North King
blech
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@Amen-The (Western) Empire would have fallen to pieces once Belisarius died.
Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Why? If Belisaurus leaves a strong enough army, and a system for determining an heir, then there should be no reason that the Roman Empire couldn't have enjoyed a few more centurues, maybe more.North King said:
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
*GROAN*
Can some moderator split out this thread? This thread is for discussing ideas for new NESes. But at the moment, it's Xen discussing Ancient Rome.
New thread, people. Once an idea is firm, it gets its own thread.
Can some moderator split out this thread? This thread is for discussing ideas for new NESes. But at the moment, it's Xen discussing Ancient Rome.
New thread, people. Once an idea is firm, it gets its own thread.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
@Erik
No. This is the thread for discussing ideas. It allows many people to come together and collaborate, our greatest history buffs to theorize what might have been, and our greatest modders to execute these exemplary ideas into exemplary NESes. As such, it requires great historical discussion, and if that means Xen goes on a romanrant*, then so be it.
*- I coined a new term!
No. This is the thread for discussing ideas. It allows many people to come together and collaborate, our greatest history buffs to theorize what might have been, and our greatest modders to execute these exemplary ideas into exemplary NESes. As such, it requires great historical discussion, and if that means Xen goes on a romanrant*, then so be it.
*- I coined a new term!
Erik Mesoy
Core Tester / Intern
I hope that was joking. You do realize that you and Xen make up half the thread between you, right?
I propose splitting "Alternate Roman History" into a separate thread, atleast.
Amenhotep7
Spartiate
Am not joking. NK, Insane Panda, Erez, das, Xen, me, you, Amon Savag, all have posted in this here thread.
North King
blech
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Actually, postwise, it's das, Amen, Xen, me in top contending places. But that doesn't matter.
Coming soon: Alexander recovers from his fever and attacks the Roman Empire.
Coming soon: Alexander recovers from his fever and attacks the Roman Empire.
Insane_Panda
Deity
I've posted like twice before, and none of its really been any good contributions, just praise. 
blackheart
unenlightened
How about an alternate time where China has succesfully repelled the Mongols, if not, then the Qing?
Der Sensenmann
Lasombra Stalker
Viking or Magyar Europe might be good (860 Viking attack captured Byzantium, Magyars won Battle of Lechfeld)
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
blackheart said:
I second this!
why would the visigoths be angry- the portion sof Spain werent reclaime dby belisarius, they were reclaimed under LiberiusAmenhotep7 said:
and as for the franks- i woudl thinkt htat they would be more neutral, or even intimidated by a commandder who did so much with so little
North King
blech
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Warman17 said:
Me like. Let's start.
das
Regeneration In Process
LOL, maybe we should create a separate "Roman Alt History NESes" thread.
Close - but not close enough. And Axum, before moving to Ethiopia, was in Sudan.
WOW. An entire century. Problem is, Roman imperial history was sort of longer...
Uh? Then what did?
Pavel I was succesful until his death too. So what?
Problem is, they had not much influence. They were not sufficeintly large to make a difference. Face it - by then, Christianity dominated Western Europe.
Amen, I already have written down a scenario about practically the same on another thread. will post when I find it.
Etruscans... Don't like them, because I know NOTHING about them.
Close - but not close enough. And Axum, before moving to Ethiopia, was in Sudan.
WOW. An entire century. Problem is, Roman imperial history was sort of longer...
Uh? Then what did?
Pavel I was succesful until his death too. So what?
Problem is, they had not much influence. They were not sufficeintly large to make a difference. Face it - by then, Christianity dominated Western Europe.
Amen, I already have written down a scenario about practically the same on another thread. will post when I find it.
Etruscans... Don't like them, because I know NOTHING about them.
das
Regeneration In Process
Uh... what 860 attack? Unless you means the "Varangian" Vikings, who by then were already assimilated by the Slavic population. But even if it suceeded, how would they hold on to it?
---
Meanwhile...
