ALC Game #9: Incas/Huayna Capac

[Pogel]

OK, here's a dotmap that I think could work for either a cultural win or a continental invasion win.

City A needs 3 border pops to even attempt an early invasion, so I would make that my first build and also one of my culture cities. City B would make a superb GP city but I think it's worth making a hybrid GA/culture city.

Cities C, D & E overlap with our culture cities so as to work their towns early on. C woud be a miltary production centre & D would be able to help with the occasional GA later on (it can be irrigated from the south for a decent food suplus.

The rest of the cities fill out the land mass and pick up the major resources.

I think I'd probably aim for a MC slingshot to get confucionism in city A. I would then bee-line metal casting to get the Colossus there also (4 commerce per coastal square will make those coastal cities pay for themselves pretty quickly). Shrine + Colossus will also add 10 culture to get that border out asap.

 

[kniteowl]

City A needs 3 border pops to even attempt an early invasion, so I would make that my first build and also one of my culture cities. City B would make a superb GP city but I think it's worth making a hybrid GA/culture city.

Actually City A only needs 2 broader pops, If you noticed 4 tiles north of the gems its a coastal tile becuase you can see land on the corner of that tile and Gallys can travel on ALL Coastal tiles and Ocean Tile within your cultural broaders.

City A only Needs 100CP.

There's also the posibility It only need 1 broader Pop if the northern Continent is a litlle closer then we antisipate because we can't see where the coastal tiles are in the north east part of the continent So I'd like to see Sisiutil test out a Ship and travel N, N, NE of the Gems once he pops the broaders once and check out if the coastal tiles in the north east are closer.

I think City J should be setlled SW of it current location on the tundra, you still get the cows but you have to pop broaders first and you generally want to settle on the worst tile possible and keep the better tiles later for improvement.

 

[bugstud]

I don't think you want another religion, you want the other landmass, presuming it's just one landmass, as religiously divided as possible to forestall their growth.

 

[Pogel]

Yes, I agree. I didn't realise the continent would be reachable without the borders popped significantly. Perhaps Oracle->MC would be a good option to bring forges on-line quickly and help ensure the Colossus?

 

[voek]

I wouldn't focus to much on a early invasion with galley's. It sucks, excuse my language. It takes a lot of galley's and preparation. Just focus on a smooth ReX and whomp them when you have superior units (and therefore need less). By the time the culture borders are popped, caravels are around the corner, for the contact.

Early forges are good, but I think you need CoL fast too and this capital screams for bureaucracy.

Oh and I am guessing the other land mass (north) is small bearing max 2, but prob. 1 AI. The others will be on a bigger continent.

 

[TheArchduke]

I don't think you want another religion, you want the other landmass, presuming it's just one landmass, as religiously divided as possible to forestall their growth.

Very good advice there. Keep your one religion for happiness/money purposes but stay off the others. Especially Judaism/Buddhism/Confuciansim can create quite a mess.

Taoism, Christianity and Islam only really took off in my games when I founded them.

 

[Khalid]

I don't think you want another religion, you want the other landmass, presuming it's just one landmass, as religiously divided as possible to forestall their growth.

I think it depends on the type of victory you pursue. If you want culture, than more religions will come handy as probably no will spread from the other continet to you. but if you choose another victory type, you want them to fight due to religion reasons.

 

[cabert]

with writing as free tech, CoL is just nearby, so a CS slingshot is really doable. Who would want to miss that here?

 

[Khalid]

You can research CoL on your own before you pop a GP. With the FP and gold it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[patagonia]

Reason I would settle cow+gems later is you don't have iron working yet and maybe not for a long time. I would time the gems with ironworking, so prob third city. Another (lower priority) reason to settle east first is to fogbust more efficient with your city's. Not a biggy, but does count.

Sound advice - gem city isn't going to reap the benefits of its location until you can get that tile developed so settling it this early would be a mistake.

I'd probably make a city for the gems/ocean crossing my 4th and settle one way over to the east to pick up the gold, horses and rice out that way first - with the gold it'll start pulling its weight very quickly and it'll also do a reasonable job of fog-busting that end of the continent. Third city should be on the river between those two, giving you time to get a library built there before the GL becomes available.

As for the capital, get another worker out ASAP and if you've got time before you need to start on the Oracle, get another settler/Quechua combo built too. Don't be afraid of building too many workers in this game: you've got lots of land to develop as it is, and when you come to invading later on, you'll want to send a squad of them with your army to redevelop your new territory as the AI almost never builds enough cottages.

