das
Regeneration In Process
Like in OTL, so far. However, there probably won't be any Moghuls. There is a chance of parts of India being conquered by the Timurids, but IMHO its unlikely.
Alternate History NESes; Spout some ideas!
- Thread starter Amenhotep7
- Start date
Grandmaster
Deity
The War That Could Have Been
In our timeline, the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 was an accord signed by the United States, Great Britain, France, Italy, and Japan, limiting the tonnage and number of battleships in the navies of the signatory powers. Many historians have called the Washington Conference a failure because the treaty limiting battleship size failed to prevent the Second World War. This is true; Washington did not stop WWII from occuring. But it wasn't supposed to. What it DID prevent is a war that far fewer people ever give thought to... the Great Anglo-American War of 1938.
Let us imagine that the Washington Treaty had never been signed. How would the tabling of this seemingly unimportant treaty have effected the outcome of history?
Timeline:
The Washington Conference: 1921
November 11, 1921: Delegates from the United States, Great Britain, Japan, Italy, and France gather in Washington, DC, for the International Conference on Arms Limitation.
December 12, 1921: American, French, and Italian come to an initial agreement on the terms of the treaty; Britain and Japan disagree, as the proposed tonnage restrictions would force them to scrap several of their own battleships.
December 15, 1921: The Japanese delegation walks out of the Conference.
December 17, 1921: The Conference is terminated; no agreement is reached.
The Naval Arms Race: 1922-37
1922-23: Germany, Japan, Italy, the United States, and Great Britain commence massive and expensive naval armament programs.
1923-30: The navies of the great powers grow increasingly larger as each nation races to produce as many new battleships as possible. Battleships grow increasingly larger, faster, and more powerful as the naval powers compete to produce the mightiest capital ships afloat.
September 6, 1931: Japan introduces the worlds first Super-Battleship, the IJN Fuji, a mighty warship more than twice the size of any capital ship to ever come before. All other warships are rendered obsolescent.
1931-34: All major naval powers emulate the Fuji; the Super-Battleship becomes the new standard of naval power.
1934-37: Tensions rise in the Atlantic as the United States and Great Britain compete for naval dominance.
The Central American Affair: 1938
August 4, 1938: British military intervention in Nicaragua; Royal Marines, supported by a large fleet of Super-Battleships, land near Bluefields, Nicaragua, to enforce the payment of that nations debts to Great Britain.
August 5, 1938: American forces in Panama are placed on high alert; a fleet of American Super-Battleships and battlecruisers is ordered to redeploy to Panama.
August 19, 1938: Royal Marines capture Managua; President Roosevelt officially condemns British intervention in the affairs of the Western Hemisphere. The US fleet enters Nicaraguan waters, passing the British fleet. HMS Lionheart, the British flagship, fires warning flares over the bow of USS Arkansas, the American flagship.
August 21, 1938: British warships enter Panamanian waters; the American fleet intercepts the British at sea. USS Maine fires warning shots over the bow of HMS Lionheart; Lionheart returns fire with flares.
August 25, 1938: Citing the Monroe Doctrine, President Roosevelt requests that Great Britain withdraw from Nicaragua; Prime Minister Chamberlain refuses. Three US Super-Battleships are deployed off the coast of Bluefields, Nicaragua, the major port supplying the Royal Marines.
August 26, 1938: USS Maine, one of the three Super-Battleships off the coast of Nicaragua, mysteriously explodes in the middle of the night. All 1,600 crewmen go down with the ship.
August 27, 1938: American newspapers and newsreels announce the sinking of the Maine; rumors quickly spread that she was torpedoed by a British submarine.
August 29, 1938: Faced with mounting pressure from Congress, the War Department, and the American public, President Roosevelt issues an ultimatum demanding that Britain withdraw all land and naval forces from Nicaragua, Belize, and the Bahamas; the US fleet is stationed off the coast of Jamaica, within firing range of Kingston.
August 31, 1938: In an address to the House of Commons, Prime Minister Chamberlain refuses Roosevelts demands to withdraw from Central America and the Caribbean. American warships fire on British military installations in Kingston, Jamaica.
September 1, 1938: President Roosevelt addresses a joint session of Congress, stating that since the previous morning a state of war had existed with the British Empire, and asking Congress to make an official declaration of war.
The Anglo-American War: 1938
September 3, 1938: The British and Americans fleets engage in the first large-scale naval battles since the Great War. The majority of the Royal Navy is redeployed from its bases in Britain and Africa to the Atlantic; the US Atlantic Fleet assembles in the North Atlantic.
September-November, 1938: The British and American navies wage war in the North Atlantic and Caribbean. US Marines supported by air and naval power land in Belize, the Bahamas, and Jamaica; American forces repel a British attack on Panama.
