine and hand his to him.

Er... did that make any sense at all?
 

Attachments

I'd wait a little bit. Keep your power rating lower by holding nearly completed units in the build queue. It is obvious he is targeting you for a war, the question is only when.
 
Sisutil said:
With this accomplished, Saladin promptly marshaled his forces, mustered his army, girded his loins... and did absolutely nothing. Not just a little bit of nothing, but the type of pointed, deliberate, and focused inaction of which legends are not made. The ground did not shake beneath the pounding hooves of his war horses, no great dust cloud arose to mark their fearsome passing, and the peasantry did not cower in their hovels in abject fear of the mighty army's wrath. The countryside was not ravaged, virgins not deflowered, the wail of widowed wives and bereft mothers did not fill the air. Yes, it appears that Saladin saw that his moment had arrived, so he ferociously seized it by the throat, then apparently let it go with a muttered apology and, I'm guessing, some sort of parting gift.
.

This wins so hard.

Anyway, I'd say take down Saladin as soon as you get a sizable SoD of Rifles. Time to respond to his incredibly threatening indifference with the only thing that makes sense: invasion.
 
Gee, it makes you wonder if Sally is just snickering at you. :mischief:

But somehow, things worked out and now you've got the definite counter to Curaissers. I'd be careful about trading Replaceable Parts, though... you don't want Sally coming at you with Cavalry, which might not be able to handle Rifles, but can be a bit more problematic when it comes to softening up units for others to finish off.

Selling Steel to Mehmed might not be a bad idea... some of that gold would be better in your hands and then you can use it to upgrade your units, rather than him using it for his units.

As for war, once you get units upgraded, you may have to employ a differents strategy in declaring war on Sally... take a stack of Rifles and put it outside of Kufah on that unchopped forest, while leaving a stack of Cannons and more Rifles inside Akkad. If Sally attacks the Rifles, most of his units will be gone. If he tries to take Akkad, he'll run out of moves and then your Cannons can decimate his stack and then the Rifles there can either hold them off or clean them up.

Once the stack is gone, then you can join your remaining Cannons with the Rifles there and go about taking the city.

I'd probably stick with researching Military Sci... you might be able to work a deal for MT later, perhaps with Pacal if you are lucky.
 
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