Dr Elmer Jiggle
King
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2003
- Messages
- 811
Very interesting victory. I never even realized it was realistically possible to get a cultural win this way, let alone watching it happen. Who's next? Louie Louie?
ALC Game #5: England/Victoria
- Thread starter Sisiutil
- Start date
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Neither did I. I've always relied on the slider before, and the conventional wisdom for cultural is that you have to devote yourself to it early. Well, I really only started working hard for it in 1800 and had it in 1945, and with only one GA. The two key items prior to 1800 were (1) building the Sistine Chapel, and even more important, (2) acquiring six religions. In the absence of GAs, all those cathedrals won the day, in combination with Caste System and multiple artist specialists.Dr Elmer Jiggle said:
Who's next? That's a very good question. One of the French leaders is definitely next, and based on what we decided after the two Chinese games, only one of them for now. So which one? Louis or Napoleon?
I think I'll start a thread, maybe with a poll, in order to decide.
uncarved block
Prince
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2006
- Messages
- 351
If I can chime in before you start a thread, I would point out that while both French leaders occasionally get a bad rap at CFC, Napoleon's traits are very similar to two previous leaders (Monty and Qin) for which you've already done an ALC. Creative, OTOH, is uncharted territory, and how to leverage that trait to early advantage could make for interesting discussion. Just my two cents, take them as you will.
Congratulations on the win, and thanks for showing that Cultural wins are possible on lower levels even with a late start. I don't know how much actual time it took going through all those turns, but have to say that after a while, going through the motions of both the Space Ship and Domination victories can be a pain in the neck. The next game in which I run out to a big lead in land might end up looking a lot like this ALC. This just felt so much . . smoother.
Gnarfflinger
Wiseguy in Training
Louie, being Industrious and Creative seems much different from anything we've covered before. I'm thinking wonder addiction and another cultural attempt.
Napolean would be the second Aggressive leader and second industrious. I'd say that Napolean would be another domination victory, rushing to Gunpowder once he had his worker techs and maybe Feudalism and Theology...
Napolean would be the second Aggressive leader and second industrious. I'd say that Napolean would be another domination victory, rushing to Gunpowder once he had his worker techs and maybe Feudalism and Theology...
Great game Sisiutil. Keep it coming. So much more to learn from you and all the expert players in these threads. I don't have much problems anymore with prince levels now and resort to early warmongering now too. Although I have to say that the romans are really overpowered when it comes to early warmongering.
But darn nice cultural victory. Turning out 825 culture per turn is incredible impressive. Never thought of using food and specialist to get this going. Thumbs up on the game.
But darn nice cultural victory. Turning out 825 culture per turn is incredible impressive. Never thought of using food and specialist to get this going. Thumbs up on the game.
Congrats on the win!
Must say there was no surprise in the win, but i enjoyed the way you did it, (although it was not what i suggested).
You played for fun, and it's fine. I pushed towards a more "commited" game, because of the learning stuff.
I think you give a bad example
to the youngsters here who will see you can win a game without focus on the victory condition.
A few thoughts are coming, but first my opinion on the next leader :
Napoleon is not well loved, but Louis is definitely hated. For the challenge, take Louis. Cultural? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Afterthoughts :
- you managed very well a late game cultural way, but you neglected some possibilities
1) 100% gold slider for a few turns)
2) not removing the cottages from London (not needing to press too hard on the culture to get to the goal) would have given you some more gold.
3) True the odds where high that you could get a GA in London. Bad luck? Not really. If you wanted loads of GA you should have gone for pacifism and 0 specialists in London while going for 10+ artists in coventry and hastings. Why? because +100% GPP from pacifism give only 50% more GPP in London, so you could have had more Great persons in coventry and hastings and much less in London.
I like to push one farm in front of the other by starving it for a few turns if i'm sure i'll get what i want there. Here you could have pushed coventry and hastings (not in the same time!) into starvation so that they pop a GA before London pops a prophet.
4) no hammers needed in the 3 big ones= no priest needed. Rush-buying!
Priests are welcome in guiness (ale must be appealing to those, don't you think?)
5) You could have rushed cathedral first, and used the overflow for the wonder (yes there is an overflow = all hammers you have in the city in one turn). This way, you could have built twice as much of the wonder in every turn you did build.
Turn 1 you start a cathedral
turn 2 you rush buy the cathedral
turn 3 you start a wonder + apply overflow.
Turn 4 you switch to another cathedral
turn 5 you buy the cathedral
turn 6 you build the wonder + apply overflow.
Just a general thought. Not very useful when you don't have any hammers going into the building. It's just a way to reduce the penalty for rushing wonders. More useful with pop rushing than with $-rushing.
