ALC Game #4: Egypt/Hatshepsut

[cabert]

hi guys
great thread, and pretty good idea, the ALC
Hatcheptsuh being one of my favourite, i will just give you a few thoughts.

In my opinion, cultural is the way to go.
don't forget spiritual get cheap temples.

And don't waste too much on missionaries now, but you have to build some monasteries as long as it's possible (they go well with great library) for every religion you can.
If you're thinking of cottage spammed culturing, you'll lose the early buildings doubling culture for new cities, and developping to size 20+is slow.
so you'll need every religions including those foreign faiths. That's why newly built cities after astronomy where you don't send any missionary can be useful (coastal ones !).
And of course, open borders with those heathens if you can (you may need to go with free religion very soon). You can close them right after you get their religion anywhere in your territory.

and don't forget to build caravels

once more, great thread

 

[Araqiel]

You can get a culture win I suppose. But honestly its a bit late if you haven't been making the effort to build cultural improvements in three cities. A cultural win doesn't use the supreme land advantage that taking over most of your continent has granted you.

Still said advantage should make all victories possible for you.

 

[vormuir]

Oh, you can totally take a cultural win. Too easy. Big continent to play with, three religions... what more do you need?

The only quibble here is, cultural wins are boring. They really are. Other hand, you haven't done one yet, so might as well get it out of the way.

Random question: are you anywhere close to Guilds? Because if you are, then beeline Guilds -> Banking, then switch to Mercantilism. You're not exactly going to miss the foreign trade routes, right? And it's a free specialist in every city, which is pretty damn sweet.


Waldo

 

[Araqiel]

The thing about a cultural win is that you don't need a big continent. Just using Julius's land and his own would have been more than enough. Cultural wins just need a moderate amount of science, enough religions, and three good spots.

If you've gone to the trouble to dominate your continent so much then you should try for something else. Additionally the extra culture from ancient sources is already lost since he spent most of his early years building his WC horde.

 

[vormuir]

Just took a quick look at your game.

Dude. You're in perfectly good shape. You're going to win this thing. Just a few comments.

1) Madrid is your production city. Finish that catapult and then build something useful. I'd build a Forge, myself, and then crank out Buddhist missionaries everywhere.

2) Your religious situation is a mess. 1200 AD, you're Spiritual... and your state religion is in only four cities?

Get those missionaries out there. Given that Madrid is head and shoulders above all rivals in production, and that Buddhism is not far behind Hinduism (2 cities to 4) I would say crank B-missionaries and then switch once 5+ cities have been converted. Alternate strategy: have someone (Thebes?) build a Hindu missionary and convert Madrid while Madrid is building that Forge. Hm, that might be better. But either way, get those religions up.

3) Nice stack. Now use it. Don't wait for a pile of cats... two or three are plenty. If you lose a sword or two, so what? You'll never be able to promote them all anyhow, right?

4) You have a lot of good options on the tech tree. If it were me, I'd probably go after Theology next, to try snagging Christianity. If it's already been founded, oh well, drop it then. But if you can get it... well, four religions -> four cathedrals in your three culture cities -> triple culture output. Makes reaching that 50,000 mark that much easier, believe me.

Feudalism is a crap tech for you right now, but it unlocks Guilds (good) and Banking (very very good). So, even though it's useless in itself, it's very much worth having. I'd even say let Vicky have ten turns break, if she would give it to you.

5) While you have this war won already, nobody likes to lose units /pointlessly/. So, be careful with those catapults wandering across open ground north of Canterbury... horse archers can ruin their day.

6) Start thinking hard about where to put Forbidden Palace. You could build it in Madrid in just 10 turns, or 8 with Forge. That may not be the ideal location, of course, but FYI.


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Araqiel,

The extra land may not be /necessary/ for a culture win, but it's certainly very nice. The other cities can produce military units, money and technology to make the culture win much faster.

I had a culture win recently with ~18 cities. I was pleased to find that I didn't have to abandon technology; I finished the game roughly equal to the others in tech, and still able to knock the stuffing out of one annoying neighbor.

Sure, you can win with just 9 cities -- or even less -- but it's a lot more fraught. More cities makes it faster and easier.


Waldo

 

[vormuir]

Sis, you're Creative. Half-price Theaters. I wouldn't make Drama your very next tech -- too many other attractive targets -- but when you get around to it, get those Theaters up and running, especially in your culture cities. Won't take long.

You miss Financial? No no. What you're missing is Organized. This is exactly the situation where it really shines.

Mansa Musa: aw, c'mon. He's the easiest of all the leaders! I don't even play with him anymore, because of that!

