Alexander the Great Scenario: Help!

[LouLong]

Kryten, I don't mind finishing the map if that takes some load of your back...
So you can send it to me if you want (thanks for your compliments about my maps BTW).

I just need to "digest" your modifs perfectly.

BTW do you need the Egyptian spearman for this scenario ?

 

[Kryten]

Cheers Akula.

Here is that list of city improvements & small wonders, as thrashed out by Mongoloid Cow, realn and myself.
Any suggestions or observations will be very welcome.

As for the names of the actual techs themselves....I am still in two minds about this.
Exsanguination's original plan was not to have techs as such (the scenario only covers some 13 years), but to have some sort of historical 'events' instead. Possible crude examples:-
"The King Becomes Ill" major event (which allows Military Physicians)
"New Local Governers Appointed" major event (which allows Petition Houses)
....things like these.
OR, just call each one "Major Event", so that the player cannot predict the future....they will have to adapt their playing style to whatever the fates give them....which is more realistic.

For now, I would just name them "Major Event 1", "Major Event 2", and so on until I get a chance to re-read Arrian again in order to find out just what the major events of Alexander's & Darius' life were.
We can always tweek and re-name them later.

As for the SHAPE of this tech/events tree....I have no idea at the moment!
Something like three or four branches would do.
And because they are events and not technological improvements, they do not have to follow each other in an evolutionary or logical way.

Oh, one more thing....I'm planning on there being 3 periods, and the Persian leaderhead will change in each one, from Darius to Bessus to Spitamenes, showing the historical change of leadership.
I'd like Alexander to also change in each period, from being pure Macedonian at first and more Persian as time goes on....showing how he adopted more and more Persian customs and dress.
(Much to the disgust of his veterans!)

Anyway, here is that list.....

Aqueduct = Water wells
Bank = City Treasury
Barracks = Training Ground (example: Campus Martius outside Rome)
Cathedral = Temple Complex
City Walls = (unchanged)
Civil Defence = Armoury
Coal Plant = Furnace
Coastal Fortress = Sea Defences
Colosseum = Amphitheatre
Commercial Dock = Warehouses
Court House = Petition House
Factory = Smithy
Granary = (unchanged….or maybe Storehouse?)
Harbour = (unchanged)
Hospital = Apothecary
Hydro Plant = Water Mill
Library = School
Manufacturing Plant = Workshop
Marketplace = (unchanged)
Offshore Platform = Salt Works
Police Station = Guard House
Research Lab = Philosophical Arena
Stock Exchange = Provincial Mint (unlikely to be one in every city)
Temple = Shrine (so that it doesn’t get confused with Temple Complex)
University = Academy
---------------------------
Heroic Epic = Heroic Eulogies (increases the likelihood of leaders)
Iron Works = Slave Market (doubles output in one city)
Forbidden Palace = New Imperial Capital (only Alexander needs this)
Wall Street = Imperial Bureaucracy (requires 5 Provincial Mints)
Military Academy = Military Discipline (the troops stay in formation without a leader’s charisma)
Pentagon = Military Tactics (Alexander was the first Greek to have a reserve, at Gaugamela)
Intelligence Agency = The King’s Eye (“....I’ll be watching you....” )
Battlefield Medicine = Military Physicians
---------------------------

Would someone like to do something similar with all the Civ3 World Wonders?
Especially ALL those wonders that make people happy (we will definitely need ALL these under different, even fictitious, new names).

---------------------------

As you can see, there is a great need for new city buildings to represent all these.

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by LouLong
Kryten, I don't mind finishing the map if that takes some load of your back...
So you can send it to me if you want (thanks for your compliments about my maps BTW).

I just need to "digest" your modifs perfectly.

BTW do you need the Egyptian spearman for this scenario?

Thanks LouLong.

And yes, your Egyptian would be perfect....now you can see why I have been hoping it would be completed.
If you like, you could post me all the bits you have and I could finish it for you.
(Sounds like a fair exchange....one map for one unit. )

Here is the map, with the ORIGINAL Civ3 terrain (as I said, I need a few days to perfect the new xtgc/xpgc/xggc/xdpc/xdgp/xdgc terrain files).....

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
Kryten, how often do you visit the CDG forums?

Not nearly as much as I should!
(....busybusybusy..... )
I will try to do so more often from now on.

Originally posted by PCHighway
Is there a place I can download the cities? Take it from the picture you posted? Or should I start from scratch?
I have a question about where I should post previews and ask questions (this thread? Realn’s site? CDG?) as I have trouble making a final decision .

Good point!