In 533, Belisarius, one of the greatest Byzantine and Roman general ever, utterly crushed the Vandal kingdom in North Africa. From there, in 535, after a triumphal parade back in Constantinople, Belisarius landed in Sicily and quickly captured the island. In a hard campaign on Italy itself, Belisarius captured Naples and Rome itself. After fending back a ferocious Ostrogoth assault on Rome, Belisarius pressed on and captured Ravenna by 540. The Ostrogoth nobles offered their capitulation... if Belisarius was to become their emperor. Belisarius was too loyal to Justinian to accept that - despite the obvious lack of confidence from Justinian and his clear provocation of Belisarius.
So, lets suppose that sometimes during the Italian Campaign, something snapped. Belisarius realized that he was being played for a fool by Justinian, and decides that loyalty is loyalty, but enough is enough. In 540, Belisarius is crowned the "Italian Emperor". He then routed several Byzantine armies, with many troops defecting to him as well. This allowed him to declare himself the Western Roman Emperor. Soon after, he also secured Carthage again. Justinian refused to acknowledge Belisarius, but could not do anything about it, especially as the Persians struck yet again.
(Note: Belisarius controls ALL of the former Lombard and Vandal territories, minus some Alpine lands given to the Franks in exchange for their ally. Thus, Provence and all of Dalmatia are his, as well as those lands captured by the Byzantines).
This new Italian (as to acknowledge the fact that apart from the Romans, there were also a lot of "non-Latin Italians") or Western Roman Empire was very compact, as to avoid overstretching it, yet efficient. It allied with the Franks, fended back the Lombards (who due to this chose to migrate into the Balkans instead of Italia) and pitted different Visgoth factions against each other to conquer parts of South Iberia. This empire endured a lot.
The Franks were not as interested in fighting the Visgoths as in OTL, though they still acquired Acquitaine with time. Rather, they expanded to the northeast, clashing with the Saxons early on. Eventually, after Clothar's death, the overstretched Frankish Empire was divided into Neustria (NW), Austrasia (NE), Burgundia (SE) and Acquitania (SW). They maintained a Holy Roman Empire-type alliance, yet too themselves begun to somehow fragment (developing feudalism).
The Muslims had to face a Byzantine Empire which was not as overstretched and as poor. They still won, though, taking the Holy Land, Syria and Egypt, yet the Christian world was saved as the Byzantines fought back a maritime siege of Constantinople and the Italians (also called Romans as opposed to Byzantines) defeated the Arab expansion at Leptis Magna in 697. Arab Caliphate, thus, turned to southward expansion down the Nile and the Red Sea and eastward expansion, conquering parts of India and clashing with the Chinese (like in OTL, only here the Muslims expand even further east, facing the Tibetians as well).
Visgothia still somehow survived, thus, though still fragmented and losing much of its Mediterranean coast to Italia.
British Isles are the same as in OTL.
Avars, Lombards and Balkan Bulgars all invaded and seized a lot of the Balkans, including even parts of Greece (Avaria takes Albania, Serbia and Macedonnia (the real one AND the Yugoslav one), Bulgaris takes Eastern Bulgaria and Wallachia, Lombards are in between).
Khazars, due to the weaker Arabs, are still more Caucasus-centric, their capital is still somewhere in Caucasus and they hold much of Transcaucasia.
This "European Order" lasted until 800 AD, when the Vikings struck.
das
Regeneration In Process
800-1000 AD. The Viking Age.
The Vikings behaved somewhat different the in OTL, due to the absence of a Carolingian Empire. They did not conquer Normandy, though they still burned down Paris (instead, a Viking became a Duke of Brittany, and some of them controlled the Frisian Islands for a short while). The Viking Storm hit Visgothia very hard, though, as a large army of Vikings burned down the nation's capital and gathered tribute until finally being forced out of their based in Lisboa in 866, after twenty years that crippled Visgothia for the rest of the century.
But the most long-standing Viking achievement was the birth of two brand new states: Kievan Rus (just like in OTL) and Viking Ireland, governed by an assimilated dynasty in Dublin. Viking Ireland (AKA Norseire) became a base of operations for further raids on Brittany and against Visgothia and Acquitania. Norseirean sailsmen reached as far as Iceland, and have heard of another island called Greenland, as well as distant myths of something even further west.
