Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

So? Which alternate histories appeal to you?

  • Rome Never Falls

    Votes: 58 35.8%
  • Axis Wins WWII

    Votes: 55 34.0%
  • D-Day Fails

    Votes: 41 25.3%
  • No Fort Sumter, No Civil War

    Votes: 32 19.8%
  • No Waterloo

    Votes: 33 20.4%
  • Islamic Europe

    Votes: 43 26.5%
  • No Roman Empire

    Votes: 37 22.8%
  • Carthage wins Punic Wars

    Votes: 51 31.5%
  • Alexander the Great survives his bout with malaria

    Votes: 54 33.3%
  • Mesoamerican Empires survived/Americas not discovered

    Votes: 48 29.6%
  • Americans lose revolutionary war/revolutionary war averted

    Votes: 44 27.2%
  • Years of Rice and Salt (Do it again!)

    Votes: 24 14.8%
  • Recolonization of Africa

    Votes: 20 12.3%
  • Advanced Native Americans

    Votes: 59 36.4%
  • Successful Zimmerman note

    Votes: 35 21.6%
  • Germany wins WWI

    Votes: 63 38.9%
  • Other

    Votes: 31 19.1%

  • Total voters
    162
Liberal vs. Conservative in Germany? Problem is, the conservatives had the army on their side, but, perhaps, it is not too impossible. Would've been interesting as to how the other powers react.

That's where I end the Sam Houston as President POD, after the assasination of the (liberal) Kaiser and the attempted coup the people try to revolt, starting the civil war. Russia backs the conservatives and drags France into it, Britain backs the people out of fear that if a Russian backed coup wins it in Germany then they loose their biggest continental ally. I'm going to do a raw German Civil War 1917 one, which will be quite different.
 
Freidrich III of Germany ruled for 99 days before succumbing to cancer of the Larnyx. The cancer had been misdiagnosed, leading to a necesarry surgury not being performed. He was a pacifist, and his wife was profoundly liberal, which was something that distressed Bismarck as her policies often influnced his.

Let's say that his surgery gets done and he continues ruling on for a little while, Bismarck is dismissed and Caprivi becomes the PM. Freidrich brings Germany on a new and more liberal course, assisted by Caprivi helps him quite a bit. They steer Germany to a more pro-English course, the German conservatives grow angry about his movements but Freidrich is a solid enough figure that they cannot stop him.

Wilhelm II does not become Kaiser, he and his brother both die prematurely and Freidrich outlives both. He dies in about 1901 in this timeline. He is suceeded by his great nephew, Wilhelm III. Wilhelm is 20 and too young to be effective, he lets Parliment rule for the most part and is heavily influenced by August Bebel, who Freidrich had appointed PM in 1897. The elite is enraged and begins a campaign to assasinate the liberals, it is a time of secret war, some say that the German Civil War begins with the coronation of Wilhelm.

This is how the things go on for a few years but in 1915 Max Baur assasinates the Kaiser, who has clearly come to age and is clearly more liberal than he was in OTL. Kuno von Westarp begins to moving to sieze power. This divides the nation greatly, the people are generally opposed to it and revolts begin to break out. The German Army is pretty solidly behind the coup.

Except for one fellow, and this is going to be what we do to keep the people's hope's alive, and that man is Colonel Paul von Lettow-Vorbeck. (A personal hero).

Lettow-Vorbeck was a conservative in OTL, and he posessed a strong sense of honor, he was really more of a classical liberal than a true conservative and we'll say that he disapproves of the assasination of the Kaiser and refuses to support the assasins even though they are conservatives. He is also a brilliant guerilla general and begins teaching the people to defend themselves and to organize.

Nicholas of Russia supports the German conservatives and begins sending 'volunteers' to Germany.

The French Republic supports the liberals and Vorbeck they send troops in. This rapidly breaks the Entente and brings France and Russia to war.

The Austrians send troops to help the Conservatives and the Russians.

The English remain out of the war.

The Italians join the war on the side of the French just to hit the Austrians.

I'll have to spend more time than I have here if you want to see this extended.
 
ahh, nevermind, i found it- its actually not all the different from my current NES
 
I find it rather odd that Austrians will send troops to help Russians... And besides, Russians were at that point slowly trying to liberalize, and it is most likely that they would invest in a weakened Germany by supporting the "losing" side. On the other hand, trying to understand Russian policies in early 20th century is very hard.
 
As soon as the civil war between Henri of Navarre's Huguenots and Louis of Guise's Catholics, the anti-French coalition collapsed, and different sides begun to support the two factions. Soon enough, actual intervention begun into French territory. Heavy fighting also spred, with time, to Germany, Poland, Italy, Castille and even Russia, Scandinavia and North America.