As far as other wonders go, Colossus + Financial makes any fishing village a goldmine, but the great lighthouse isn't going to benefit you much until you've contacted another civ, so pursuing masonry now probably isn't worth it unless you think the benefit of OR will outweigh the loss of popping a prophet for CS.

 

[gdgrimm]

As far as other wonders go, Colossus + Financial makes any fishing village a goldmine, but the great lighthouse isn't going to benefit you much until you've contacted another civ, so pursuing masonry now probably isn't worth it unless you think the benefit of OR will outweigh the loss of popping a prophet for CS.

I agree with you about the Lighthouse. Until you've contacted other civs, the extra trade routes will be only +1 commerce each (i.e. +2 commerce total), and the Colossus+Financial will completely outweigh that benefit with just 1 or 2 tiles being worked.

Whether to pursue Masonry or not is an interesting question. To answer it, I think we need to lay out what strategy (if any) we're going to have for using GP's and/or Oracle to pop techs.

Remember, if we're looking for a GProphet pop of CS, we need to do one of the following:
1) Avoid Masonry.
2) Take Masonry, but avoid Monarchy, and burn one GProphet on Theology before a GProphet can pop CS.

The big downside to path 1 is it greatly delays the use of Org. Rel., which would be quite useful to us since we have a religion that will spread aggressively. I mean, we've a free Forge just waiting to be used in every city, and the increased cost of OR is easily mitagated by the Fin trait. A smaller "downside" is it guarantees that we won't found Judaism (maybe not a big deal on this though).

Generally, one of the big downsides to path 2 is that, without Pyramids, Monarchy and HR is a great way to manage happiness. I don't think we'll have this need for this game, though. We've a religion to generate +2, we have Gold+Gems to generate another +2 pre-Calendar, and with a Forge (which could also be pre-Calendar) they'll give another +2. And of course, we all know about Sis and the whip. We can probably go the whole game without HR and not feel much of a pinch. So I'm thinking this downside really doesn't exist in this situation.

The other downside to path 2 is that you have to burn a GProphet on Theology, before you can pop CS. That really can only be mitagated by having plenty of Prophet GPP's. Since we're not Philo, that's going to be tough unless we can get multiple Temples and/or multiple Wonders in the same city. I'm going to guess that getting Stonehedge and Oracle in the same city is pretty unlikely on Monarch level (is this a bad guess?). So that really only leaves the hope that path 2 will lead to founding Judaism, where we could run Oracle, and 2 temples to generate GProphets quickly.

So I'm thinking I'll throw my votes this way....

Grab Masonry and Monotheism. If nothing else, OR will give a fast production boast (and we've nobody to annoy with our state religion). If we happen to also found Judaism, we'll have another Shrine, another way to generate GProphet GPP's, and OR will make it easy for us to push a second religion where it's needed.

If the Oracle pans out, use it to grab MC or maybe CoL. If the typical problem with getting Oracle on higher levels is production, well, we'll probably have a tough time getting it. We're not Ind., and we don't have Marble (or Stone, whichever it is).

 

[johnny_rico]

As far as other wonders go, Colossus + Financial makes any fishing village a goldmine, but the great lighthouse isn't going to benefit you much until you've contacted another civ, so pursuing masonry now probably isn't worth it unless you think the benefit of OR will outweigh the loss of popping a prophet for CS.

I think it's a good idea to get a boat north to find the other continent in your 'hemisphere'. If you find another civ, getting a shrine and allowing your religion to spread on another continent will allow you to meet more opponents. That is where the great lighthouse will help you out.

I think you could still do a cultural victory, but my vote would be for diplomatic. Your going to need monarchy for HR to maintain happiness, you'll be ok for health for a while longer.

You can still pop Theocracy with the Oracle if you have Monarchy. I just did it in a game I recently played. This layout was exactly similar to my own, however, I was able to find the other continent quickly and spread religion.

I'd agree that MC is clutch because of the gold and the gems. Lots of happiness to had there putting monarchy on the back burner.

 

[voek]

Yes it is a interesting choise to make. But I think if you wait for priesthood too long, you have a very good chance of losing it too a industrious civ or other AI.

Then the 25% doesn't cut it.

Burning a GP on theology seems like a waste, since it is useless tech without civs around us. Sure if you want the religion, but I think 2 is more then enough and indeed (as stated before) even too much.

After a lot of painfull thinking I vote for:
Priesthood first - start Oracle
Start CoL - time with Oracle - pick CS
Start masonry path for OR (yes late advantage for production, but we need food more anyway in the beginning = expand + CoL and Bureaucracy is just too good with this start). The prophet can be used for shrine.