Neustria, Astrusia, Acquitania and Burgundia are still alive and "well". As they are not as overstretched as Charlemagne's empire, each one is able to take care of its own troubles... but is unable of reuniting the Frankish Empire, it would seem. Italian Empire suffered little from the Vikings, though the Berber nomads, recently converted to Islam, almost took Carthage. Italia is slightly stagnating, some say... Venice is a city-state republic under VERY NOMINAL Italian control (like in OTL, but with Italia instead of the Byzantines). The Pope does not control any real territory, but still has a lot of authority.
Visgothia is ruled by an almost-powerless king, who is a pawn in the power struggle between two main feudal houses - House Leovid and House Swanterhild, controlled by Duke of Lusitania and Duke of Asturia respectively. The reason that the king has ANY powers left AT ALL, even nominal ones, is that the two Houses are in a bitter struggle, allowing the more capable monarchs to play them off against each other.
Saxonnia and Bavaria are in control of parts of central Germany (east of Rhine, west of Oder). Further east, Sorbic Slavic tribes are dominant, and further still, there are Baltic Peoples. And then, there is the Kievan Rus...
In Pannonia, there is a new rising power - the newly-Orthodox Christian kingdom of Greater Mordovia, founded by Svyatopluk (historically a Mordovian duke who fought off Carolingian armies until being crushed by the Magyars).
Byzantine Empire is definitely recovering, having retaken the Avars and converted Bulgars and Lombards to Orthodox Christianity. In the "eastern front", it regained much of Syria and Armenia, while its Khazar allies are now threatening and occasionally attacking Persia. This was helped out by the recent break-up of the Arab Caliphate. It was divided into the Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt, Sudan and the Holy Land, the (remaining) Abbasid Caliphate in Iraq and Arabia, the Zanzibari Emirate (in East Africa - you will probably have to edit in the island of Zanzibar on Jason-NK map) and the Parsi (sometimes called "Righteous") Shiite Caliphate in Persia and parts of India. Neither is particularily stable yet, but each has many possibilities.
Finally, we have the Magyars, Khazars and Kievan Rus. The Magyars still tried to conquer Pannonia, but as Moravia was alot stronger, it fended the Magyars back. Magyars were also raiding Khazar and Rus territory, but eventually, Svyatoslav II crushed them in a victorious campaign. Magyars scattered, some of them later serving as mercenaries in Khazaria. As of now, Kievan Rus has recently been converted to Orthodox Christianity... Khazaria avoided a serious clash with the Kievan Rus, as it never switched its center of power further north, as in OTL. It is a fairly stable and prospering state (fortified by the Mandate of Heavens and a well-trained standing army), even though the Caucasian Avars (future Chechens, interestingly enough) are being rather troublesome. Khazaria is the Byzantine Empire's only trustable ally. It holds a small strip of the Black Sea coast, including Crimea, some territory stretching to the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea and including the Astrakhan/Itil area, and, ofcourse, Caucasia.
The Vikings behaved somewhat different the in OTL, due to the absence of a Carolingian Empire. They did not conquer Normandy, though they still burned down Paris (instead, a Viking became a Duke of Brittany, and some of them controlled the Frisian Islands for a short while). The Viking Storm hit Visgothia very hard, though, as a large army of Vikings burned down the nation's capital and gathered tribute until finally being forced out of their based in Lisboa in 866, after twenty years that crippled Visgothia for the rest of the century.
But the most long-standing Viking achievement was the birth of two brand new states: Kievan Rus (just like in OTL) and Viking Ireland, governed by an assimilated dynasty in Dublin. Viking Ireland (AKA Norseire) became a base of operations for further raids on Brittany and against Visgothia and Acquitania. Norseirean sailsmen reached as far as Iceland, and have heard of another island called Greenland, as well as distant myths of something even further west.