November 28, 1938: Roosevelt receives the Norfolk Communiqué, in which Adolf Hitler (who sees an opportunity to eliminate a rival in Europe) offers to secretly join the war against Britain. Roosevelt accepts Hitlers offer.
November 30, 1938: German air forces strike the British fleet in harbor at Portsmouth and Scapa Flow, and strike RAF airfields and radar installations throughout southern England. British naval power is eliminated in the North Sea; RAF Fighter Command is rendered ineffectual. German land forces preemptively invade France.
December 1, 1938: The Admiralty orders a number of British warships in transit to the Atlantic theater to return to Britain.
December 2, 1938: Bad weather, poor communication, and ineffectual leadership and poor planning by the Admirals in London cause the home-bound ships to be caught in a joint attack by German submarines and American surface warships; the makeshift task force is destroyed.
December 7, 1938: Siding with her German allies, Italy declares war on Great Britain; Italian naval and air forces strike British military installations on Malta and Gibraltar.
December 1938-March 1939: The American, British, German, and Italian fleets continue to wage war in the Atlantic, Caribbean, and Mediterranean. The German invasion of France bogs down; all advances, and the capture of Nancy and Reims, are achieved at great cost.
March 16, 1939: American heavy bombers strike the British naval base in Bermuda; several battleships are sunk, along with troop transports filled with British and Australian soldiers headed for the invasion of Puerto Rico.
March 21, 1939: Japanese naval forces attack Hong Kong. Great Britain declares war on Japan.
March-June, 1939: The US Navy secures its dominance in the Caribbean and Central Atlantic. The Germans continue to advance in eastern France at great cost in both men and material; the French take unbearable losses to hold back the German offensive. Troyes falls to the Wehrmacht. Many conservative German generals begin to believe the war could be won more easily without Hitler. Japan overruns the British and French colonies in China and southeast Asia. Fearing a Japanese invasion of India, a coalition of British colonists, British and Indian officers, the Muslim League, and the Congress Party begin secretly drafting a provisional constitution for an independent India.
June 13, 1939: A taskforce of US warships enters the Bay of Biscay. French forces badly needed on the German front are diverted west to meet a perceived American threat.
July 1, 1939: German generals led by Erich von Mannstein assassinate Hitler with a bomb during a General Staff meeting in Berlin. Influential Nazis and SS men are killed over the course of the day.
July 2, 1939: A provisional government is established, headed by von Mannstein. General von Stauffenberg becomes Secretary of State, Guderian Chief of the Army and Luftwaffe, and Doenitz Chief of the Navy.
July 4, 1939: American warships fire on French naval installations in Nantes. More French forces are removed from the eastern frontline to reinforce the western coast.
July 7, 1939: India declares its independence from Great Britain. A provisional government is established. Mohandas Gandhi becomes provisional President, Jawaharlal Nehru Prime Minister, Netajhi Bose Minister of War, and Sardar Patel Minister of State. The Nehru government immediately signs a neutral peace with Germany and Japan.
July 12, 1939: The French line crumbles. German forces surge west, falling just short of Paris. The US task force steams north, taking a position at the western entrance to the English Channel.
July 14, 1939: Paris falls to the German army. Roosevelt, secretly wishing to prevent German hegemony in Europe, offers France a conditional peace; both France and Germany accept the American proposal.
July 18, 1939: France surrenders conditionally to Germany and the United States. Alsace and Lorraine are ceded to Germany; France is stripped of her overseas empire.
July-Aug, 1939: The last remnants of the Royal Navy are defeated in a series of small battles in the English Channel.
August 6, 1939: German bombers strike London with incendiary bombs; much of the city is set ablaze. The Royal Family is evacuated by plane to Newfoudnland. In an emergency session of Parliament, Prime Minister Chamberlain states that Britain is defeated.
August 8, 1939: Great Britain surrenders unconditionally to the United States and Germany. Britain is stripped of her overseas empire; Northern Ireland is ceded to the Republic of Ireland, which had quietly backed the Germans and Americans. The British and French mandates in the Middle East are granted independence and unified as the Arab Republic. Severe restrictions are placed on the British military. Chamberlain resigns as Prime Minister.
The Continent of Europe: 1939-43
August 1939: The British general elections bring surprising results; the British Communist Party wins a near-majority of seats in Parliament. A coalition is formed with slightly more moderate Socialists, securing Parliament for the Communists. Harry Pollitt becomes Prime Minister.
September 1939: Prime Minister Pollitt, with the backing of the Communist majority in Parliament, abolishes the House of Lords and begins enacting major labor and legal reforms in Britain.
1939-40: The Soviet Union remains neutral in the European conflict, quietly building up its military and industry. Soviet influence expands into Poland and Finland through peaceful means. Realizing their army is obsolete in the face of the German war machine, Poland accepts Soviet aid in modernizing their military. Poland and the Soviet Union test their newly-reformed militaries by jointly invading the Baltic states. Stalin pressures Romania into ceding the province of Moldova.
