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All things Star Wars

Discussion in 'Arts & Entertainment' started by EgonSpengler, Aug 15, 2014.

?

Sith or Jedi?

  1. Sith

    29 vote(s)
    42.6%
  2. Jedi

    39 vote(s)
    57.4%
  1. Laurana Kanan

    Laurana Kanan Don’t underestimate who I am.

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    I rather like adult Ahsoka's pair of white lightsabers and also the contrasting Mandalorian Darksaber.
    It was in one of the new EU TFA-prequel novels, Before the Awakening, I believe.
     
  2. Takhisis

    Takhisis ΑΛΗΘΩС ΑΝΕСΤΗ

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    up yours!
    See? Right there. The film is so incomplete that half of the plot is in books that are not even generally available. No wonder the public is confused, it's like going to the opera without knowing Italian.
     
  3. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I think its one of those things that require the consumption of outside-of-movie material to know... which I generally don't approve of.
     
  4. Takhisis

    Takhisis ΑΛΗΘΩС ΑΝΕСΤΗ

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    up yours!
    I wonder how you felt when the new page loaded. ;)
     
  5. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    "Force Belongs to Everyone" starts with Broom-boy, not Beatrice (Rey) Solo-Skywalker (who's mysteriously as good at flying the MF as Han Solo is*) It's being prepared for in "No more Jedi. No more Sith." But only prepared for. First, there's a three-generations-old imbalance in the force that has to be balanced.

    X will finally be able to go in the bold new directions everyone wants. IX has a saga to bring to completion. VIII may have looked like it was going in new directions, but all of those were just to throw off viewers' expectations regarding the plot of IX.

    *seriously, shouldn't Occam's Razor kick in at some point in these considerations?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
  6. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    You have no argument at all here, just replying to simply disagree in a roundabout way.

    But there's one thing you seem to admit that's interesting - the writers didn't plan the whole new saga beforehand (from what you said about "years of hindsight"). Maybe that's why the previous trilogies were better at establishing the universe and creating a coherent mythology.
     
  7. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    She casually drops a bunch of techy knowledge in the scrapyard on Jaku. That's your proof that she knows ships. Worrying about how she accumulated that knowledge is always going to require out-of movie material, because a majority of the audience do not care.
     
  8. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I tell you how I didn't feel... I didn't feel like editing my post just to acknowledge that @Laurana Kanan had beat me to answering your question... thanks for noticing :p
    "No argument"? Dude... how many times/ways can I put this to you. I don't buy the notion that anyone can be convinced/persuaded about this film at this point. Everyone's already made up their mind. The film is great, possibly the greatest Star Wars film. I have no aspiration to convince you of this. I accept that you don't agree, and it doesn't bother me at all that you can't be convinced. On the other hand, you seem to be annoyed that I'm not buying your arguments... accusing me of "not reading your posts" and "not making an argument" and calling the film "dumb" and so forth. I'm not trying to convince you. You're trying to convince me, and failing, because your argument is poor and illogical... so keep at it... or don't.

    Another thing...I can't "admit" something that I don't know. I have no idea what they planned and didn't cause I wasn't involved in the planning. And that should be obvious, so I'm not sure why you're twisting in pretzels to assert it other than wanting to be contrarian. Also, your logic fails again... them mapping out the trilogy in advance and them making a product which is subjectively displeasing to you isn't remotely mutually exclusive, and your inexplicable insistence on your own brilliance seems to be the only thing that prevents you from recognizing that.
     
  9. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    Precisely. So I don't get why you're splitting hairs about this.

    You didn't tell me how it's illogical, though, but whatever.

    You're way too worked up and offended about this. I guess that's what a fanboy is like.
     
  10. Synsensa

    Synsensa Warlord Retired Moderator

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    I'd rather be a fanboy that likes Star Wars than a fanboy that hates it, tbh. Far less stressful and negative.

    He says, while disliking all the new Star Wars material.

    Let me dream of a better life.
     
  11. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    I certainly don't hate it enough to want to argue for the sake of arguing. Clearly, the debate had gone stale because it's been about whether people agree with the current direction or not and there's no convincing anybody, but I thought there could be more common ground in the idea that they needn't have done it like that at all.
     
    Synsensa likes this.
  12. Sommerswerd

    Sommerswerd I never yielded

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    I did explain it to you but I will try again, one step at a time. I pointed out that your critique of the movie benefits from years of hindsight. You claimed that was an "admission" on my part that "the writers didn't plan the saga beforehand". That is an illogical statement. So first, please tell me whether you understand/agree that your statement was illogical. If not I will try to explain it to you again.
     
  13. Takhisis

    Takhisis ΑΛΗΘΩС ΑΝΕСΤΗ

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    up yours!
    Well, but they've said there won't be a X for some time. This isn't Land Before Time, after all. ;)
    OK, yes, but that doesn't explain how she gets to learn how to fly a spaceship unless we can just handwave as ‘You're a wizard, Harry!’. Wait, even Rowling makes Harry take magic classes.