Final thought: remember, the label says "All Leaders CHALLENGE". You are being challenged. You wanted to be outside your comfort zone, right? And it's certainly darn interesting to watch.

cheers,


Waldo

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Well for the Cultural Win... I'd Get CS+Machinery, to finish off Vicky (you may just be able to Upgrade your Swords)...In the meantime just pump more Elephants+Cats+Swords+Suicide War Chariots*

*These are better than Suicide Cats If there is less than three units in the City, 40% chance to survive...and they get to the front quicker.

Then, Since Christianity is Gone, go for Philosophy The GL is your only wonder right?.. so in 13 turns you have a GS.. that Should pop Philosophy (check to make sure no Other Specialists are interfering with this)

So Research
CS (Bureaucracy and help irrigating as well)
Machinery
Drama
Theology (to build Sistine)
Divine Right (For Islam Or Versailles)
Liberalism (For Free Speech, Religion and Tech...possibly Nationalism for Taj and Hermitage)
Gunpowder (For defense, you haven't done Feudalism in this route)

[Research Philosophy as soon as you get a GS IF it doesn't give Philosophy and Taoism has not been founded]


About this time comes the Choices for National Wonders, if you go Cultural, then Barcelona looks like the good GP Factory so for Great Artists it goes

NE+Globe in Barcelona

HE+WP in some city that will Not be one of your three

(Oxford Could go in one of those three ..like Vandal, since it Will have a High Commerce Rate... the Academy and Great Scientist s could then go there for both Culture..if you get Sistine... And Science)

Hermitage in the Worst of your 3 target Cities

Wonders, Best if you can put them in Target Cities... but Commerce is likely to be more effective, so the Jungle is probably the best for your cultural Cities. (although Barcelona Could be one if you Get Sistine... because then its 6 Culture per Artist... and you have the Globe)

So... Once they're All Gone, your other cities take up the role of supporting those Culture Cities...
Build Workers to focus on them (build some farms to get them up fast and to allow whipping, then Cottages)

Spread religions as much as possible

Get Shrines (with Prophets from Priests from Temples in Barcelona) that will prevent you from having to have Taxes when you run 100% Culture

Get Universal Suffrage to allow your Other Cities to help the Culture Cities Build through Gold Rushing. (and to give some production to those Culture Cities, that they could use to Build Culture)


Vandal looks like a good Candidate for any Wonders as it looks like it can maintain good Production, and Commerce (so it will be one of the three benefitting from the Wonders Culture... but Wonder Culture is not That Much so otherwise just put it somewhere.)


As for Forbidden Palace, I'd plan on having Versailles, so plan out three 'Decent' production 'Capital Sites' Put FP and the Capital in the ones without the Highest production. (If you don't get Versailles, then you can change the Palace position)


As for what cities should be producing... Units, Settler, or Workers, maybe Granaries or Courthouses [exception]. Settlers are probably the best way to fight barbs (by starving them of space) and Workers wil get everything else going... particularly those Jungle spots

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

3) Nice stack. Now use it. Don't wait for a pile of cats... two or three are plenty. If you lose a sword or two, so what? You'll never be able to promote them all anyhow, right?

This is something I've only come to grips with recently. I used to sweat every war casualty, trying to win every battle with overwhelming odds so I could avoid losses. I'd make sure every unit healed fully before it fought again, etc.

Recently I've realized that there are many situations where war losses can actually help you. Losing obsolete or nearly obsolete troops reduces your unit upkeep and gives you a nice opportunity to build newer units.

Of course, it's always nice to have that superman with City Raider III and Combat III (I had 3 Jaguars like that in a recent game. They were taking down longbows with ease ), but if you lose a few level 1 swordsmen, cest la vie (or should I say cest la mort?).

The extra land may not be /necessary/ for a culture win, but it's certainly very nice. The other cities can produce military units, money and technology to make the culture win much faster.

And, since power is partially based on population and land area, you'll be discouraging the AI's from attacking you simply because you have those cities, even without building more military.

 

[Eggolas]

Vormuir is correct. Victoria is toast. You should win in about 4 or five turns at most. The stack you have can be split to take out the two cities closest to London.

Send all war chariots to the west. Send the stack, minus the spears and the axeman to the south. These Londoners will handle the counterattack against London that you know will have to come. Victoria is fighting for her civ and she will weaken existing cities to try to take back London. Silly woman. Those spears will make mincemeat of her attacking force, such as it will be (usually horse archers).

I prefer to attack with the lowest ranked units at first, preferring to lose them in weakening the opponent. If you follow that approach, you will probably lose 3 or 4 WCs and 3 or 4 Swords (after using the two cats to take down the cultural defense in Hastings). Of course, after this war, you don't want your WCs anyway. The War Elephants can take out whatever is in open terrain or head towards Canterbury to assist in its demise. Horse archers won't stand up to them.