 

[aelf]

AARGH!! Can you imagine the capital we'd have had if we'd settled 1 south of the start?!? Horses, gold, copper, corn, and 7 flood plains! Plus it would have been a lot easier to put cities on the northwest coast.

You mean 1E of the start? Well, that would be an extremely good location

 

[gdgrimm]

Yes it is a interesting choise to make. But I think if you wait for priesthood too long, you have a very good chance of losing it too a industrious civ or other AI.

So jump on Priesthood before Masonry/Monotheism? OK.

Burning a GP on theology seems like a waste, since it is useless tech without civs around us. Sure if you want the religion, but I think 2 is more then enough and indeed (as stated before) even too much.

For an isolated start and pursuing a Cultural Victory, I would think founding 3 religions is especially useful. I certainly don't see why it would be "too much".

If not going for Cultural, then I would agree. But I think the optimal play for this game is Cultural. Odds are we won't even get the first war started until after Astronomy, so I doubt a Dom/Con is going to happen.

After a lot of painfull thinking I vote for:
Priesthood first - start Oracle
Start CoL - time with Oracle - pick CS
Start masonry path for OR (yes late advantage for production, but we need food more anyway in the beginning = expand + CoL and Bureaucracy is just too good with this start). The prophet can be used for shrine.

Is the issue with Oracle CS slingshot on this level an issue in getting CoL soon enough, or an issue in getting production for the Oracle to be built first? If the issue is getting CoL researched quickly enough, then I think we're golden. Fin and FP+Cottages should be able to cover that. But if the general issue on Monarch level is getting the Oracle built first at all, then we're really starting in a bit of hole (not Ind. and no Marble/Stone). So NOT getting the OR production boost is just ignoring a rope that could help us out. How likely is it that we can get the Oracle built first without the rope?

Edit:
Or stated a little differently (hopefully more clearly).

If the main cause for not completing an Oracle -> Anything slingshot on Monarch level is not being able to get the Oracle built before an AI, then I think we need to do everything we can to maximize our production of the Oracle. That means getting OR ASAP after Priesthood. That may mean having to "settle" for an Oracle->MC or Oracle->CoL slingshot, but if we're putting production into the Oracle, any Oracle slingshot is better than getting beat to the Oracle due to lack of production.

If the main cause for not completing an Oracle -> CS slingshot on Monarch level is that the delay in getting CoL researched allows the AI to get the Oracle built first, then let's research CoL ASAP after Priesthood. Or at least take a look to see if we can research CoL fast enough that we won't need to delay the Oracle. This would nicely leverage both the Fin trait and the Writing hut pop.

 

[asabahi]

You can go for the stone hedges and than using the Great Prophet to light bulb theology and you have your religon. Meanwhile you can research techs you need, just making sure you have monotheisim before you pop your great prophet. Second great prophet for shrine and that is extra income. Also Organized Religon can be very helpfull. Just an idea.

 

[SchpailsMan]

You mean 1E of the start? Well, that would be an extremely good location

Sisiutil settled 1SW of the tile his starting settler started in. So the location he designates as "1S of the start" is now 1E of Cuzco. And yes, it seems that it would really have been an awesome place to settle in

 

[aelf]

Sisiutil settled 1SW of the tile his starting settler started in. So the location he designates as "1S of the start" is now 1E of Cuzco. And yes, it seems that it would really have been an awesome place to settle in

Oops. My bad. Didn't read carefully

 

[DuseCutter]

I just wanted to say that these threads are great. This is my first "live" one as I've read some of the others after the fact. I currently play on Warlord level because I still want to try all the new things in the game. (I came from Civ2) But just from reading these threads I gleaned a lot of information that makes it obvious to me now that I'm playing way below my level. I can't wait to get enough experience to be able to contribute a little to these.

Good luck! But I think you are golden on this ALC.

 

[Pogel]

I think an Oracle->CS is probably too risky. I have done this on Monarch, but I considered myself fortunate to do so (Oracle at 700BC). I think going for the Oracle->CoL and then GP->CS gambit would be a better bet.

I still favour the northern gems/cows/horses city for the second location. It's a decent location for a gold city (gems/coast/lots of grassland) and has pretty good early production - the grassland cows and horses give nice hammers without impacting use of the whip. It also has 3 forests that can be chopped (without a border pop) and without causing any permanent health problems, so the Oracle should be well within reach.

Also important is the fact that strong early culture can help you access the northern continent early on for trade & religious purposes and help dictate access to your own continent pre-Astronomy. If that is an island to the north it may be strategically valuable to swamp it with culture.