Alpha testers needed for Steph's mod 2

[Phlegmak]

You are supposed to make settlers and relocate of your population is to big

If you're being serious, which I doubt, then this is a bad idea on your part. At this time in the game, the entire planet is populated except for a few islands.

Actually yes. The question is, is it balanced? Was the large polution of New York normal, because it had a population to large for its own good?
I think at a point you should change your citizens, so they don't produce to much food and you can keep your city population under control. If you let a city grow to fast when you don't have the technology to control the pollution, you'll get problem.
Build an army to reduce population, use specialist... Create workers, get rid of some farms.
Actually, there are means to fight pollution already.
The real question is should it stay that way, and you'll have to balance things until you can clean pollution when you get to ecology? Or is it really not fun to play?

So far, it hasn't dampened my fun. I just decided that's the way the game is. I stopped building Multiple Stories Housing in cities that don't already have it.

I have a question. It seems obsolete buildings to no disappear from your city if they produce culture.
1) Can you confirm that? Did your building disappeared when obsolete if they had no culture? Stadium should have disappeared, but not the stadium.
2) If it's confirmed, then should I remove the culture bonus of some buildings, or it is better to get rid of the "obsolete" part?

I never built a Stadium and I can no longer build it. Are there other buildings which don't have any culture bonus that I could build that become obsolete? I suspect culture has nothing to do with it. My current tech level is around 5 techs after Urban Planning (whatever tech gives me Multiple Stories Housing).

I think the best course of action is:
1) If the AI doesn't sell buildings that become obsolete, then get rid of obsolete buildings altogether.
2) If culture is indeed the culprit for not autoselling obsolete buildings, then remove the culture bonus of all buildings that become obsolete.

I think Civ 3 just simply never autosells obsolete buildings, like the Barracks of Civ 2.

By the way, is the building Multiple Stories Housing, or Multiple Story Housing? The better English name is Multiple Story Housing.

 

[Steph]

There are others, but you are not close to find them.

I think the next may be the Guild hall with corporation

I'll run a quick test to check what happens

 

[Steph]

after a quick test, it's confirmed that obsolete improvment do not disappear.
And the effect is not cancelled properly.
In fact, the flag was supposed to be used for wonders only apparently, as they can become tourist attraction.
So I'll have to rework the building parts, remove the obsolete buildings.
And probably a few techs in the process.
Damn.

 

[Steph]

I have corrected a lot of errors in the US upgrade path.

I have remove some buildings, like church, cathedral, etc.

And no improvment becomes obsolete any longer.

I'll tweak a bit the buildings stats now to take into account the fact they are not obsolete anymore.

About the citizens:
With currency, you have the tax collector (1 gold), and then with banking the banker( 2 gold).

I think the apparition of the second doesn't make the first obsolete

 

[cemo1956]

Well I´m back with those pesky aircrafts.... sorry but I can´t help it.

I have been looking at the French Air Force and Aviation Navale
You have used the Morane-Saulnier 406 as a 2nd gen Naval fighter, well I would like to have you look over in Wyrmshadows unit creations.
He has a fine version of the Dewoitine 372 which could be a better starting unit for Aviation Navale instead of the Nieuport.
Then a unit of the Dewoitine 510 was made long ago and that plane did serve in Aviation Navale according to wikipedia. The old Dew0 with open cockpit. If you haven´t got it I got one.

So we end up with Naval Fighters:
Dewoitine 372 - Dewoitine 510 - ? - F4 Corsair - Crusader according to your ExcelDocument.
The ? could easily be filled by any of Seafire (served with the first Flottille 1946, Hellcats (150 served from 1951)

We do have some French Hellcats and even French Dauntless to play with thanks to Wyrmshadow.

Then the Morane-Saulnier fighter should be moved to land-based fighters after the Dewo 520, where it actually was placed in real life.
Then sadly we got the Nieuport left out ....
Yes I know the Royal Naval Air Service (England before Fleet Air Arms) bought some Nieuports

All these if I understand that the marking NOT AVAILABLE should be or could be filled in the tech-tree... If not I misunderstood.

Am I wasting your time as well as mine, hmm. ???? ;-(

 

[Phlegmak]

About the citizens:
With currency, you have the tax collector (1 gold), and then with banking the banker( 2 gold).

I think the apparition of the second doesn't make the first obsolete

"Appearance".

I think this is ok. A note about these specialists would be useful for the player. I suspect the AI player is good enough in choosing the appropriate specialist.

By the way, I suspect someone else already mentioned it, but the AI doesn't make use of all the crazy units you invented. They just choose the strongest all the time.

