ALC Game #6: France/Louis

[Killroyan]

I agree on goldopolis first. And I agree with VoU on 2 E of the wheat. Coastal acces and 3 food resources is in my opinion better then a little more inland. You have copper so why the need for horses. About marble city, I know it isn't perfect dotmapping but why not 2N of the elephant. You will have marble, elephant, spice and bananas in your fat cross. Ok there are 3 peaks but it could be interesting.

About the diplomacy, nobody said anything about early warmongering not being allowed Kick some of those psycho's of the island and then make good friends with the others. As long as you are ahead of the wonder race.

And darn Nares, 1SE was definitely the best place to start. Now you maybe have to settle a city on the desert tile to the east of the capital just to get the copper. You will get then only 1 grassland (damn those desert hills and all plains) which you will need.

P.s. in the 5 minutes I typed this reply there were 2 more answers. This is one hell of a popular thread

 

[Hans Lemurson]

I see, to have missed a meeting - what was the point of collecting Hunting? No camps, no metals, Animal Loving was already available. Were you planning to build scouts after your worker finished?

I actually did some calculations and came to an interesting conclusion about Hunting. Because it is a pre-requisite for Animal Husbandry, it provides you a research-bonus when you go for AH. Since you already have Agriculture, Hunting increases your research-bonus from +20% to +40%, shortening it's research-time from 13 turns to about 11 turns. Hunting costs 57 Science, but once you have it, it gives you an extra 2 science/turn for 11 turns.

To summarize: The research-bonus you gain in AH from Hunting recoups about 40% of it's cost. Does that necessarily justify its research? Maybe, maybe not, but it does warrant a re-evaluation of its cost.

 

[voek]

Crappy Capital surroundings comparing to some earlier ALC games. But in the south there are some sweet spots. Goldcity first, i concur.

About the crappy copper. And this culture pase, copper comes in late, but why don't you start your wonder fetish rightaway Lets build Stonehenge. 1 chop and it will be ready before you know it. Seeing the good city locations down south i realy wouldn't want to lose expansion to the south to capture the lousy copper site.

Oh, I dont realy like those eliphants near Cuzco, better take him out before he gets construction.

 

[Sisiutil]

Killroyan and Hans, I think I DO need the horses, especially if I'm gonna wait for IW. I DON'T have the copper, or at least not for several turns, significantly longer than it would normally take to build a settler to snag it. The dilemma is if I build a lousy little city over there, I'll forgo one of the better sites to my south. And yes, when the copper appeared, I looked forlornly at that 1S/1SE grassland hill...

I have Animal Husbandry, so horses mean I can build Chariots for barb-whomping and early defense rather than diverting to Archery. I'm already diverting to Iron Working early on, and with copper oh-so-close but out of reach, that leaves me without any good defensive units for awhile. I'd be building Horsetown first, but I don't want Toku snagging Goldenpig from me.

However, I don't think barbs are going to be as much of a problem on this map, which is one of its few benefits. Usually I'd expect a big expanse of barb-spawning tundra to my north, but I get the feeling that peninsula doesn't extend very far. Creative civs tend to reduce the amount of barb activity overall, thanks to those quick, early border pops.

(And VoU, Hunting was Nares' suggestion, purely for the Scout. Normally I wouldn't have gone that route, but this is the 6th ALC and I'm feeling like experimenting a little.)

I agree that the marble-ivory city may be a tad ambitious, but we'll see. First comes Goldenpig, then Horsetown. Goldenpig may help financially with delaying Pottery until after Iron Working. After that, I'll have to see if Marbletusk and Fishyriceville are still available. If Huayuna grabs that territory, it may indicate that he's my first target.

Killroyan, I like your suggestion for Marbletusk--I've lived with peaks in the fat cross before and will likely do so again. With all that grassland, I can tolerate them.

For research, I'm thinking of switching from Pottery to IW. Then it's over to the Mysticism -> Meditation -> Priesthood route for the Oracle. Then Pottery. Normally I wouldn't delay Pottery that long, but the diversion to IW puts the Oracle at risk. I'd appreciate opinions on this, however.

Aerobot, I'm not too worried about Iron being in the desert, as my 3rd border pop from Goldenpig and Horsetown should cover that territory. In my experience, though, Iron almost never appears in the desert; it likes plains and plains hills, mostly, and sometimes tundra or snow. Oil, though, LOVES the desert. I'm sure it's there. I just gotta live long enough to find out.