Not all the supporters of different factions were supporting them because of religion - first off, Huguenots were supported by the whole of Lisbon Alliance, including UPC and Portugal. The Lisbon Alliance was NOT interested in a strong France, but it felt that a civil war will weaken it, and a strong France friendly to the Alliance is better then a strong France hostile to it. Other supporters of the Huguenot France were the Denmark-Norway and the Schmalkaldic League, which, pretty much, was all of the Protestant Princes of Germany. At a slightly later point on, Russia got involved on the Lisbon Alliance side as well (OOC note - Time of Troubles is cancelled - Otrepyev gets no Polish support as Polish nobles have better things to do, like fight Turks. Boris Godunov dies much later then in OTL - probably as butterfly effect, but also there is much less stress when you don't know that there is a huge rebel/Polish army marching towards your capital).

Guise-supporters are pretty much obvious - Aragon, Jagiellon Empire, Bavaria (chief Catholic German power), other minor Catholics, Venice, the Papal States and the not-as-obvious Sweden for which it was an excuse for another war with Denmark-Norway.

Though there were less nations on the Catholic side, it was soon proved by the Polish forces that the chances were still pretty equal. The Guise Catholics were also somehow stronger then the Huguenots, even if marginally.

At that point, Jagiellon armies were fighting an on-and-off war with the Turks, and were on the defensive there, so they did not need many troops on that theater.

Very quickly, the Polish forces used this situation to annex their vassal in East Prussia on the account of planned treachery. Soon after, Polish forces also crushed a pre-emptive attack by Protestant princes at Warta and marched into Bradenburg.

In France the Huguenot powerbase was definitely the southwest, though Normandy at that point also was on their side, reinforced. If a bit reluctantly, the Italians supported the Catholics, as did Occitania (southeast) and the main area (north, minus Normandy, Brittany and Artois). In France, indeed, the fighting was perhaps the most severe - Schmalkaldic League, Lisbon Alliance, German Catholic, Venetian and even Papal forces were fighting throughout it, looting and pillaging as they went. The war hung in the balance there, as Henri was a more capable commander then the numerically-superior Louis.

War was also fought in Italy, on the western Russian border (Stephan lived longer in Poland and gained Smolensk ahead of time), on the sea and even in North America where a Dutch expedition in 1609 almost succeeded in taking Christinaburg.

As said before, one of the opening moves of the war was in Germany, as Polish forces, deciding to take out the major Protestant princes one by one, crossed the Oder after the victory at Warta. The Polish forces, led by Valdemar Bathory, plunged into Brandenburg, and by 1605, they held Berlin, Magdeburg and Dresden (though their control of the countryside was minimal). Attempts to advance to Mecklenburg and link up with Sweden failed due to the determined defense there, assisted by Dutch, Danish and English forces. However, they did link up with German Catholics and soon threatened the Palatinate. Unfortunately, Louis failed to commit enough forces to break through at Rhine and lost the Battle at Disentis against the Palatinate of Pfalz. That came just in time with another major defeat in 1607, when Henri seized Rennes, linking up with Duc d'Bretagne - another Huguenot and Henri's brother (in OTL, he did not exist). Only the succesful occupation of Normandy in late 1608 somehow relieve the Catholic position. At that point, Venetian, German, Castillean and Papal forces were already fighting throughout Italy and France in series of skirmishes. In Spain, the Castilleans led by Fernando Malingi fought back the Aragonese offensive at Murcia.

Perhaps one of the most crucial events in the war came in 1609, when Boris Godunov decided that the time was ripe. In the days of Ivan IV, Russia was in very good diplomatic relations with England, and Godunov intended to exploit it in the future. He was aware that Poland was fighting a two-front war in Germany and Hungary. Besides, he did some army reforms - though Russian army still was rather... primitive, it was better then in Livonian War. And, finally, Godunov worked on establishing contact with potential Cossack rebels. The latter did not suceed in raising a rebellion, but the possibility of it remained. Nevertheless, the undergarrisoned Polish eastern border was attacked by streletz troops, whose numbers overwhelmed the garrisons with shocking ease. Sweden, oddly, was not attacked and thus it managed to rapidly seize Pskov, cutting off the offensive into Livonia from Russia. However, the Muscovites seized Riga, Smolensk and even Kiev. Polish forces managed to stop the Russian westward attempt at capturing Minsk only in mid-1610, but there was no time to launch a counter-offensive. Godunov proceeded to personally retake Pskov after encircling and crushing the Swedish forces (despite suffering huge casualties, he could afford it) at Izborsk, 1611. Soon after, Russia made separate peace in Lublin with Poland and Sweden, keeping (out of their gains) Estonia (rest of Livonia remained Polish due to a succesful Polish counter-offensive there), Ingernia (OTL St. Petersburg region) and lands east of Dnepr, including Kiev and Smolensk (but excluding Minsk). For Godunov, that was a very important achievement, if only because Russia now regained access to the Baltic Sea, enabling its fur trade to rise again. Some doubt that it was a part of the French Succession War, but it most definitely had an effect on it.

With this distraction, the Polish offensive against rebels in Bohemia and German princes on the Rhine was cancelled. Newly-crowned Valdemar decided that time for peace has come in 1614, after Paris fell to the Huguenot forces. The following Treaty of Rome brought an end to a very bloody war which ravaged France and Germany alike.