I forgot to mention this earlier. I tested some aspects of the obsolete buildings. Barracks, after becoming obsolete, no longer make veteran units, but they still cost money. Churches show two content faces in the list of buildings in the city display in the cities that built them. I'll test it out to see if it's actually contributing content faces to my cities by selling the old Churches. If the old Churches actually don't contribute content faces, and the AI can correctly deal with obsolete buildings, then I think you can keep them in the game.

 

[Steph]

Well I´m back with those pesky aircrafts.... sorry but I can´t help it.

No pb, your feedback may be helpful later when I arrive to more exotic civ.

I have been looking at the French Air Force and Aviation Navale
You have used the Morane-Saulnier 406 as a 2nd gen Naval fighter, well I would like to have you look over in Wyrmshadows unit creations.
He has a fine version of the Dewoitine 372 which could be a better starting unit for Aviation Navale instead of the Nieuport.

I prefer to keep the Nieuport for initial naval fighter, it's older. And white, no camo.

Then a unit of the Dewoitine 510 was made long ago and that plane did serve in Aviation Navale according to wikipedia. The old Dew0 with open cockpit. If you haven´t got it I got one.

As you said it's an old unit, that doesn't go very well with the newest aircraft of Wyrmshadow.

So we end up with Naval Fighters:
Dewoitine 372 - Dewoitine 510 - ? - F4 Corsair - Crusader according to your ExcelDocument.
The ? could easily be filled by any of Seafire (served with the first Flottille 1946, Hellcats (150 served from 1951)

I've left a blank and purpose because I want the French aeronavale to be relatively weak, compare to UK and US. So they don't have the best upgrades, and when the US and UK have yet, France still has F4U

All these if I understand that the marking NOT AVAILABLE should be or could be filled in the tech-tree... If not I misunderstood.

NOT available means the civ is not allowed to build this kind of unit. Like France has no jet bombers.

 

[Steph]

By the way, I suspect someone else already mentioned it, but the AI doesn't make use of all the crazy units you invented. They just choose the strongest all the time.

Part of the goal of the alpha test is to detect units that would never be built by the AI, and see if it's possible to tweak them a bit and make them interesting.
Beside, the units are there first for the enjoyement of the player, so he can try different strategies, or simply find it more enjoyable as more "flavourized".
I knew from the start the AI would use only a part of it.

I forgot to mention this earlier. I tested some aspects of the obsolete buildings. Barracks, after becoming obsolete, no longer make veteran units, but they still cost money. Churches show two content faces in the list of buildings in the city display in the cities that built them. I'll test it out to see if it's actually contributing content faces to my cities by selling the old Churches. If the old Churches actually don't contribute content faces, and the AI can correctly deal with obsolete buildings, then I think you can keep them in the game.

I already removed the obsolete buildings. It will free some spots for civ specific buildings, or goverment specific buildings. I have also reduced a bit the happy faces and culture provided by some of the buildings.

By the way, I came with a new idea.
I could create improvment based on spme resources, that would require the resource to be in the city radius.

Like "Famous wineyard", or "Aluminium Mining". They would produce some tax output, perhaps some production, to the cost of pollution for some.
And then, I could make a "Aluminium Mining headquarter", that would be available as a SW, if you build let say 5 "Aluminium mining", and would give extra bonus.

What do you think of this idea?

 

[Phlegmak]

By the way, I came with a new idea.
I could create improvment based on spme resources, that would require the resource to be in the city radius.

Like "Famous wineyard", or "Aluminium Mining". They would produce some tax output, perhaps some production, to the cost of pollution for some.
And then, I could make a "Aluminium Mining headquarter", that would be available as a SW, if you build let say 5 "Aluminium mining", and would give extra bonus.

What do you think of this idea?

I am not against the idea. Does it fit in with your previous ideas on reproducing history?

 

[Phlegmak]

I'll probably be able to playtest again this weekend, so put up an update on your site.

A note on population: The last time I pressed F8, I had 71% of the population in the game. This is a staggeringly high percentage. The reason why I have the most is because the other civilizations are building so many units that they destroy their own populations. I've seen some Greek coastal cities and they all have low population. The amount of territory I own is only 2/3 of one continent. The Greeks have 19/20 of their continent.

 

[Steph]

I am not against the idea. Does it fit in with your previous ideas on reproducing history?

Not only that, but also to give more variety to the economic side of the game.
I'll make an update soon for that.

The British will wait.

 

[Steph]

I'm currently uploading an intermediate update.
It corrects the graphics centering issue with the American cavalry, add the British Air Force, correct the mistakes you listed (I hope ).