It's a challenging map, gang. It's almost as if the game looked at the first five ALCs, saw that I'd won them all, and decided to throw me a curve ball. I think we're up for it. But I suspect we're in for a bumpy ride...

 

[Killroyan]

About the copper, let paris grow to 4, mine the other grassland hill, chop 1 forest and get stonehenge in about 10 turns. Culture boost from 4 to 13, GP points and you only need about 25 turns from then to acquire the copper. That is almost as fast as building the second settler (roughly 10 turns), moving it to horsetown (roughly 3 turns) and letting it grow for 5 turns (total of 23 turns at least). Propably something like 10-15 turns difference. Barb influence will be very low especially if you send a fog buster to the north. It is a risk I agree but the coastal city is a lot better then horsetown if you ask me.

 

[Sisiutil]

A dotmap based on the suggestions so far. Established city in yellow, high priority sites in red, secondary sites in cyan:

Those are a lot more spread out than I usually prefer, but the desert doesn't give me a lot of choice. Maintenance costs...ouch. Code of Laws and courthouses will be a priority, and I'm rethinking delaying Pottery.

I know not everyone is in agreement on the sites I prefer, so please feel free to post your own dotmap and argue your case before the court, Mr. Justice Sisiutil presiding.

Am I the only one who gets the feeling that this is a really big continent, and that the western portion extends further north than my little peninsula? Or maybe that's just me hoping, so the AI will forgo crossing the jungle to settle and go in the opposite direction, giving me time to snag these spots. We'll see.

 

[Aerobot]

About the copper, let paris grow to 4, mine the other grassland hill, chop 1 forest and get stonehenge in about 10 turns. Culture boost from 4 to 13, GP points and you only need about 25 turns from then to acquire the copper. That is almost as fast as building the second settler (roughly 10 turns), moving it to horsetown (roughly 3 turns) and letting it grow for 5 turns (total of 23 turns at least). Propably something like 10-15 turns difference. Barb influence will be very low especially if you send a fog buster to the north. It is a risk I agree but the coastal city is a lot better then horsetown if you ask me.

Okay, this? Is a great idea, in my opinion. Or at least worth a shot, with the previous options to fall back on if you have to.

 

[Killroyan]

Hmm, when I look at the dotmap, it isn't even so bad with horse city. The ricefish city is actually quite nice this way, but there is big chance yellow will beat you to it and settling near the rice and the two elephants. That is what I would do at least, so it will be hard getting that city over there. You could even opt for a copper city on the desert tile east of the capital. Since it is directly connected to your capital it won't cost any maintenance. Still an option. And do send a warrior/scout north or is it already clear that there is no more land up there? If there is more land there then there is a chance you can pop some huts. If there isn't more land just let 1 unit stand there to fogbust and to eliminate barb influence from the north.

Maintenance will be tough in this game, as the whole game will be if you ask me. Well you have your challenge I would say.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

And VoU, Hunting was Nares' suggestion, purely for the Scout.

OK. I disagree with the choice, but that doesn't make it a bad play. It becomes a much better play if Archery becomes part of your Ancient era strategy. I haven't figured out how to make that work.

In terms of Ironworking or not, I'd be tremendously surprised if the original settler location had only corn and sheep. There figures to be two more resources in the fat cross, and they'll of course be production resources. Something to keep in mind while planning out the future of Paris.

 

[Jet]

Au contraire - one tile above the copper would be great. Because of compounding growth, the efficiency of one's opening is important. As soon as practical you want to develop Paris as a commerce city by working cottages, so you want to emphasize production elsewhere. The tile is a plains hill and the sheep supports 3 mines, for a total of 15 hammers. It needs no infrastructure buildings, so it can immediately start cranking a barracks and axes, or a wonder, or even warriors and settlers. Losing the sheep does not cripple Paris. Paris can work all its low-food tiles and still have a food surplus of 2 which which to expand over its grass and coast.

 

[pigswill]

Chances are that if Isabella and HC have different religions they ain't going to get on at all. Also likely that Tokugawa will remain isolationist so not much diplomacy there. Looking a bit ahead this makes Tog your first target so expanding towards him makes a lot of sense, so I'd reckon goldswine city first then either horse city or stonehenge for copper border pop.
Edit: this also looks like a moving capital kind of map.

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

About the diplomacy, nobody said anything about early warmongering not being allowed Kick some of those psycho's of the island and then make good friends with the others. As long as you are ahead of the wonder race.

