Altered civic options for FfH

[ChaoticWanderer]

I Think Their Should Be A Government Like The Phoenicians Had One where the king was Balanced By a major trade Organization which could outlaw his ideas.

I think it should get Bonuses From Guilds and Foreign Trade Routes. But Their Is Major War Weariness ( if you go to war with a race you cant trade with them makes your trade orgainzation upset) Also you cant Accept the Stop Trading with someone. Also maybe it should only be available to Neutral Civs

 

[Caradoc]

I always seem to have problems installing modmods. I dropped this on the FFH mod and under Assets it made a folder called Modules with AltCivics inside that. However, the alternate civics did not show up on the game menus. What did I do wrong?

 

[Sureshot]

you put the Modules folder into your assets folder.

you also need to edit the "Fall from Heaven 2 025.ini" and change the Module Loading line to have a 1 instead of a 0

 

[Rex rgis of Ter]

I like magoracy giving double effects of all mana. Doubles spirt gp bonus, chance of fire causing forest fires, nature helping forest growing, etc.

 

[onedreamer]

Unlike probably almost all of you, I think magic would help more production than science. In a world where magic would be promoted and used freely, as I think Magocracy is, you could have a lot of physical jobs made easier by magic. On the contrary, I really can't see the positive connection between Magic and Science. I actually see the opposite. Even in real life, any scientist would laugh at you if you spoke of magic with him. Anyways: what's the point of scientific research in machinery, for example, if you can lift any weight with a simple enchanted lifter ? In the end, Magocracy should give a bonus to production and a penalty to science, instead of the contrary.
To this extent it would also be nice if dwarves had a bonus researching mechanical techs and a penalty researching magic techs.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Magic
is the bending
of laws of nature

In our world
It isn't possible
And science has taken the way of mechanics and physics
But our chemistry is based on medieval alchemy
Which has its origins in magic

In Erebus
Magic is real

As it is real
one can truly research it
and become better
achieve more
find even deeper ways
of warping the reality

magical research


But even mages
can't sustain themselves
without food and water
like all other mortals

Thus they need those
and someone to produce it for them
And that someone
is away from doing something else
like all those mages

What do they know
of physical labour?




nothing
They don't care

10 chars...

 

[xienwolf]

Aye, as Bottom Row said in his quote, if magic were actually possible, science would NOT laugh at it, but rather embrace it and find ways to utilize it better. Ben Franklin could easily have called Electricity "Magic" instead and our current world would indeed be using Magic in our everyday life.

 

[onedreamer]

Ben Franklin would have been a wizard with absolutely no reason to research electricity to do the stuff electricity now does: he would have researched magic telekinesis or some other stuff. Furthermore, I didn't say that there can't be Magic Research, I in fact proposed to give a penalty in this field to dwarves and a bonus to non-magic research. I also didn't say that Science would laugh at magic if it was actually possible, I said that a scientist would laugh at you if you spoke of magic with him today. What you said in your last lines Xienwolf is exactly what I meant: if we could use magic we wouldn't need much of our scientific research. We wouldn't need to research combustion to fly over the Atlantic if we could simply fly with magic or even teleport.

 

[zxcvbnm]

But we would research ways to teleport faster, safer and easier.

 

[xienwolf]

Yes, we would still want to research Science, even if we had Magic. The point of research is NOT to make Bigger, Better, Faster etc. That is not the point of anything but commerce/sales.

Researchers do NOT care what the outcome of their research is. They just want to know how it works. Someone can be equally interested in the physical and the metaphysical. Imagine how useless it would be for a mage to know that he can summon a small pulse of light and control where it moves. But if he understood that a laser is a series of small pulses of light that oscillate back and forth until enough have gathered together to have a much higher energy, then suddenly that spell is IMMENSELY powerful.

The short of it is that Basic Research, even in our own world, is largely considered completely and utterly useless. Nobody ever sees any point in it at all until a decade or two later when the ramifications have been fully explored and a practical use emerges.

So yes, even a Mage would be vastly intrigued by the concept of a catapult. He would think about how hard it is for himself to summon the mental energies and generate a fireball, how it leaves him unable to grant the troops speed in battle or call up earthquakes to damage the defenses. Then he would fully support the pursuit of seige weaponry, and possibly even be interested in assisting in the development of them.

 

[onedreamer]

I don't know how to answer to arguments such as "research how to teleport faster". It seems there can't be an honest discussion with certain people sometimes.

 

[zxcvbnm]

Faster, safer and easier is practical research, which some Govannon-like mages would be likely to do if teleportation was used widely.
Teleportation is not necessarily instant if it's not a portal but a spell which takes time to cast, or the portal might need time to empower itself.

But then a mage might be so powerful that (s)he doesn't care about using catapults as magic is so much "easier". But they would still study the arts of the arcane.

