Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!

[Jason The King]

yah, too bad we can't ever say anything about rome without getting ridiculed. ah well.

 

[das]

I do believe that there were some Phoenicean colonies in Iberia before the Punic Wars. Why the hell won't Carthage just pick them up?

 

[aaminion00]

I've pretty much lost all interest in NES.

But I do have this one idea I've been going over in my mind.. alternative history type thing.

The basic premise is that Arab traders discover the new world before Columbus. They get in a conflict with a central american tribe, and quickly overrun it using firearms. They quickly establish contact with the Aztecs. Amazed by their riches, they conduct petty trade. Eventually the firearms make their way to the Aztecs (and soon after, the Inca), in exchange for large amounts of gold. Sattisfied, the Arab traders establish a small outpost there and prepare for a return to Al-Andalus.

The consequences of this meeting are far-reaching. Firearms become wide-spread among the central and south american civilizations, as does disease. Immediatly the foreigners are blamed and slaugheterd, save for one ship which manages to escape back to Dar-Al-Islam, laddened with gold. From there, Islamic interest is quickly gained due to the riches and prospect of fighting with unbelievers. Meanwhile, a few decades later a noble by the name of Cristopher Columbus discovers the new world for the Europeans...

I haven't come up with everything else. I just know the Byzantines and Romans somehow survive as well, along with the Jews, and that it all leads up to a big World War with the UFTS (United Fascist Turkic States)...

 

[Amenhotep7]

That's real interesting, minion.

To make it even more interesting, perhaps contact with the North American tribes as well? Iroquois Infantrymen?

 

[Amenhotep7]

I also had another idea. What if the Byzantine Empire was able to reconquer much of the Roman empire? With a reinvigorated Roman Empire, what would have happened?

 

[Xen]

@Jason; heh, this was about carthage and the itallian states. I'm not limited to simply Rome in my looking for historical accuracy, if an NES is based on it.

@Das; Carthaginian "ciontrol: of the area before the punic wars was based on allainces with the native peoples, centered around a few tradeing ports; the ancient/middle ages/age of sail equivilent of a permanent Ambassadorial building

 

[Xen]

Oh, BTW, Xen, there was no predetermined historical destiny for Italy to rise up to dominate the Med, as you seem to think. It was a combination of luck and skill that brought the Romans to power, luck especially. There is not reason to think that it might have gone on with no Rome at all.

A)its absurdlly mlre likelly that Rome would have NEVER come to power at all; i dont deny that for second; IMO., its fa rmore likelly that the Etruscan egue would have simply become hegemon of the area.

B)nor do i deny the luck and circumstance to led to med domination of Rome

C)however, one cannot deny that italy itself was geaded for centrilization under someone, ever since the Etruscan leuge was formed, and they started the entire trend.

 

[North King]

Xen, I am quite aware that Italy was likely to be centralized, at least the middle part of it (The south and the north are a bigger question). However, the question is, what was the probability of extending beyond Italy? In my scenario, Phyrrus just happens to be a good general as well ( ), and defeats the Samnites, setting them back years, and hence making Italian domination of the Med impossible. This paves the way for surviving Hellistenic Empires, and all that results from that.

Taking it further, if I were to before using it ina C3C scen. or NES, I would have a status quo until Islam rises to be the dominant power in the world. Europe never had the chance since they did not have the science and technology of Rome imposed upon them; the center of civilization was the Middle East, India, and China...

 

[Xen]

out side itally? not a great deal, though the Etrucans did have a good deal of cities in the area od the Po river valley; wihtout a waring Rome to distrb thier southern front, thie rnorthen forces could have been more well placed to defend agiasnt the Guals...

 

[North King]

However, the Samnites, fresh from their victory and looking to expand their nation more, might make some trouble...

 

[Xen]

ro which victory do you speak? (I had allways asusmed that the reason for Romes non coming into as a major indipendent power wa sbecause it had never rebelled in the firt place, htough it sounds, perhaps mistakinlly, that you refer to a samnite victory over the Romans...)

 

[North King]

No, as I believe was stated in my original post ( Before you went on the Carthage-in-spain rant ) It was based on the Samnites defeating the Romans. That is the victory I am referring to.