I really believe that you need to stop building military units completely. When I looked back on why my shadow game was able to run a much higher research rate, it came down to building far less units. Losing 6 to 8 so-so units that will soon be obsolete can't hurt the old research rate either. You have an ocean . . . use it for awhile to build peacefully and settle the coasts.

Even if you disband a horde of WCs, you're still going to have the 2nd or 3rd most soldiers.

You can starve London by using four merchants. Also, cottages are useless unless you actually work them. Change some of your tiles, especially where stuff is being built soon anyway. Build more cottages near the river in Vandal.

Canterbury is toast. A combines arms catapults-WC-Spear will take out the two horse archers, and you have enough coming from the west to support it. Bring the spear and WC from the city north of it. The Horseys probably won't come out of the last city. I doubt that the HAs will survive a catapult attack. You'll have three there for the attack and they will do collateral damage along with weakening or destroying the HAs. Classic mismatch. Move a couple of WCs over there just for kicks.

In the end, you will have a beautiful London with no misplaced cities around it.

Civil Service is coming faster than you have scheduled if you want to make the effort. Run a -30/turn or so deficit for awhile (about 70% that can be taken down to 60% if need be), you're about to take in some serious war booty from three cities that you raze.

I figure 6 turns from your save for CS after you use specialists, change the tiles and raise the research rate to 60-70%.

Once the continent is done, repatriate your remaining Swords to take out the barbarian cities, settle where you want and lose a bunch of WCs. I like the Dye city and it will save you a settler, although one tile west and south might be better. Guilds are coming because you need banking. The WCs just aren't needed anymore. Keep a couple of really good ones you might want to make into knights, assuming you want to handle the cost.

Cultural or space race ... really not sure. You have a few production powerhouses and several commerce/science cities. I would thnk a space race victory is achievable, but I have never gone cultural.

One note: You could easily have used the artist in London to make it immediately profitable with merchants as soon as Hastings was eliminated. If you want cultural, then use the artist as a superspecialist in your second or third city. If you want space race, then London would have been a great work site. I'm sort of divided.

Finally, bureaucracy is nice, but do you want the capitol to be Thebes or Vandal? Where should the academy be built?

 

[Araqiel]

Araqiel,

The extra land may not be /necessary/ for a culture win, but it's certainly very nice. The other cities can produce military units, money and technology to make the culture win much faster.

I had a culture win recently with ~18 cities. I was pleased to find that I didn't have to abandon technology; I finished the game roughly equal to the others in tech, and still able to knock the stuffing out of one annoying neighbor.

Sure, you can win with just 9 cities -- or even less -- but it's a lot more fraught. More cities makes it faster and easier.


Waldo

Unfortunately its already 1200 AD no? If I'm targetting a culture win I usually end up shooting for it a lot earlier. It just seems to me that a big part of a game is setting your goals appropriate to a victory condition. Or alternatively you take advantage of opportunities the world generator has given you towards one of the victory conditions.

Sisuitil was convinced to warmonger a bit with Egypt's UU. Turning all that effort into a cultural victory seems silly. Especially since it'd be a pretty slow cultural victory at that.

And no more cities doesn't really make a cultural victory faster. Research stops so early for a culture win that a big empire doesn't really help too much as early largesse doesn't translate into a tech run away till a little later. Thus once you've turned the cultural slider on all the way everything depends just your three cities. The rest just serve to provide the temple prerequisites for your cathedrals and pump out military units to dissuade aggressors.

More cities makes a cultural win easier, but more cities make ANY win easier. Size is a much bigger factor in all of the other victory types.

You say you left science on while going for a cultural victory, of course you can do that. But you can do it much faster other ways.

 

[Araqiel]

Recently I've realized that there are many situations where war losses can actually help you. Losing obsolete or nearly obsolete troops reduces your unit upkeep and gives you a nice opportunity to build newer units.

And, since power is partially based on population and land area, you'll be discouraging the AI's from attacking you simply because you have those cities, even without building more military.

I agree absolutely about obsolete units. I've found it very useful to just disband my leftover non-experienced axemen, warriors, horse archers, etc.

The power ranking isn't nearly as big a deal since he'll have no land rivals. The AI will never succeed an oceanic invasion. (well maybe if its marines versus longbows but even then I bet I could catapult his stacks to death)

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Unfortunately its already 1200 AD no? If I'm targetting a culture win I usually end up shooting for it a lot earlier. It just seems to me that a big part of a game is setting your goals appropriate to a victory condition. Or alternatively you take advantage of opportunities the world generator has given you towards one of the victory conditions.