 

[xienwolf]

I would say the reason we cannot have "an honest discussion" is because you do not think of Magic as having rules apparently. I am assuming that in your mind if you are able to do magic, you can simply do ANYTHING, and no personal effort is ever required again.


In that case, we differ in views too fundamentally to be capable of having any discussion on the topic. Though I would love to know what your take is on the different levels to the spells, and requirement to utilize your experience to learn new spheres.

Anyway, in my take on things, if Magic exists, it has laws and rules, just as Physics does. And anything you wish to do requires an understanding of those rules, which you have to research.

In addition, any rules of Magic would interweave and rely upon the laws of Physics, as they would rely upon the laws of Magic. Look for instance at the spell "Crush." This is basically just the spell "Summon big Rock," but it is being cast up in the air above the target. Without Physics (Gravity), this is a useless action. But, since someone who happened to know how to summon big rocks also understood that big rocks fall, HARD, they created the spell "Crush."

 

[Marksman77]

Come on, I'm pretty sure people did know that rocks fall before they called it gravity! No big science needed here.

 

[xienwolf]

Correct, but it still requires science. My previous example about a laser is far better, but it seems to have been too technical perhaps, and the point was missed, or summarily dismissed.

 

[zxcvbnm]

I would say the reason we cannot have "an honest discussion" is because you do not think of Magic as having rules apparently. I am assuming that in your mind if you are able to do magic, you can simply do ANYTHING, and no personal effort is ever required again.


In that case, we differ in views too fundamentally to be capable of having any discussion on the topic. Though I would love to know what your take is on the different levels to the spells, and requirement to utilize your experience to learn new spheres.

Anyway, in my take on things, if Magic exists, it has laws and rules, just as Physics does. And anything you wish to do requires an understanding of those rules, which you have to research.

In addition, any rules of Magic would interweave and rely upon the laws of Physics, as they would rely upon the laws of Magic. Look for instance at the spell "Crush." This is basically just the spell "Summon big Rock," but it is being cast up in the air above the target. Without Physics (Gravity), this is a useless action. But, since someone who happened to know how to summon big rocks also understood that big rocks fall, HARD, they created the spell "Crush."

I've always figured FfH magic as channeling of mana of different spheres, each of which is a bit similar to our quarks and other particles. They have their effects and things they affect, and everything is composed not only of normal matter but also some mana types, like the aristotlean 4 element system. Thus the science of Erebus would include studying the essence of mana like ours studies the essence of matter.

Crush is actually a huge hand coming from the rock and crushing things there. It's done by using earth mana to grow and move the rock to wrap around the target and squeeze it, and as rock's hard, it crushes it.



Wow, we managed to make a disccussion of magical-physical theory of FfH universe. All we need now is to explain the greenness of plants of Erebus as there's no photosynthesis...

 

[Grillick]

Who says there's no photosynthesis?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Kael did. If plants relied on photosynthesis, then everyone would have starved when Tebryn's Armageddon spell stopped the sun form rising for several months or maybe even years in Kael D&D campaign.

However, Kael also said that there were probably a few other inconsistencies between the different campaigns on which he based FfH, and her was no reason for the lack of photosynthesis in most of the games. I don't know if the long night of Tebyrn's spell has ever been officially incorporated in the FfH history, so there isn't necessarily a good reason to assume no photosynthesis in Erebus (I don't think the Tebyrn campaign was actually set in Erebus anyway)

 

[Nikis-Knight]

Kael did. If plants relied on photosynthesis, then everyone would have starved when Tebryn's Armageddon spell stopped the sun form rising for several months or maybe even years in Kael D&D campaign

I don't recall the post, so Kael might have said it just like that. But there is another explanation as well, namely that there is not only photosynthesis, but other processes as well which plants have access to, that could have kept them alive in a diminished capacity given a total loss of light.
Obviously there is sythesis of some sort, if not photo, then manasynthesis. Given that mortals can access magic, through some innate process by talent or will-power, it's not inconceivable that other organisms could as well.

Unlike probably almost all of you, I think magic would help more production than science.

"Science" in FfH2, and vanilla civ as well, really, isn't just tinkering with wires and chemicals, but shorthand for any systematic thought. That's why there are technologies such as priesthood, elementalism, ancient chants, drama, omniscience, and trade, as well as blasting powder and metal casting. As such, a magic orientated society could help in understanding many of these, if the society was one prone to encouraging curiosity, studying new things, discussing and theorizing about the universe, etc. Then again, one could argue for a magocricy that venerated tradition and deference to authority rather than novel ideas, stifling research.

Not so much different from religion, I suppose, in that regard.

 

[xienwolf]

And of course, one of the Angels in the Nature sphere could have intervened for the plants.