And:
- I remove the obsolete buildings, and tweaked a bit the other buildings.
- I have added 21 new buildings, "plantation" and "mines", that requires a resource within the city radius and give tax boost and sometime production, -- and 21 small wonders "company headquarters", that you can build when you have 5 of the previous building of the same type (thus having a kind of "world monopoly"), and you get additional bonus

The doc is updated, but doesn't include these latest buildings yet.

You'll note the name of the biq has changed, I made an attempt at removing the population cost for the unit 01 to 04 (I did only the main infantry lines, it's boring to do!!!).

Tell me if the gameplay is better like that.

Upload should takle about one hour, if it doesn't stop in the middle..

 

[Phlegmak]

75. Hey, I sold a Church. It had no effect on the happiness/unhappiness. So that means the effect totally stopped when it became obsolete.

76. I investigated all of the Mexican cities. They built 3 or 4 Barracks. They built NO OTHER BUILDINGS.

77. I investigated all of the Roman cities and they look like they're doing 1% better than Mexico. They actually built other buildings.

78. I gave every technology I had to Mexico and Rome, hoping it would cause their Barracks to become obsolete. I noticed the Mexicans still have Barracks that produce culture. It's like I simply can't give them Fire Arms.

79. The entire game slows down when a fully loaded Merchantman is the active unit.

80. The game slows down for any ship with troops aboard.

81. The Hellas 5I - Pikeman has 4 hp at regular. I guess this is normal?

82. I'm a Constitutional Monarchy now. I can support only (game just crashed from me switching from emacs back to Civ. The game won't restart.)

83. Possible improvement for the American bowman unit: Give it a bombardment range of 1 and a bombardment attack # of 1.

84. So I'm paying 168 gold per turn for upkeep of my army. At 60% tax, I'm producing a surplus of 327 per turn.

85. I made peace with Hellas. I investigated London and found that it had a Barracks. I gave Hellas Fire Arms. I investigated London and saw that the Barracks no longer provided culture. Next turn, I investigated again. Hellas didn't sell the Barracks. So that means that the AI is incapable of getting rid of obsolete ordinary buildings. If it wasn't for this, you could still use your obsolete buildings.

86. Many units seem to not have any kind of fortify graphics.

87. The US_07N + Frigate has a black picture in the civilopedia.

88. Good news. I investigated London after a while, and the Barracks is gone. So the Greeks sold it. So you can keep your obsolete buildings then.

89. The Greek Galley or whatever it was didn't rotate at all to shoot at me head on. It uses the Dromon graphics so it should face forward when fighting. My Privateer correctly used a broadside attack.