Here are my current cities....
(If you can make better ones....and I'm sure you can....then please do. )

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads4/Alex_cities.zip

As to where to post the finished articles, how about this:-
* Discussion and previews here,
* Finished items at CDG, as there is already an Alex the Great forum, with many existing threads.
Then, when all the bits are assembled over there, we can bolt them all together an post the scenario at both sites.
(I don't want to play favourites or snub people....and I certainly don't want to get caught up in politics....)

 

[Louis XXIV]

I was just wondering if you saw the Spartan Hoplite for rome: total war (I posted a pic in the thread where you were working on the Spartan Hoplite)

Also, you got some questions by other people

 

[PCHighway]

Thanks, do you want a wall around all the regular cities (excluding the first level city)? Do you want me to alter the first two lines (they seem to be completed ). If not then it would put me at a great advantage just to make the next lines (or three in one case). Also, I am slightly confused about the Mid East graphics, which civs will be using that type? It uses bits of the American graphics.

Last question , what time do you want this done by?
And thanks again for the reply.

Louis XXIV's post reminded me of my sig, and that reminded me of a game, the game if HIGH quality free-ware that has been in production for years, you can check out their site here. It centers around the year 0 A.D.

Wildfire Games 0.AD

 

[hetairoi22]

Your idea abour event made me thinking of a combination of:

Major Events (may lead to all of the three, require other Major Events or Technologies[?])
Technologies (may lead to major events, require other Technologies or Major Events[?])
Minor Events (dead-end advances, offers a small advantage militarily or culturally or otherwise)

I'm wondering what the correlations between Techs and Major Events should be, though, I just think it's interesting with dead-enders, that gives the player more options and choices to make.

Example: Philip's Reforms could be an early tech (Major Event), which would be available to the Macedonians from the start. This could lead to Philip's Assassination (Major Event) and Introduction of Mercenary Armies (Minor Event). Whereas Philip's Assassination would lead to Alexander's Ascendancy, and other key-advances, Mercenary Armies would be dead-end tech that would give Mercenary Cavalry (or something). So yoy have the choice of either proceeding merily along the technological path or being able to build a weaker, but cheaper unit...

Mercenary Armies
^
|
Philip's Reforms --> Alexander Ascendancy

What are you thoughts on all this?

 

[hetairoi22]

Also, I wonder, which events would be carried out in-game (the taking of cities or destruction of military formations by units, by building wonders/improvements and the benefits granted through building them, etc.) and which would be "technological" discoveries?

 

[Kryten]

LouLong,

Sorry to muck you about, but there has been a slight change of plan.

It is no longer necessary to change all the terrain graphics.
I have found that I can achieve all the desired results just with the following:-

* Grassland remains unchanged, as are forests (no cities or roads).
* Plains remains unchanged, as are pine forests (no cities or roads).
* Hills remain unchanged (no cities or roads).
* Mountains remain unchanged (impassable).
* Tundra is not required.
* Desert is renamed "Dirt Tracks" (can have roads).
* Floodplains renamed "Watered Sites" (can have cities & roads).
* Jungle renamed "Sandy Desert" and looks like sand dunes.

This should help to make your job much easier....
....just use the standard Civ3 terrain on Exsanguination's map, but don't use any desert or floodplains, and put jungles where desert should be.
Then I can just plop "Watered Sites" where I want the cities, and connect them and the resources with "Dirt Tracks".

I'll have the new "Sandy Desert" & "Dirt Track" terrain ready for you tonight, with a bit of luck.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'll answer everyone else's questions a little later, if I may.
Please bear with me.

 

[Kryten]

To PCHighway,

City Walls:-
Yes, I thought that as larger cities automatically have an extra defence, we might as well show it by giving them walls.
And I was wrong about the Scythians: their larger ‘cities’ will also need something....maybe a wooden palisade surrounding their wagon laagers perhaps?

As the scenario only covers 13 years (from when Alexander accedes to the throne of Macedon in 336BC to his death in 323BC), some 156 Civ3 ‘months’, there is not much need for the cities to change their appearance in the three periods.
So I was just going to copy the same graphics into all the periods.
But I do think that my Scythian Encampments could do with smaller wagons.