1941-42: Joint German-American research leads to the develop of jet fighters, guided missiles, long-range jet bombers, and superior tanks. Britain, Poland, and the USSR form the Manchester Pact. Germany, Spain, Italy, Norway, and the United States form the Atlantic Treaty Organization; Japan signs a separate alliance with all ATO member nations.
1942-43: Joint Russo-British research allows the Communist powers to catch up to Germany and America in military technology.
The Continent of Asia: 1939-43
1939-40: Japan overruns most of eastern China. America negotiates a deal with Japan by which the Chinese Nationalists are able to establish an independent Chinese state in western China. The Nationalists, supported by America and Japan, turn against the Communists. The Communist army is destroyed and Mao is killed; the few remaining flee to Mongolia and establish a state under Soviet protection. The Republic of China is established.
1943: Soviet invasion of Persia and Afghanistan. Soviets conquer both nations and incorporate them into the USSR as the Soviet Socialist Republics of Iran and Afghanistan.
The American Continents: 1939-43
1941: US intervention on Hispaniola; US Marines land in Haiti and the Dominican Republic to put down Communist movements in both nations. Hispaniola annexed by United States. Nicaragua formally annexed by United States after military occupation since defeat of the Royal Marines at Managua.
Rising Tensions: 1943-45
1943-45: Tensions rise between the ATO and Manchester Pact as the alliances compete for influence throughout the world.
The Korean Affair: 1948-49
May 1, 1948: Communist rebels rise up against Japanese domination in Korea. The rebellion is centered around the city of Chongjin.
May-July, 1948: Japanese forces fight the Communist uprising in Korea; the Japanese are surprised by the quality and quantity of weapons available to the Koreans.
August-September, 1948: Japanese forces largely succeed in suppressing the Korean revolt. Fearing the revolt will be defeated, the Soviet Union steps up its support for the Korean Communists, evening risking providing direct air support for embattled Communist units with repainted Soviet aircraft.
September 16, 1948: A Soviet fighter-bomber painted with Korean markings is shot down over central Korea. The pilot bails out and is captured by a patrol of Japanese soldiers. Soviet support for the Korean uprising is revealed to the world.
September 1948-December 1948: Japan defeats the Korean Communists. Tensions rise along the Russo-Japanese border, and in Europe.
Map as of December 30, 1948:
I haven't ironed all the bugs out of the timeline yet, and I'm not sure if I'll make it an NES or not.
In our timeline, the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922 was an accord signed by the United States, Great Britain, France, Italy, and Japan, limiting the tonnage and number of battleships in the navies of the signatory powers. Many historians have called the Washington Conference a failure because the treaty limiting battleship size failed to prevent the Second World War. This is true; Washington did not stop WWII from occuring. But it wasn't supposed to. What it DID prevent is a war that far fewer people ever give thought to... the Great Anglo-American War of 1938.
Let us imagine that the Washington Treaty had never been signed. How would the tabling of this seemingly unimportant treaty have effected the outcome of history?
Timeline:
The Washington Conference: 1921
November 11, 1921: Delegates from the United States, Great Britain, Japan, Italy, and France gather in Washington, DC, for the International Conference on Arms Limitation.
December 12, 1921: American, French, and Italian come to an initial agreement on the terms of the treaty; Britain and Japan disagree, as the proposed tonnage restrictions would force them to scrap several of their own battleships.
December 15, 1921: The Japanese delegation walks out of the Conference.
December 17, 1921: The Conference is terminated; no agreement is reached.
The Naval Arms Race: 1922-37
1922-23: Germany, Japan, Italy, the United States, and Great Britain commence massive and expensive naval armament programs.
1923-30: The navies of the great powers grow increasingly larger as each nation races to produce as many new battleships as possible. Battleships grow increasingly larger, faster, and more powerful as the naval powers compete to produce the mightiest capital ships afloat.
September 6, 1931: Japan introduces the worlds first Super-Battleship, the IJN Fuji, a mighty warship more than twice the size of any capital ship to ever come before. All other warships are rendered obsolescent.
1931-34: All major naval powers emulate the Fuji; the Super-Battleship becomes the new standard of naval power.
1934-37: Tensions rise in the Atlantic as the United States and Great Britain compete for naval dominance.
The Central American Affair: 1938
August 4, 1938: British military intervention in Nicaragua; Royal Marines, supported by a large fleet of Super-Battleships, land near Bluefields, Nicaragua, to enforce the payment of that nations debts to Great Britain.
August 5, 1938: American forces in Panama are placed on high alert; a fleet of American Super-Battleships and battlecruisers is ordered to redeploy to Panama.