90. You have some random arrows on the Industrial Ages science screen.

91. It's turn 496 now and I just started the 3rd age.

92. Weird. I just got into the 3rd age and now I can trade a bunch of techs to Mexico again. I guess there was some untradeable tech at the end of the 1st age.

~~~~~~~~~

I'm downloading the newest patch and I'll play with that one. In my opinion, you can leave in the obsolete buildings.

 

[Phlegmak]

Steph_NoPop
July 27, 2007


Crash when trying to start up the mod:
ERROR READING FILE

Missing entry in "Scenarios\..\Scenarios\Steph_History\text\PediaIcons.txt"
ICON_BLDG_TropicalFruit_Plantation_H

I added the entry and tried again.

Continents 70%
Normal Climate
Temperate temperature
4 Billion age
Standard size
Roaming barbarians
Default rules
All random enemies
Normal aggression
Regent difficulty

1. There is a mystery luxury resource. It shows up as no icon on the map and no name. One of my cities has 2 luxury resources, and only 1 has a road to it on the map. Very odd. Also, the icon for the luxury resource is blank in the city display.

2. The US bowman unit is awesome. It went from ass-sucking to awesome.

3. Very odd. Two luxury resources just showed up in Washington's luxury resource list. They both have icons. This was after I connected it via roads to my other major cities. The mystery luxury resource now has icons in the cities that used to not have icons.

4. Andes scum declared hostilities.

5. I suspect you're going to dislike the American bowman. It rules the ancient era. Unless there's some similar enemy unit. I noticed this unit requires 1 pop point: 2I - Bowman (Mx). Did you only remove the pop requirement from American units? That kind of defeats the purpose for removing the population cost. It's the AI that suffers from depopulation, not the human player.

6. That mounted barbarian is viscious. It just killed two of my workers in one turn.

7. I switched to the 2nd age and I got this:
FILE NOT FOUND:
"SINGLE"

8. I'm not sure that Bowman is out of balance. The Americans had no good fighting units for a long time and now I got into a war with Andes. My Bowman aren't really wiping the floor with them like I expected. Overall, I think the Bowman is a vast improvement for the Americans.

 

[Steph]

Steph_NoPop
5. I suspect you're going to dislike the American bowman. It rules the ancient era.
8. I'm not sure that Bowman is out of balance. The Americans had no good fighting units for a long time and now I got into a war with Andes. My Bowman aren't really wiping the floor with them like I expected. Overall, I think the Bowman is a vast improvement for the Americans.

The bowman gives you some punch, but you don't have much more, so I think you'll find it's no so unbalancing.

Unless there's some similar enemy unit. I noticed this unit requires 1 pop point: 2I - Bowman (Mx).Did you only remove the pop requirement from American units? That kind of defeats the purpose for removing the population cost. It's the AI that suffers from depopulation, not the human player.

I did a quick updat, remove all the pop for US and France, and for the other civ all the spear and sword lines. Some units may still have it, so it's not perfect, but the goal is to see if you feel it's better, and if I should extend it, or keep the pop cost.

6. That mounted barbarian is viscious. It just killed two of my workers in one turn.

Isn't he ? Atilla!!!!!!! Run for your life!!!!

 

[Steph]

75. Hey, I sold a Church. It had no effect on the happiness/unhappiness. So that means the effect totally stopped when it became obsolete.

Perhaps but then there is a bug as the city screen show them working, it may be confusing to players.

76. I investigated all of the Mexican cities. They built 3 or 4 Barracks. They built NO OTHER BUILDINGS.

77. I investigated all of the Roman cities and they look like they're doing 1% better than Mexico. They actually built other buildings.

78. I gave every technology I had to Mexico and Rome, hoping it would cause their Barracks to become obsolete. I noticed the Mexicans still have Barracks that produce culture. It's like I simply can't give them Fire Arms.

Strange, strange strange...
Could it be because Mexico has an agressive level, and so they build only unit?
But Italy is not fully agressive...

79. The entire game slows down when a fully loaded Merchantman is the active unit.

80. The game slows down for any ship with troops aboard.

I did nothing special about it. Could it be a general CivIII behaviour? Does the type of troop aboard change anything?

81. The Hellas 5I - Pikeman has 4 hp at regular. I guess this is normal?

ROTW units are not checked, so I can't really tell.

82. I'm a Constitutional Monarchy now. I can support only (game just crashed from me switching from emacs back to Civ. The game won't restart.)

What can you support?

86. Many units seem to not have any kind of fortify graphics.

Converted graphics don't always have fortify to start with.

88. Good news. I investigated London after a while, and the Barracks is gone. So the Greeks sold it. So you can keep your obsolete buildings then.

92. Weird. I just got into the 3rd age and now I can trade a bunch of techs to Mexico again. I guess there was some untradeable tech at the end of the 1st age.

Except the "sub era" techs such as Iron age, all the techs are tradable at the moment.
I'll introduce non tradable techs soon, for some civilization specific buildings or wonders.

~~~~~~~~~

I'm downloading the newest patch and I'll play with that one. In my opinion, you can leave in the obsolete buildings.

Well, in the newest patch they are out. Try to play a bit with it, tell my if you like it better. I may reintroduce some of them later. But perhaps not all of them.
I think I'll work a bit on the wonder and small wonder first, and see how many slot I've left for the buildings, before making some obsolete.

 

[Steph]

I have uploaded a new patch.

I really hate adding buildings, and I screwed it big time when I did the patch yesterday. If you look at the pedia entries, or at the science advisor, it crashed immediately (and also during loading).

It should not crashed anymore with the 07_07_28 patch.

Note that the graphics currently use "no icons"

I have also added a new French specific tech, wonder and unit, the Knight templars (produced by the wonder).

And I have started to add the scout/ explorer and spy lines.

I've also upgraded the French 07 cuirassiers graphics.

 

[Plotinus]

By the way, is the building Multiple Stories Housing, or Multiple Story Housing? The better English name is Multiple Story Housing.

Actually it should be multi-storey.

 

[Phlegmak]

Actually it should be multi-storey.

I guess it's "storey" in Britain.

 

[Phlegmak]

Perhaps but then there is a bug as the city screen show them working, it may be confusing to players.

I simply recommend you make a note in a readme.txt file or something. Tell the players what's going on. Also, if your obsoleteable buildings produce culture, it becomes obvious when they stop working when they stop producing culture.

I did nothing special about it. Could it be a general CivIII behaviour? Does the type of troop aboard change anything?

I have no explanation. I suspect it might have something to do with the vast number of different unit types in the game. Several screens that deal with units are affected badly.

What can you support?

I was simply going to state some numbers, which I stated elsewhere.