Culture Groups:-
As we all know, there is no diplomacy editor in Civ3 (shame!).
But I remember someone once mentioning that civs of wildly different culture groups dislike each other more than those of the same culture group.
So I thought it would be a good idea to have the following:-
* Macedon, Corinthian League & Lacedaemonians = American culture group.
* Egypt & several Arabian States = European culture group.
* A couple of Scythian nations = Mediterranean culture group.
* About three Indian nations = Middle Eastern culture group. (Thatched roofs & rough stone walls)
* The Persian Empire = Asian culture group.
Being at opposite ends of the scale, the Greek nations and Persia will hopefully stay as enemies of each other, and not sue for peace too often.
(All this will probably have no effect. Still, without a diplomacy editor, this is all we can do)

Improvement Icons:-
What IS desperately needed is some icons for all of those re-named city improvements.
A large number of them would be ancient looking building graphics....Water Wells, Guard Houses, Water Mills, Smithy, Furnace, Provincial Mint, and so on.
Of course, some cannot be represented by buildings....I plan to create a Hoplite sitting on a stool with his arm in a sling and a bandage on his head being given a cup of herbal broth by an old man with a beard and long robe (i.e. an ancient leader) to represent Military Physicians for example.
I wonder if you could have a go at some of these building for the tech/events tree and city display?

How Long?:-
Well, it has taken us over a year to get this far....and without the kick in the backside from calgacus it would probably have taken me another year all on my own!
So when convenient for you matey....no rush.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Kryten
...Being at opposite ends of the scale, the Greek nations and Persia will hopefully stay as enemies of each other, and not sue for peace too often.
(All this will probably have no effect. Still, without a diplomacy editor, this is all we can do)
...

Uhm, hate to kick you in your Achilles heel, but I don't think there actually is a scale. Just 5 different cultures which like each other too much for my liking. If you distribute this as a .sav file, you could start the game by putting out persian settlers, which you can conquer as greek, and immediately disband them. If you kill enough persians, they would probably be pretty pissed. I think this only works in ptw though, and I don't remember if the scenario is for vanilla only.

 

[Kryten]

Thanks mrtn.

You're right...I don't think it will work either, but every little helps.
Yes, it will be necessary to 'pre-program' the scenario before the first turn, just to set the scene.
Getting them to be at war with each other at the begining is fairly easy to do....what worries me is KEEPING them that way!

And we do need all the extra features of PTW (in fact, we really need the extra features of Civ4!), so I'm afraid that it will be a 'PTW only' scenario.

(BTW, I like your 'swamp' resource idea. )

 

[Kryten]

To hetairoi22,

Oooo....I like your ideas about Major, Minor and Technological events!
Please do go ahead.
If it helps, here is a link to some of the events in Alexander’s life....
Http://faq.macedonia.org/history/alex.timeline.html
....and here is another one....
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AlexandertheGreat.html

As for units, there won’t be much upgrading (the scenario only covers 13 years).
The only things I can find are these:-
* In 329BC Alexander dismissed his Thracian Peltasts and Thessalian Horsemen, and started recruiting 30,000 Persian ‘Successors’....so that is one upgrade.
* During the 326BC Indian campaign the Hypaspists were rearmed with fancy silver shields and called “Argyraspids”....so there’s another upgrade.
* Early in the scenario the Persians will be able to build a new foot unit called “Cardaces” (who fought at Issus in 333BC), and later they get “Scythe Chariots”.
* And the Egyptians will start off with very few weak units (they had recently been re-conquered by the Persians after a long revolt), but later will be able to build much stronger native units....so if Alexander decides to march to the heart of Persia first, he may get a bit of a shock when he comes back to tackle Egypt later on.
He will find that although they rejoice about being freed from Persian tyranny, they don’t see why should submit themselves to this foreign barbarian....they want their freedom!

Also, I wonder, which events would be carried out in-game (the taking of cities or destruction of military formations by units, by building wonders/improvements and the benefits granted through building them, etc.) and which would be "technological" discoveries?

As you know, Civ3 doesn’t have the old Civ2 ‘events’ script, so I’m afraid that ALL new things will come from the tech tree.
The idea is to use the tech tree to ‘simulate’ certain historical events.
Also, many people far better than myself have tried to think of ways to make it so that certain techs can only be researched by certain civs.
I don’t think that anyone has succeeded so far.
So we will have to word each tech/event so that it can apply to all the civs.

Hmmm....all this is a bit vague and not giving you much to work with.

Tell you what, give me a few days, and I draw up a list of some of the names for the tech/events.
Then you can assign what improvement/wonder/ability/new unit can go with each tech/event, how they link up with each other, and fill in the gaps with fictitious tech/events (a “New Governor Appointed” event here, a “Greek Entrepreneurs” event there, and such like).
How does that sound?

Because some historical events will be tied to World Wonders, such as the “Macedonian Mutiny” which causes almost ALL other World Wonders to be come obsolete, some will be tied to terrain, such as “Our troops are dying of thirst!” if Alexander marches through a desert, and “The Death of Darius” will be a picture which appears when the Persians enter a new era so that Bessus becomes their new leader.

Exsanguination never actually got round to discussing the details of the tech/events tree, and I really must get this part of the scenario sorted.