 

[das]

Yeah. Samnite DID beat Romans up, they were quite fearsome warriors and invented the "chessboard" formation, so I guess that THEY could unite Italy and beat somebody else up.

What if Vercingetorix's rebellion was succesful?

What if Novgorod united Russia instead of Muscovy?

What if Genoa sold Corsica to Sardinia-Piedmont instead of selling it to France?

What if the Decabrists had suceeded (before anyone says that it was impossible, I would like to mention it that it would've been possible in case of better organization and cooperation)?

What if Napoleon had lost at Austerlitz?

What if a militaristic regime came to power in Germany instead of a fascist one?

What if all the Americans suddenly blew up (I actually found a timeline of that on a site somewhere)?

What if Americas were uninhabited until the Vikings came?

 

[Xen]

@Das; indeed, the samnites DID beat the Romans up, but the couldnt follow up on the victory for lack of man power, more then likelly

 

[das]

What if they, for some reason, had managed to exploit their success, then?

 

[Amenhotep7]

Let's stop the debate. I'll end it here:

Perhaps Rome would suffer a plague, reducing military capability, which led to a Samnite victory?

So there.

Anyways, I'm very intrigued by the "What if...Vercingetorix.' thing. What if Julius Caesar had been beaten back and the Gauls marched on to conquer much of the non-Romanized world? An ancient cold war?

 

[Xen]

cold wars only exist in modern times; in anything before, its basically just a period in between wars which will almost certianlyl breake out at some point in time

takefor exampel there around 3 "1000 years peace" agreements petween the Romans and Persians...

 

[das]

Yes. However under the "cold war", I believe, Amen meant a war-less period of tension. Which is pretty much the same, but "cold war" sounds cooler.

Why can't Gauls just conquer Italy? Meanwhile some provinces will rebel, some Egyptians and Persians will attack, and Roman Empire would collapse. Well, not much chances of that, but possible.

To liven this up alittle, three more detailed scenarios for your discussion and another list of PoDs... coming right up!

 

[das]

What if the French king had fled to Lousiana from the Revolution?

I doubt it would've affected the tide of war in Europe, but in America, there would be the Kingdom of Louisiana (probably it will work like this - many French immigrants would follow their king there, when the Republican French overrun Spain they request that Louisiana is granted to them, the Spanish agree, but the king and his followers rebel from the Spanish. Btw, to make this easier to mod if accepted, I will reduce the amount of South American nations by having San Martin die in the Spanish army). The French will have less war funds without being able to sell Louisiana, but they will still have a half of Haiti and sell it instead. So, if we suppose that the war in Europe goes the same way, French king will return to France and grant Louisiana independance under some troublesome relative just to send him away. UK meanwhile wins the War of 1812 without being distracted to New Orleans (Louisiana even enters the war on British side in the very end, but failed to make any territorial gains), and grabs parts of Maine, plus Minnesota and Michigan territories. Bolivar's rebellion created an independant Gran Columbia, which eventually grew to expand to all of Central America and to Peru. De La Plata remained Spanish, some believe this to be the only reason that prevetend Gran Columbia from falling apart.

Later on, when in 1836 the Texan Rebellion was near death, Texas pleaded for British help, asking for Dominion status. The British eagerly used the opportunity, and by 1839, Mexico surrendered unconditionaly after mass bombardment and several landings. Dominion of Texas gained Colorado and New Mexico, the British annexed Yucatan and California. However this distraction of forces prevented the Opium War from ever happening as the British choose to negotiate with the Chinese instead of attacking them. USA and Louisiana fought several inconclusive wars, while in Oklahoma, Louisiana and UK created an Indian (New World, ofcourse) nation.

Back to our Chinese friends, eventually a civil war occurs, when the Taiping forces overrun China. However, the promised equality does not come and China returns to isolation instead. Enraged (as trade with China DID bring some profits), the British, Russians, French and Prussians intervenne in 1869. The Taiping forces are crushed, and China is divided into protectorates - Russia gets Sinkiang, Mongolia and Manchuria, British get Korea and southeastern coast plus Tibet, the French get the southwest, while the northeastern China Proper, including Beijing, went to Prussia. However, heavy resistance continued in most of China, and actual control is, for the exclusion of Russia's, only in the coastlines (and Russia too has much trouble in Manchuria) - the rest is in anarchy.