Right. In fact, I think early warmongering is almost required. You need the extra territory so your population is high enough when the votes happen.

That said, just like we discussed in the pregame thread, it's way to early to settle on diplomatic victory, but I don't think there's any reason to rule it out either. Just as an example, imagine that Huayna founds one of the other religions, and Isabella's spreads to you first. So you kill Tokugawa and/or Huayna. Isabella won't mind. Later on, your religious similarities keep Isabella on your side, and you find another ally on the foreign continent.

You might have trouble finding a foreigner that Isabella can coexist with, but it's not impossible. Especially if you quickly discover Liberalism and get Isabella into Free Religion. You could even keep one of your local enemies around as a punching bag so you get the occasional "mutual military struggle" points with Isabella.

Anyway, I'll say again that it's way to early for this to be a plan. I'm not suggesting that. Just pointing out that diplomacy isn't necessarily out the window yet.

 

[Eggolas]

There is a tactical decision that needs to be made I think. Do you chop out the settler immediately, sacrificing one of your precious forests? While it may not be necessary to do so, it is probably the correct move.

You need the Pig/Gold city desperately, for it's research and growth and to block Japan's expansion eastward. The map doesn't tell us much about what he has, but if it's anything even vaguely similar to yours (desert belt wouild be to his north, right?), his next city should go east and he's closer. Correctly, you're building a road to the site. But will you get there in time?

I would receommend a couple of things. First, chop out the settler. Second build the road so that the pigs are in the initial border. Third, place your southern warrior on a hill next to Tokugawa's border. You may dissuade him from coming east and you will see if he is. There are no roads to the pig site from his side, so you have a travel advantage.

Research: IW is important. It's about 20 turns. When will the barbarians start coming with archers? Archery is a lot less. The next tech should be one of those to improve your defensive capabilities. The former is less certain than the latter. Beyond that, you've got options to build cats for a rush on either Japan or the Incas. I actually prefer to take out the Incas . . . such nice, rich territory the jungle is and with a blocking pig/gold city, it makes sense to secure the eastern and southern flanks first.

City Placement: Concur with 2 E of Wheat on the coast. From there, it will depend upon what the Incan sites reveal. You will have three decent cities and can power research and build an offensive army to capture the territory you need. It might be swords, maces or cats . . . depends upon your wonder addiction.

So much for a peaceful builder game. You weren't dealt that hand.

 

[Petrucci]

I agree, it would be just lovely to play nice diplomatically with Isabella this game. After such a rough break up last ALC! I ~almost~ felt sorry for the gal, I could just see the tears swelling up in her eyes

I know alot depends on the future cards you draw, but she doesn't pose nearly the threat (if you adopt her religion or convert her?) of Huaya's GNP (in the jungle also eek!) and Tokky's army, and abstaining vote (if thinking of diplomatic).

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

I actually prefer to take out the Incas

I agree. Huayana is a more serious, long term problem. Tokugawa is an annoyance, but his isolationism tends to keep him backward. He's usually an easy target whenever you decide to go after him. As long as you can keep your power high enough to prevent a surprise attack, I don't usually have trouble with him.

Another thing to keep in mind, depending on how things work out, is that Togugawa can sometimes be an excellent diplomatic ally. He's a tough nut to crack, but if you can get him on your side, he's rarely a problem with other civilizations. He's so reluctant to trade with anyone, that he almost never racks up any "you traded with our worst enemy" points. He'll never be anyone's best friend, but he's also usually not their worst enemy.

The main argument against attacking Huayna is that if you decide to keep any cities besides Cuzco, they'll all have crazy names like the Aztec ones.

 

[cabert]

i second jet
Building the copper city soon can give you a good early production site.
Later in the game, you will need biology to make it a somewhat acceptable site, though.

About city placement, marble city could be 2 south of marble, so no peaks, or am i ?

my priority order would be :
copper, pig/gold, marble/elephant (you were bragging about all those wonders from industrious : marble is your friend)

building order : warrior, settler, stonehenge, axemen get started in second city (lyon?)

 

[Stolen Rutters]

Gol-den-pig, Gol-den-pig! I would have done the production rich Coppertown for city number 3 before hearing all the pro-horse arguments (I would have also given up the horse for the short-term and done 2E of wheat for the fish and the coastline). I would now be torn between horsetown and the mountainfortress (Erebor? mini-Maginot line?) for the marble, banana, and spice for the third city (actually, mostly for the double-speed/double-chop Marblepower for the Oracle)... come to think of it, I would give up horses in anycase, cause I want that Oracle too much so my toss up would be Marbleville or Coppertown.