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by Kryten
Thanks mrtn.

You're right...I don't think it will work either, but every little helps.
Yes, it will be necessary to 'pre-program' the scenario before the first turn, just to set the scene.
Getting them to be at war with each other at the begining is fairly easy to do....what worries me is KEEPING them that way!

And we do need all the extra features of PTW (in fact, we really need the extra features of Civ4!), so I'm afraid that it will be a 'PTW only' scenario.

(BTW, I like your 'swamp' resource idea. )

What if you nuke a persian city at the start of the scenario? Then people will be pissed all right. If you make them bloody furious, they should stay pretty mad. Just put a city in a corner somewhere, and use transparent pollution. If you don't want to go the nuke way (everyone gets angry), you just have to kill enough workers. Would 100 do?

Also, many people far better than myself have tried to think of ways to make it so that certain techs can only be researched by certain civs.

You always have the ERA NONE tech. You can use this together with some resource which appears at some certain tech to be able to build things later in the game, for example.

 

[LouLong]

OK, Kryten. I got the new info on time. Not much before the week-end though !

 

[PCHighway]

How’s this coming along? Are they small enough? I haven’t started the palisades yet.

Improvement graphics, sure, but is the list the one earlier in this thread? Or is there a place I can find it? If so, which ones do you want me to do?

Im not to good with MF units, but perhaps you can find someone (to take some time off your hands) to make some 'phalanx' formations out of your hoplites? I t could be a new unit type. After some major event happens, for example.


[EDIT- Sweet! Firaxis is making another Civ3 expansion! More good uses for my money, and proof that they prospered off of Civ3 PtW. Maybe they will have a Diplomacy Editor, and for sure we are getting eight new civs. Well, in any case, I hope we finish before next fall . ]

 

[Pangur Bán]

The AtG scenario would be included in the new expansion pack if it were finished in time. Just a little incentive

 

[mrtn]

Originally posted by calgacus
The AtG scenario would be included in the new expansion pack if it were finished in time. Just a little incentive

I assume this is if it doesn't include any AoE units, I can't imagine Firaxis selling those.
Does it include the Javelinman, for instance?
PCHighway: It's looking good, but shouldn't the scythians et al use tents, and not houses with thatched roofs?

 

[Louis XXIV]

It definately includes a "Battle for Mesopotamia" scenario

It has a Javelin, but a Mayan one.

It seems to have "fixed diplomacy" (which is great)

They might have an AtG scenario (they'll have 8 scenarios) but I'm sure you'll do a better job

You still have people with questions over at CDG, just to let you know

 

[Kryten]

Originally posted by mrtn
PCHighway: It's looking good, but shouldn't the scythians et al use tents, and not houses with thatched roofs?

Well, perhaps the Scythians were semi-nomadic.
Nomads don't usually wander about aimlessly, but follow their animals set migration patterns....up to the north in summer and back south in winter.
And it seems reasonable to me that they would errect semi-permanent mud & straw huts to see themselves through the long harsh winter months (they are living in what would one day be known as southern Russia, and we all know what their winter's can be like!).
But tents would also work just as well.

I think the smaller wagons look much better PCHighway.
Just one thing, would it be possible to have more wagons around the larger settlements....say add two extra wagons as each 'city' increases in size?

As for the Improvement list; yes, the one posted on page 2 of this thread would do fine.

UNITS
-------
The plan is not to use any AoE units, for just the reason that mrtn gave (which is why I need to make sooooo many! ).

Now some people dislike multi-figure units (philistines!), and MF units are quite large in size and take a long time to download.
So the plan is to make this a single-figure scenario, but have a seperate multi-figure 'deluxe extra add-on pack' for those who wish them, which they can then download or not at their own leisure....
....so the MF units will be the last things made.

Because making units using the old 'cut-'n-paste' method takes me so long, I've decided to first create a static non-animated default version of all the missings ones first, then to animated them all later.
Doing it this way has three main advantages:-
* We can start play-testing the scenario instead of waiting for me to finish them.
* Every unit needs a default flc anyway, so I may as well do them first.
* Resizing this static flc allows it to be used in the units.32 file, the city build display, and as the civilopeadia pictures, as well as the tech/events tree.

Originally posted by calgacus
The AtG scenario would be included in the new expansion pack if it were finished in time. Just a little incentive

"......under pressure, pressing down on me, pressing down on you, under pressure....."
Quote by the late Freddy Mercury of Queen.

And as each unit is finished.....
"......another one bites the dust....."

Originally posted by Louis XXIV
You still have people with questions over at CDG, just to let you know

I'll go there now. Thanks for letting me know.