Neustria, Astrusia, Acquitania and Burgundia are still alive and "well". As they are not as overstretched as Charlemagne's empire, each one is able to take care of its own troubles... but is unable of reuniting the Frankish Empire, it would seem. Italian Empire suffered little from the Vikings, though the Berber nomads, recently converted to Islam, almost took Carthage. Italia is slightly stagnating, some say... Venice is a city-state republic under VERY NOMINAL Italian control (like in OTL, but with Italia instead of the Byzantines). The Pope does not control any real territory, but still has a lot of authority.
Visgothia is ruled by an almost-powerless king, who is a pawn in the power struggle between two main feudal houses - House Leovid and House Swanterhild, controlled by Duke of Lusitania and Duke of Asturia respectively. The reason that the king has ANY powers left AT ALL, even nominal ones, is that the two Houses are in a bitter struggle, allowing the more capable monarchs to play them off against each other.
Saxonnia and Bavaria are in control of parts of central Germany (east of Rhine, west of Oder). Further east, Sorbic Slavic tribes are dominant, and further still, there are Baltic Peoples. And then, there is the Kievan Rus...
In Pannonia, there is a new rising power - the newly-Orthodox Christian kingdom of Greater Mordovia, founded by Svyatopluk (historically a Mordovian duke who fought off Carolingian armies until being crushed by the Magyars).
Byzantine Empire is definitely recovering, having retaken the Avars and converted Bulgars and Lombards to Orthodox Christianity. In the "eastern front", it regained much of Syria and Armenia, while its Khazar allies are now threatening and occasionally attacking Persia. This was helped out by the recent break-up of the Arab Caliphate. It was divided into the Fatimid Caliphate in Egypt, Sudan and the Holy Land, the (remaining) Abbasid Caliphate in Iraq and Arabia, the Zanzibari Emirate (in East Africa - you will probably have to edit in the island of Zanzibar on Jason-NK map) and the Parsi (sometimes called "Righteous") Shiite Caliphate in Persia and parts of India. Neither is particularily stable yet, but each has many possibilities.
Finally, we have the Magyars, Khazars and Kievan Rus. The Magyars still tried to conquer Pannonia, but as Moravia was alot stronger, it fended the Magyars back. Magyars were also raiding Khazar and Rus territory, but eventually, Svyatoslav II crushed them in a victorious campaign. Magyars scattered, some of them later serving as mercenaries in Khazaria. As of now, Kievan Rus has recently been converted to Orthodox Christianity... Khazaria avoided a serious clash with the Kievan Rus, as it never switched its center of power further north, as in OTL. It is a fairly stable and prospering state (fortified by the Mandate of Heavens and a well-trained standing army), even though the Caucasian Avars (future Chechens, interestingly enough) are being rather troublesome. Khazaria is the Byzantine Empire's only trustable ally. It holds a small strip of the Black Sea coast, including Crimea, some territory stretching to the eastern coast of the Caspian Sea and including the Astrakhan/Itil area, and, ofcourse, Caucasia.
Warman17 said:
while I'd liek to see an NES where the Etruscans becoem th edominat power it italy, because they had a compl;etelly different forign policy then Rome, they wouldnt have burned Rome down, or made all its people slaves- the city was located on an Etruscan holy site, after all- buring down the city would be an atrocity agiast the gods
some peoiple just say "rm eis Rome" when it moves to the eastern area of its empires, and eventually losses all italy, so sush on the Sudan topicdas said:
indeed- but I only said ti was really stable for the periods of those several emperors
[/quote]
Uh? Then what did?
[/quote]
Dunno- can you repeat the question?
read below
though the fact that he did what he did, soldidifed a real presence of these religions into the time of charlemagne (and well, well beyond), giving his shot reign is somthing clear enough, IMO to show if he had lived his life fully, he may have lead a successful re-birth.
well, i'm a polytheist, so from my stand point, his efforts worked just fine
- id imagine mos tof those "neo pagan" dickheads, fro all that i hate them, woudl probabley, as well as all the other true polytheists runnign around in europe- do a search, alot of them have websites, why? no idea, but they do,a nd I'm not going to argue with itSimilar threads
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