I'd still lean that direction. The other victory types look pretty easy (possible exception of Diplo - how many religions do the other civs have?), so why not go for the curious one.

The level is only Prince, so I'm inclined to guess that 1200AD isn't too late (after all, the main pieces are in place [religions, cities], it's just a matter of building things and growing).

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I think it's important to note that Sisiutil didn't suggest a cultural win because he thought it was going to be the easiest, most direct path to victory. The point was that he hasn't done one yet and has diverted to other conditions in the last 2 games. So all these comments that domination or space race would be easier might be right, but I'm not sure they're relevant. The question isn't whether cultural would be easiest but rather whether it would be possible and/or the most fun.

 

[Sisiutil]

I think it's important to note that Sisiutil didn't suggest a cultural win because he thought it was going to be the easiest, most direct path to victory. The point was that he hasn't done one yet and has diverted to other conditions in the last 2 games. So all these comments that domination or space race would be easier might be right, but I'm not sure they're relevant. The question isn't whether cultural would be easiest but rather whether it would be possible and/or the most fun.

That's precisely what I was thinking, along with leveraging the instructional nature of the ALC threads to illustrate--for better or worse--a cultural win.

Final thought: remember, the label says "All Leaders CHALLENGE". You are being challenged. You wanted to be outside your comfort zone, right? And it's certainly darn interesting to watch.

It's great to see so much discussion being generated by this latest game. And you're exactly right, this is definitely the most challenging of the ALCs yet. Given the raging debate around it, it might just be the most fun.

The only quibble here is, cultural wins are boring. They really are. Other hand, you haven't done one yet, so might as well get it out of the way.

I don't find cultural wins boring, I find them incredibly tense. First I'm worried that because I'm very low in the power rankings that I'll be attacked; then towards the end I'm worried that an AI will beat me by building the spaceship, and I don't have the military force to do anything about it. Spies really shine in that situation, but they run the risk, if caught, of souring relations and inviting a war. That happened to me once; I began to superscede Qin in the space race, and voiced his objection with stacks of Mechanized Infantry.

What's with all the roads? I'd be improving farms at Vandal, so that city can get up to the happy limit.

Heh. Leftover Civ II habit, I suspect; I'm still trying to break myself of it. Though I am also trying to provide slower-moving reinforcements with a faster (and safer) way to the front. Those 2-move WCs spoiled me.

2) Your religious situation is a mess. 1200 AD, you're Spiritual... and your state religion is in only four cities?

Get those missionaries out there. Given that Madrid is head and shoulders above all rivals in production, and that Buddhism is not far behind Hinduism (2 cities to 4) I would say crank B-missionaries and then switch once 5+ cities have been converted. Alternate strategy: have someone (Thebes?) build a Hindu missionary and convert Madrid while Madrid is building that Forge. Hm, that might be better. But either way, get those religions up.

I totally agree, but remember that I just captured London a few turns back. I'm thinking of sticking with Hinduism because I have its shrine now. With Vandal producing GS points, I may not easily get a GP, at least not for some time. Thebes is now Hindu, IIRC, and is a production powerhouse, so I could easily build the monastery and missionaries there.

Finally, bureaucracy is nice, but do you want the capitol to be Thebes or Vandal? Where should the academy be built?

Great minds think alike, and fools seldom differ, as my mom used to say. I was also thinking it might make sense, in anticipation of Bureaucracy, to switch the capital to Vandal, since Thebes is more production-oriented. What does everyone think of that? If I do that, and build Forbidden Palace in Madrid, where should Versailles go? It's a very expensive wonder and has to go in a city with strong production.

I won't comment on every other suggestion, but there are a lot of good ideas in there. Here's what I'm planning in the immediate future:

• Restart the war with Vicky, split the stack as suggested, finish her off.
• STOP building military units.
• Raze the barb cities, post the surviving veterans around the continent as fog-busters. The barbs are gettin' old.
• Madrid builds a forge next, then Forbidden Palace.
• Finish researching Civil Service, switch to Bureacracy.
• If Vicky is finished or nearly so, Macemen aren't needed. Put off researching Machinery in this case. I'm thinking of pursuing Theology to get a jump on building the Sistine Chapel.
• Barcelona builds National Epic, then Globe.
• First GS from GL in Vandal: Philosophy, if Taoism not founded. Second one: Academy in Vandal.

 

[Araqiel]

I think it's important to note that Sisiutil didn't suggest a cultural win because he thought it was going to be the easiest, most direct path to victory. The point was that he hasn't done one yet and has diverted to other conditions in the last 2 games. So all these comments that domination or space race would be easier might be right, but I'm not sure they're relevant. The question isn't whether cultural would be easiest but rather whether it would be possible and/or the most fun.