About religion and diplomacy, I had to look back on your earlier screenshots to see where you met toku and isa. Without rivers, your trade network depends on a connection by road or by coastline (after one of you gets sailing), so unless you sink a road southwest to Isa, or if Toku gets Isabella's religion, you may actually be getting Huayna's religion first, though it does depend on who goes for sailing earlier since it's not a priority for an Oracle slingshot. (I guess one turn anarchy to switch religions when you want to change friends isn't out of the question, though, so it's probably not that big a deal.)

SR,
My $0.02

edit - Could you get both stonehenge and oracle? Oops, I thought this game was Monarch. Sorry. Go for it!

 

[Eggolas]

Do not delay Pottery. Next head for either IW or Archery dpending upon research times and when you expect barbarian archers to show. You're going to need some workers and cottages, since you have a dearth of commerce overall.

As for courthouses, I wouldn't head that way, at least not yet.

Wonders and buildings are a luxury that this position doesn't really afford. Instead, act as if this is a higher difficulty setting and focus on the land grab, building workers and military units. It might even be in your best interests to forego any early wonders, as heretical as that may be.

That Ivory (SW - bananas, spice and marble as well) in the jungle sure looks tempting, not only for the development and extra happiness, but also for the war elephants that can accompany your mass of siege weapons.

As for the Incans, if they decide to expand westward instead of north initially, it might be worthwhile to bypass the wheat and head straight down toward the coast to block near the Rice and the other Ivory.

I'm thinking a little of your last game in which you pushed far east to found York for its resource. It had the happy effect of sending Monty to the west and east initially, instead of north, which would have been a tougher situation (albeit one you would have undoubtedly handled). Here you have an opportunity to block both Aggressive Civilizations while grabbing land and resources and backfilling as you build military units and workers.

Finally, because of the delays in settling cities due to the terrain, you may want to build swordsmen with CR promotions to take the inevitable barbarian cities that crop up.

I know that's a bit differently played than you have done in the past, but it might be interesting.

P.S. I want to stress that you're in a foot race for quality city sites and copper town isn't one of them. The coastal town 2 E of the wheat and the position that takes the Ivory, Bananas and Marble south are the prime spots. Don't delay by building a library or wonder. Chop out the first settler for the pigs. Get the second one out for the fish/cow/wheat. Get the third out pronto for the ivory/marble. Discover Archery after Pottery and then IW. Archers should hold your positions for awhile, until you get something better.

Of course, you could just build a wonder and then try to take all the city sites that you like from the AI and barbs. A certain warmonger appeal, that.

 

[ese-aSH]

go for gold & pig --> the gold will raise youre happyness limit + you already have AH so pigs will allow the city to grow very fast + this city shall stand as a limit for japanesse expansion (if you found there you are likely to attack Incas first )

louis XIV is creative industrious right ? picking stonehedge is a good thing because it avoid a non creativ civ from getting a 'creativ - like' bonus, will reenforce your creative trait and is a good use of youre industrious trait =] + it will rush the border expansion to copper !!

+ prepare a road to Cuzco, your axemen will need it... i think the third city shall be the rice + fish you picked in blue. why ? because no food problems there, +2 health (regarding the ressources you should never have any health problem anyway) + its on the road to cuzco and will be a good start base for an eventual attack

the city with horses + cow + weat does not look good to me : you dont need horses right now (and cuzco has horses ! hmm dont you feel that cuzco is valuable to you ), copper shall be enough for your first war, the 2 health bonus are valuable, but the city would be surounded with plains... what will you do there ? comm city ? :/ prod city ? :/ ... there are no good production spot here (at least for the early game), so Paris shall produce a lot, better your 2 first secondary cities are specialized on commerce. (and dooing these 3 cities, you will spread among the coast --> coloseus might reveal a good objective)

 

[Paul666]

It may be time to consider desperate measures, even though it is early. You may want to build your second city directly on top of the copper!

Your worker can have a road pre-connected. Basically you are writting off this city and it would interfere with your capital. BUT......you can have those axes right away and try a take someone out quick.

I have never had to build right on top of a resource this quickly, and I am not thrilled with this counsel. However, you have nasty neighbors and a poor location. Quick action is required.