In 1871, the Prussians have invaded France, but suffered large casualties as the French have perfected the machine gun from the times of the Taiping War. Fighting degenerates into a trench war in westmost Lorraine-Alsace Eventually, however, the Prussians ally with the Americans and blockade France - UK lets it go when it is promised that France is not completely destroyed as a great power, and accepts the bribe of the French Algieria. French tire out, and the workers rebel, declaring the French Commune. Prussians crush the regular French forces in 1873, and the French communist government ceded whole Lorraine-Alsace and Morocco to France, Tunisia, Nice and Savoy to Italy (which entered the war by then), Algieria to UK, and Caribbean possessions to USA (oh, and note that no Civil War happens and gradual emancipation is declared in 1876, as Lincoln was never elected president, having died in one of the wars with Louisiana. Thus, secession is still constitutional).

Russia eventually does abolish serfdom, just as in the real history, and Duma also appeared. Luckily for Russia, gold was discovered in Alaska in 1886, causing a (limited) gold rush there, followed by analogical ones in British territory in the Greater British Columbia (British Columbia+Alta and Baja California). Russo-Japanese war in 1899 (result - overwhelming Russian victory and annexation of entire Japan as Japan never opened up and was horribly outdated) nearly caused a Russo-British one, but it was avoided and Russia ceded the two southern islands to UK in exchange for neutrality.

USA continued on its policy of acquiring the Carribean Sea. This led to a war with Spain, with Germany on American side. This ended with the American acquisition of Haiti (lol, it got in the way), Puerto-Rico and Cuba, while Germany took the Philippines.

Despite the best hopes of many governments across the world, France did not collapse and counter-revolution failed. French Commune soon expanded into Spain and Portugal, and in the best spirits of internationalism declared the West European Commune, annexing the two nations. De La Plata declared an independance, becoming a Jesuit Dictatorship.

War is coming, and though the sides are not yet picked as the world enters the 20th Century, they soon will be. For now, diplomacy continues as usual, but soon it might be extended into WAR!!! (tm)

 

[das]

And here is yet another scenario. What if the Western Civilization had never came to be? In other words - what if the Hittites had invaded the Mycenae instead of Babylon (along the way they would also wipe out Troy, and I doubt there is much the disunited Myceneans could do against the Hittites). So after all the Hittite and Illyrian invasions, what emerges is not the Greece we all know and love, but yet another "ancient middle eastern"-style nation - if any nation at all. Also, if you believe in that Eneus stuff, then Romans don't appear neither.

In 0 AD, as some would later say, a Jewish boy named Jeshua was born in Judea, which just happened to be a province (albeit rather autonomous) of the mighty Persian Empire. It stretches from Illyria (Dalmatia) to the River of Hindus, and is involved in a three-side on-and-off war between Persian, Chinese and the new Indian Empire. Alliances are being switched constantly, and all the nations invite the nomads to attack their enemies. However, neither side is capable of winning.

In Africa, Persian Empire does not go much farther then Egypt. The rest of North Africa is ruled by the Carthaginians, as are all the islands in the Western Mediterranean, and some Atlantic islands (the Azores, the Canarys...), and as is a pretty large section of West Africa coastline. While Carthage is triumphant on the sea, in the land they are often repulsed by the Gaullic Empire formed by Vercingetorix the Great, who managed, using Carthage's trading posts as an "outer threat", to unite the Gaelic clans into an empire which includes Gaul itself and Iberia and Italia. In Britannia, a similar kingdom exists, united by a real outer threat - the Gauls. Germannic tribes are not united yet.

In the far, far East, the Chinese Empire's technology is advancing, stimulated by the war. China itself too is advancing, having consumed Koguryo and even the distant Nippon, while to the west it fights the Indians, though Indochinese local population resists against both armies heavily.

Back to Judea, the boy named Jeshua has created a religion. But it is not the Christianity from our world, neither did Jeshua die yet. It is a violent religion with a holy war to free Judea in mind, and disturbingly many join it. For the first time since Jews were "liberated" by the Persians, a rebellion in Judea seems likely...