    It's sloppy film-making, especially if the director does take unnecessary time to get in a few lens flares and wastes time on e.g. Phasma.
    You're welcome. :)
    But only dream, eh? Now, about this ‘following two sports’ thing…
     
  14. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    Donno when, justno what. IX has a saga to complete (trailer stresses as much). Then they're free to see what other kinds of stories can be successfully set in the Star Wars universe, or whether it's effectively a one-family galaxy.
     
  15. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Sure, but it doesn't need to be explained. Only nerds think like that, which is why the explanation is only offered in niche supplementary material. For most of the audience, it is sufficient that it the ability or characteristic is proven, and that it is consistent with the character. Quite possibly a more elegant script would have had a throw-away line referring to this flight simulator, but its absence doesn't cause the narrative to break down.

    The bigger objection would be that it's taken to be consistent with the character in part because the audience understands Rey, at this stage in the proceedings, to essentially be "Girl Luke", and because Luke knew how to fly, we accept that Rey knows how to fly. The criticism to be made is that The Force Awakens frequently leans to heavily on the audiences presumed familiarity with previous Star Wars films to fill in the gaps in characterisation, rather than the absence of little nit-picky details.
     
    Thorvald of Lym likes this.
  16. Mouthwash

    Mouthwash Escaped Lunatic

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    i.e., the writing is lazy.
     
  17. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    Yes, but not for the reasons presented.

    Consider that, in New Hope, we don't get any real explanation as to where Luke learned to fly. We learn that he wants to be a pilot, but otherwise it's just sort of assumed that he... picked it up? What stray lines of dialogue about "power converters" do is establish that this is the sort of character who might plausibly know how to fly a spaceship. Is this lazy writing, or is this efficient writing?

    The problem with The Force Awakens is that it doesn't set this up in the same way; we get some similar lines that serve to prove Rey is familiar with ships, but they're all sort of crammed into the few minutes leading up to the chase scene. This is partly because she has to get into the pilot's seat a lot earlier in her movie than Luke does, so there simply isn't the space for it. But she's able to do that because the audience is primed to accept that Rey can probably fly a space ship, because she's the protagonist of a Star Wars film and that's what they do. In this sense, it is lazy writing.

    Now, that was always going to be true to some extent or another. The audience is familiar with Star Wars films, just as the original audience were familiar with World War 2 films and chivalric adventure films, and at least passingly familiar with samurai films and pop-Oriental mysticism. Not explaining stuff because the audience already knows what they need to know for it is not really a break from precedent, so accepting an additional layer of self-awareness is not itself an unwise move. The objections that might be raised to Force Awakens that they relied on this not only to skip over stuff that didn't need to be explained, but to skip over certain parts of characterisation, allowing Rey and Poe to serve as stand-ins for Luke and Han for a large part of the film, with only Finn working as a wholly new character from his introduction onwards. That's the root problem, that the film invests so much in clarifying its relationship to the original trilogy and especially to New Hope that it forgets to clearly mark out its own space within the greater narrative, rather than "in episode BF12, you were battling barbarians while riding a wing'ed Appaloosa, yet in the very next scene..."

    (I mean, the root root problem is that they hired the guys from The Raid, and gave them nothing to do. Rey could have been Mark Hamill wearing a wig, for all I cared, if they'd let Iko Uwais do some sweet flips.)
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
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  18. aelf

    aelf Ashen One

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    "Years of hindsight" suggests time to see all the plot threads and assess them. This could also be done in advance with careful and detailed planning - plus there's actual evidence that any overall planning was rough at best, since Rian Johnson supposedly had a lot of freedom to do what he wanted for the second film. There's the logic.
     
  19. Gori the Grey

    Gori the Grey The Poster

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    "I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters."

    (I'm not contesting your core argument, that TFA relies, and rightly, on the audience's knowledge of SW films)
    (just paying tribute to IV: the thing about it, for me as a lad of 12, was precisely these stray bits of dialogue that enabled me to imagine a world behind and beyond the world depicted in the film. Still my favorite thing about SW movies. Like in the prequels, that aren't good in a lot of ways, there's that diner that Obi Wan goes to because the slovenly proprietor has a double-life that puts him in contact with otherwise difficult to come by knowledge: that diner and that guy live on in my imagination. I can invent what he does on the many days that an Obi Wan doesn't visit. It's mostly overseeing his diner, of course. But it also must involve a little bit of activity that keeps him in contact with that darker world. There's a whole Star Wars film in that guy's life, in my experience of the franchise.)
    (one of my disappointments with TLJ was that the frenetic plot interfered with my ability to settle in to this imagining-outward-from-dropped-details-of-scenery-or-dialogue. I don't imagine any stories out of the Canto Bight casino because I'm still puzzling over whether they found the right guy with that insignia or didn't find the right guy with that insignia).
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019
  20. Traitorfish

    Traitorfish The Tighnahulish Kid

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    This is actually a good example of what I'm talking about, because: what's a "T-16"? All we learn from the film is that it is something you can be in, and that you can bullseye womp rats in it; the line works because it's delivered certainty that allows the audience to believe that it must be relevant and true. And for the purposes of the film, that's enough. The revelation that it's some sort of in-atmosphere craft is something that's only presented in expanded material.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2019

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