The results were largely inconclusive in some areas. Bavaria was now the only Catholic German power of any significance, but it managed to annex some smaller principalities, so the hopes for an unified Protestant Germany came too early. Holy Roman Empire still "existed", but it was even more nominal then before. Aragon and Castille returned to pre-war borders, with Phillip II still brooding over the failure of reunification of Spain and the Castillians still wary over the hated Hapsburgs in Aragon.

What the treaty did achieve was the general calming down in Europe and decrease of religious tensions. It also broke French power for many years to come. French possessions in Italy were now an independant Kingdom of Italy (how ever loose and unstable), headed by Louis I Guise. Huguenot faction triumphed in the rest of France, and Henri IV (more rash and more Protestant then in the real world, but still a capable politician) established the Bourbon dynasty. Both France and Italy were now looking with interest at North America, but Italy would have some problems getting there - Lisbon Alliance holds the Straits of Gibraltar pretty well, as Portugal controls Tangiers and Castille controls Gibraltar itself.
 
Btw - remember Amen's NES set in a world where the Byzantine Empire survived? IMHO, that alternate history was interesting, but not particularily plausible as many nations were essentially the same as in the real world as of 1914. If you want, I might be able to write up a (brief) scenario for a more realistic (IMO) "Tamerlane's Empire" world.

Amen, are you interested?
 
Nice work das :). However I got a bit confused sometimes who is fighting for whom, where... What about making a small map covering the nations involved? Just as a reference.

Btw: SKILORD wrote a great story about an AH with the Mongols conquering the entire world.

Link: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=87628
 
In Stains they don't necesarrily conquer the whole world, they simply hit the world a lot harder, the purpose of Stains was not to make AH, really, rather it was about faith and Christianity.

EQ actually talked to me for a while about the TL, and we saw it going either with the Scots beating back the Mongols and saving Britain or with the Mongols basically taking over the Old World and splitting it into Mongol Princedoms and with the people I mentioned as leaving for Vinland heading off to America and starting their own sizable kingdom with Iron working and scientific dedication and with Christianity sweeping through the Mongol Empires.
 
tossi, I think I posted the sides in the French Sucession War somewhere.

Anyhow:
French Huguenots (southwest of France and Normandy with Brittany), England, Castille, Netherlands, Portugal, German Protestants, Denmark-Norway and (later on) Russia
versus
French Catholics (rest of France and French holdings in Italy), Aragon, Jagiellon Empire (uh... Poland-Lithuania-Bohemia-Austria-Hungary), German Catholics, the Papal States, Venice and Sweden.
 
@das

Be my guest.:)

A scenario:

What if Attila sacked Rome? The papacy wouldn't have been powerful in Rome. The seat of Christianity would have shifted to Constantinople, then when the Turks sacked it, the seat of all Christianity would have shifted to Moscow. BUT, with the rise of Stalin, theseat would have moved somewhere else...
 
Uh, will the Turks still take Constantinople if that happens? Will Moscow still be founded, and will it still rise to importance? Will Stalin be even born?
 
A challenge - try to (plausibly) get the Papal States of America (not neccessarily the same territory as United States of America, maybe in Argentina or something).

Amen - I believe that after giving some more thought to it, I believe I could salvage not only the five original "old empires" (Mongolia, Byzantine, Zulu, Spain and Portugal) but also Qing China, Mameluke and Holy Roman empires AT THE LEAST. Maybe the Mughals as well.

And another thing about your scenario - the center doesn't have to run away from Stalin. Do you know that at some point the Patriarch of Moscow almost CANONIZED Stalin? Btw, suppose he did, it would be very interesting indeed...
 
das said:
A challenge - try to (plausibly) get the Papal States of America (not neccessarily the same territory as United States of America, maybe in Argentina or something).

It's plausible, Ecuador was a sattelite nation of the Papal States, so a small tweaking of the treaty would create either a proper extension of Papal lands (and therefore Italian lands) or a new nation of the Ecuadorian Papal State.
 
Yes, but that will require the Papacy to be moved there to make it more proper Papal States of America. Perhaps after Rome is added into Italy? Really interesting as to how will that effect South American politics, especially as Peru is unlikely to go to war with the Pope.
 
I agree. It'd also be interesting to see the Papal reactions to things like the breakup of the USCA or the Peru-Bolivia Union.
 
yopure all forgetting- Atilla would have never sacked Rome- he woudl have sacked ravenna- but Rome was no longer truelly important, or rich by that point in time.
 
Attila might have sacked Rome for it's symbolism. It was the jewel of the world, even in it's dilapidated last days. And heck, as long as he's marching to Ravenna, he may as well make a day's ride to Rome, right?;)
 
by that time, constantinoiple had firmlly grasped the title of the jewel fo the world (Rome wouldnt again haver such a title 'till St. peters basillica in the Vatican was completed- as i woudl say it safelly takes the cake as beign not only the most impressive cathedral in the world, bu tperhap sth emost spectculer building undertaken during th emiddle ages and renaissance in the entire world- the thing is comparable to the pyramids in size after all...))
 
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