I dunno I'm still skeptical of spending the entirety of the begining game razing the AI out of your continent and then deciding to build pretty monuments and museums while chanting a lot in stone buildings .

 

[Araqiel]

That's precisely what I was thinking, along with leveraging the instructional nature of the ALC threads to illustrate--for better or worse--a cultural win.

I suppose thats the true heart of my dislike of going for a cultural win in this situation. The opening just doesn't lead into that condition.

Though would moving the capital to Vandal change where you plan on building the FP? I'd open the save to look myself but I'm on a civ deficient computer till tuesday.

 

[pigswill]

You're leaving it late to head for cultural and I agree with Araqiel that its more of a diversion than a natural progression. Before you make any major decisions it would be helpful to find out conditions on the other continent. If you go for cultural its very unlikely to be an early victory and if you've got a space racer across the water it could be a late defeat. I'm not saying don't start on the infrastructure i.e. finish off Vicky, start a few more cities and spread religions. I am saying don't commit yet.

I still think you should consider diplomatic; it follows more naturally and you haven't played that victory path either. In ALC#3 you were saying 'I've promised people a cultural victory' and the conditions weren't right which meant you defaulted to space race in the end.

Edit: Up to now you've found yourself starting on a largish continent with three other civs and you have sensibly started off by getting the continent to yourself, which has taken a hunk of time and resources. If you want to go for cultural (and you know you do) wait to start on a smaller continent with fewer neighbours so can can get the continent to yourself earlier.

 

[Nares]

Backdoor Diplomatic win doesn't seem any more exciting than pursuing a Cultural victory from this point. Because that's what you'd really be pursuing in this case. There may even be enough land for a Domination win without having to launch against the other continent (that might not be so bad; at least it would be short; this already is the longest ALC thread).

I'd vote for a city-razing Conquest win (assuming you don't have enough land for a Domination win; you could always make certain you don't by not founding a few select cities, but keep in mind you'll probably want to capture a handful on the other continent for rebasing air units).

In all honesty, the real strategy of this game was the early war. It was suggested to avoid building World Wonders (ultimately a bad suggestion). Sisiutil made the mistake of researching Alphabet instead of Code of Laws. With the continent almost subdued, the next major instructional points are about how to expand, how to place cities for late game goodness, and how to pull an economy out of the toilet.

Worrying about a victory condition is pointless. The only reason a Cultural condition is really being kicked around is because that particular condition needs to be pursued the earliest (namely now, if not earlier). I'd almost say recover, catch up in tech, and end the ALC short (well, don't actually, but understand that it's mostly semantics to argue for Space versus Diplomacy; neither is difficult if you can get through the next hundred turns or so).

Heck. How best to pursue the circumnavigation bonus from this point seems to hold more interest than pursing most victory conditions.

While I would, too, like to see Diplomatic and Cultural victory games, I think there needs to be a tad more work involved in setting them up. Diplomatic is really only interesting when you're actually relying on real diplomacy (this game would be backdoor Diplomatic victory: aka, I'm too lazy to found another three or four cities). Others already explain why pursuing Cultural from this point would make for a poor example of a Cultural victory strategy.

PS: This is probably the best ALC so far, from the standpoint of learning experiences, both in terms of actual gameplay and in terms of reporting as required by the current strategy (there should have been more reporting of the Roman conquest, as well as the Spanish conquest; this would have been a good time to kick around combat odds and other military theories). Granted, it sounds like over-expansion is a fairly common problem most players encounter when playing as Hatty, and this thread certainly discussed that.

 

[Araqiel]

Backdoor Diplomatic win doesn't seem any more exciting than pursuing a Cultural victory from this point. Because that's what you'd really be pursuing in this case. There may even be enough land for a Domination win without having to launch against the other continent (that might not be so bad; at least it would be short; this already is the longest ALC thread).

I'd vote for a city-razing Conquest win (assuming you don't have enough land for a Domination win; you could always make certain you don't by not founding a few select cities, but keep in mind you'll probably want to capture a handful on the other continent for rebasing air units).

Oceanic invasions are definitely a challenge. I've never had a conquest win on a continents map. Typically I'll get a domination by making one very good friend on the other and use his territory as a base for my invasion. Typically an aggressive/backwards loony like Tokugawa or Genghis is my choice. Easy to get them to pile on you target and they aren't too strong of competitors for taking cities before you can.

If thats the route of choice then getting the +1 naval movement bonus is incredibly helpful if you can manage it.