Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

[Dachs]

Athens was a tyranny until the late 500s BC, until Cleisthenes. Then they got democracy, and then an overseas Empire with the Delian league. No Lycurgus?

 

[Symphony D.]

Well, that just goes to show why I'm not developing the idea myself.

 

[das]

The thing about Greece is, Corinth is even more important as a trade center - and democracy often has much to do with mercantilism of a kind. Corinth being a middle man between Kizus and the eastern colonies on one side and the western colonies on the other, not to mention that some of the western colonies are/were Corinthian in the first place. Hence, democracy developed there. Athens, meanwhile, has weaker trade then in OTL, plus the Trojans are blocking the path for Black Sea colonization, to which Athens somehow contributed. Plus, we can always have a Cylon-like person solidify tyranny instead of Cylon's defeat consolidating democracy (yes, I know Cylon came after 650 BC, that is one of the reasons I said Cylon-*like* person; not to mention that its unlikely that the same people will be born according to the very theory of althist).

 

[Dachs]

Athens had little to do with Black Sea colonization until Pericles' expedition a few years before the Great Peloponnesian war. I know they discovered the mines of Laurium later in OTL, but that'd give their economy a huge boost...

 

[das]

No, I do believe that their first colony was on the path to the Black Sea or something like that, which signifies economical importance of trade with the Black Sea colonies for Athens. Here, Troy bars the way for such colonization.

 

[Symphony D.]

I'm having more problems with China, but the Silk Route was fairly important, so changes in regards to it will probably affect China just as well.

Given ideas often come with trade, some strange developments could occur - say, perhaps, certain western notions migrating east. Be sure to include something that offends Alex's sensibilities.

 

[alex994]

Given ideas often come with trade, some strange developments could occur - say, perhaps, certain western notions migrating east. Be sure to include something that offends Alex's sensibilities.

.... You mean the foolish western notions of Democracy and Republic? China did quite well without those foolish notions for over 2000 years And don't forget the even more foolish western notion of religion playing a part in politics....

 

[Xen]

.... You mean the foolish western notions of Democracy and Republic? China did quite well without those foolish notions for over 2000 years And don't forget the even more foolish western notion of religion playing a part in politics....

oh, did well? if you mean rampant repression fo the underdregs of chinese society to fuel the lavish and perverse wants universal to nearlly all upper classes, then china did great. but its about tiem those underlings got soem rights of thier own, me thinks.

 

[North King]

Actually Chinese lower class peoples were usually better off (usually) than contemporary Europeans, they just had no political freedoms.

 

[alex994]

oh, did well? if you mean rampant repression fo the underdregs of chinese society to fuel the lavish and perverse wants universal to nearlly all upper classes, then china did great. but its about tiem those underlings got soem rights of thier own, me thinks.

Those dregs and underlings of Chinese Society lived better then the majority of the other people in the world from the Fall of the Roman Empire to the First three Emperors of the Qing Dynasty. Those "underlings" had more rights then in any other state before the comming of the Age of Enlightenment. HOw many countries had a Civil Examination? How many had a well organized Court System chosen through merit?

Xen, you're great in Roman History and Alexander the Great. But you don't barely know anything abuot Chinese History. Rights don't mean a thing compared to living well to Asian people.

 

[Insane_Panda]

Indeed. Personally, I dont think democracy would necessarily work instantly in China. The chinese people, after millenia of rule from one, central authority, have learned to accept whatever situation they are in, and work with, or atleast not against, the powers that be to ensure that they can live a peaceful life and make the best out of what they have - to them a peaceful, profitable life and strong family overweigh ideological concerns. Simply, the Chinese people are used to the rule of one authority, be it the party or the son of heaven, and for the most part accept it.

 

[alex994]

Introduce Democracy instantly right now overnight and all you have is a recipe for chaos. Your vaunted democracy and etc is all well spoken over a nice dinner, but most people would care less as long as they HAD a dinner and a nice living. It will come step by step.

 

[Xen]

Those dregs and underlings of Chinese Society lived better then the majority of the other people in the world from the Fall of the Roman Empire to the First three Emperors of the Qing Dynasty. Those "underlings" had more rights then in any other state before the comming of the Age of Enlightenment. HOw many countries had a Civil Examination? How many had a well organized Court System chosen through merit?

Xen, you're great in Roman History and Alexander the Great. But you don't barely know anything abuot Chinese History. Rights don't mean a thing compared to living well to Asian people.

dont give me that crap- the nationalist based nation in Taiwan is proof that when given a chance the Chinese, liek any other people, will have freedom and rights and self government when they can have it, even at the expense of being cut-off from thier home nation- the fact that the chinese people lioved better means absolutelly nothing, as they were still such slaves to thie rmonarchs throughout thier history that when thier govenrment became powerless, so did the people; perhaps the opium war is proof of that enough, yes? DOnt give me that BS that just because its west its never the best- democracy, regardless of who invented it is the most wonderful social invention to have ever coem, period. the fact that your ancestors choose to migrate to the united states, and live in such a nation shoudl be proof enough of that.

 

[alex994]

dont give me that crap- the nationalist based nation in Taiwan is proof that when given a chance the Chinese, liek any other people, will have freedom and rights and self government when they can have it, even at the expense of being cut-off from thier home nation- the fact that the chinese people lioved better means absolutelly nothing, as they were still such slaves to thie rmonarchs throughout thier history that when thier govenrment became powerless, so did the people; perhaps the opium war is proof of that enough, yes? DOnt give me that BS that just because its west its never the best- democracy, regardless of who invented it is the most wonderful social invention to have ever coem, period. the fact that your ancestors choose to migrate to the united states, and live in such a nation shoudl be proof enough of that.

The Nationalist based nation still has problems, at the last election there were huge fights and massive protests over who won and people still aren't satisfied with the results.

On the contrary, they didn't come at all for the rights. They came mostly for the job opportunities. They would care less about the rights.

I'll write more after i get back from class...

 

[Xen]

Actually Chinese lower class peoples were usually better off (usually) than contemporary Europeans, they just had no political freedoms.

and your point; your talking to a person who would live free before living rich; the standards of living in China make no difference to me; it is thie rinherent freedom i call for.

 

[North King]

and your point; your talking to a person who would live free before living rich; the standards of living in China make no difference to me; it is thie rinherent freedom i call for.

*shrugs* Just saying they were only repressed politically.

 

[ThomAnder]

Alex was talking about ancient china, how did it turn into about nationalist taiwan?

 

[Xen]

The Nationalist based nation still has problems, at the last election there were huge fights and massive protests over who won and people still aren't satisfied with the results.

that sir, is the very point of democracy- why dont you ever see this sort of thing in mainland china? because last tiem they tried, they were run over by tanks.

the entire point of democracry is to have the freedom to expressyourself if you are not happy with the way things are, and to be able to make your voice known, and heard, and talk,or argue with other to find a better way- the best way to go about doing things; democracy has its flaws, but at least we are free.

On the contrary, they didn't come at all for the rights. They came mostly for the job opportunities. They would care less about the rights.

and yet you enjoy the privliedges that coem with freedom as we speak now. WOO-WOO here coems the hypocrite train, and Alex has hopped on board at station number 1.

 

[Xen]

Alex was talking about ancient china, how did it turn into about nationalist taiwan?

democracy baby. the ultimate social boon.

 

[das]

And after posting *this*, you say that I have no sense of humour...

oh, did well? if you mean rampant repression fo the underdregs of chinese society to fuel the lavish and perverse wants universal to nearlly all upper classes, then china did great. but its about tiem those underlings got soem rights of thier own, me thinks.