What do you think of those unbuilt monasteries?
If you had built every monastery in London, you could have built missionaries there during the whole culture rushing time.
I'm sure coventry and hastings would have gained a lot from an early monastery too!
Must say there was no surprise in the win, but i enjoyed the way you did it, (although it was not what i suggested).
You played for fun, and it's fine. I pushed towards a more "commited" game, because of the learning stuff.
I think you give a bad example
to the youngsters here who will see you can win a game without focus on the victory condition.A few thoughts are coming, but first my opinion on the next leader :
Napoleon is not well loved, but Louis is definitely hated. For the challenge, take Louis. Cultural? I don't think so, but we'll see.
Afterthoughts :
- you managed very well a late game cultural way, but you neglected some possibilities
1) 100% gold slider for a few turns)
2) not removing the cottages from London (not needing to press too hard on the culture to get to the goal) would have given you some more gold.
3) True the odds where high that you could get a GA in London. Bad luck? Not really. If you wanted loads of GA you should have gone for pacifism and 0 specialists in London while going for 10+ artists in coventry and hastings. Why? because +100% GPP from pacifism give only 50% more GPP in London, so you could have had more Great persons in coventry and hastings and much less in London.
I like to push one farm in front of the other by starving it for a few turns if i'm sure i'll get what i want there. Here you could have pushed coventry and hastings (not in the same time!) into starvation so that they pop a GA before London pops a prophet.
4) no hammers needed in the 3 big ones= no priest needed. Rush-buying!
Priests are welcome in guiness (ale must be appealing to those, don't you think?)
5) You could have rushed cathedral first, and used the overflow for the wonder (yes there is an overflow = all hammers you have in the city in one turn). This way, you could have built twice as much of the wonder in every turn you did build.
Turn 1 you start a cathedral
turn 2 you rush buy the cathedral
turn 3 you start a wonder + apply overflow.
Turn 4 you switch to another cathedral
turn 5 you buy the cathedral
turn 6 you build the wonder + apply overflow.
Just a general thought. Not very useful when you don't have any hammers going into the building. It's just a way to reduce the penalty for rushing wonders. More useful with pop rushing than with $-rushing.
What do you think of those unbuilt monasteries?
If you had built every monastery in London, you could have built missionaries there during the whole culture rushing time.
I'm sure coventry and hastings would have gained a lot from an early monastery too!
Sisiutil
All Leader Challenger
Believe me, Cabert, I was kicking myself about the monasteries. In my current off-line game, I'm being positively religious--pun fully intended--about building them. In fact, as soon as an AI civ was kind enough to spread its religion to one of my cities, I rushed there and put a monastery in the queue.
Good points on GPP production, although with 7-8 Artist specialists and GA odds over 70%, you'd think I'd get a GA from London, but noooooooo...
I agree, I should have run Pacifism for awhile. And my experience with GP production in this game highlights the lesson I learned in the Mao game, which was to keep the GP production in each city "pure". It's the only way to guarantee a result. It can be tough, because it means you usually don't want your capital to be the science city; I usually build Stonehenge and the Oracle in the capital, which produce Great Prophets, while the Great Library, of course, produces Great Scientists.
This is one BIG advantage, I find, to an early war: you capture a capital, which are often in the best locations and can easily become science cities, GP farms, or even production centres.
Good points on GPP production, although with 7-8 Artist specialists and GA odds over 70%, you'd think I'd get a GA from London, but noooooooo...
I agree, I should have run Pacifism for awhile. And my experience with GP production in this game highlights the lesson I learned in the Mao game, which was to keep the GP production in each city "pure". It's the only way to guarantee a result. It can be tough, because it means you usually don't want your capital to be the science city; I usually build Stonehenge and the Oracle in the capital, which produce Great Prophets, while the Great Library, of course, produces Great Scientists.
This is one BIG advantage, I find, to an early war: you capture a capital, which are often in the best locations and can easily become science cities, GP farms, or even production centres.
about the GP usage,
i'm not sure i understood well what you did.
With sistin chapel a super priest gives you +2*bonus culture, so it's still useful in the 3 big ones.
Even better, if you can build a shrine in there.
Wasn't it possible to use Madrid as a 3rd big one (i didn't open any save, sorry) or another holy city?
Anyway, it was another really great thread
i'm not sure i understood well what you did.
With sistin chapel a super priest gives you +2*bonus culture, so it's still useful in the 3 big ones.
Even better, if you can build a shrine in there.
Wasn't it possible to use Madrid as a 3rd big one (i didn't open any save, sorry) or another holy city?
Anyway, it was another really great thread