August 19, 1938: Royal Marines capture Managua; President Roosevelt officially condemns British intervention in the affairs of the Western Hemisphere. The US fleet enters Nicaraguan waters, passing the British fleet. HMS Lionheart, the British flagship, fires warning flares over the bow of USS Arkansas, the American flagship.
August 21, 1938: British warships enter Panamanian waters; the American fleet intercepts the British at sea. USS Maine fires warning shots over the bow of HMS Lionheart; Lionheart returns fire with flares.
August 25, 1938: Citing the Monroe Doctrine, President Roosevelt requests that Great Britain withdraw from Nicaragua; Prime Minister Chamberlain refuses. Three US Super-Battleships are deployed off the coast of Bluefields, Nicaragua, the major port supplying the Royal Marines.
August 26, 1938: USS Maine, one of the three Super-Battleships off the coast of Nicaragua, mysteriously explodes in the middle of the night. All 1,600 crewmen go down with the ship.
August 27, 1938: American newspapers and newsreels announce the sinking of the Maine; rumors quickly spread that she was torpedoed by a British submarine.
August 29, 1938: Faced with mounting pressure from Congress, the War Department, and the American public, President Roosevelt issues an ultimatum demanding that Britain withdraw all land and naval forces from Nicaragua, Belize, and the Bahamas; the US fleet is stationed off the coast of Jamaica, within firing range of Kingston.
August 31, 1938: In an address to the House of Commons, Prime Minister Chamberlain refuses Roosevelts demands to withdraw from Central America and the Caribbean. American warships fire on British military installations in Kingston, Jamaica.
September 1, 1938: President Roosevelt addresses a joint session of Congress, stating that since the previous morning a state of war had existed with the British Empire, and asking Congress to make an official declaration of war.
The Anglo-American War: 1938
September 3, 1938: The British and Americans fleets engage in the first large-scale naval battles since the Great War. The majority of the Royal Navy is redeployed from its bases in Britain and Africa to the Atlantic; the US Atlantic Fleet assembles in the North Atlantic.
September-November, 1938: The British and American navies wage war in the North Atlantic and Caribbean. US Marines supported by air and naval power land in Belize, the Bahamas, and Jamaica; American forces repel a British attack on Panama.
November 28, 1938: Roosevelt receives the Norfolk Communiqué, in which Adolf Hitler (who sees an opportunity to eliminate a rival in Europe) offers to secretly join the war against Britain. Roosevelt accepts Hitlers offer.
November 30, 1938: German air forces strike the British fleet in harbor at Portsmouth and Scapa Flow, and strike RAF airfields and radar installations throughout southern England. British naval power is eliminated in the North Sea; RAF Fighter Command is rendered ineffectual. German land forces preemptively invade France.
December 1, 1938: The Admiralty orders a number of British warships in transit to the Atlantic theater to return to Britain.
December 2, 1938: Bad weather, poor communication, and ineffectual leadership and poor planning by the Admirals in London cause the home-bound ships to be caught in a joint attack by German submarines and American surface warships; the makeshift task force is destroyed.
December 7, 1938: Siding with her German allies, Italy declares war on Great Britain; Italian naval and air forces strike British military installations on Malta and Gibraltar.
December 1938-March 1939: The American, British, German, and Italian fleets continue to wage war in the Atlantic, Caribbean, and Mediterranean. The German invasion of France bogs down; all advances, and the capture of Nancy and Reims, are achieved at great cost.
March 16, 1939: American heavy bombers strike the British naval base in Bermuda; several battleships are sunk, along with troop transports filled with British and Australian soldiers headed for the invasion of Puerto Rico.
March 21, 1939: Japanese naval forces attack Hong Kong. Great Britain declares war on Japan.
March-June, 1939: The US Navy secures its dominance in the Caribbean and Central Atlantic. The Germans continue to advance in eastern France at great cost in both men and material; the French take unbearable losses to hold back the German offensive. Troyes falls to the Wehrmacht. Many conservative German generals begin to believe the war could be won more easily without Hitler. Japan overruns the British and French colonies in China and southeast Asia. Fearing a Japanese invasion of India, a coalition of British colonists, British and Indian officers, the Muslim League, and the Congress Party begin secretly drafting a provisional constitution for an independent India.
June 13, 1939: A taskforce of US warships enters the Bay of Biscay. French forces badly needed on the German front are diverted west to meet a perceived American threat.
July 1, 1939: German generals led by Erich von Mannstein assassinate Hitler with a bomb during a General Staff meeting in Berlin. Influential Nazis and SS men are killed over the course of the day.
July 2, 1939: A provisional government is established, headed by von Mannstein. General von Stauffenberg becomes Secretary of State, Guderian Chief of the Army and Luftwaffe, and Doenitz Chief of the Navy.
July 4, 1939: American warships fire on French naval installations in Nantes. More French forces are removed from the eastern frontline to reinforce the western coast.
July 7, 1939: India declares its independence from Great Britain. A provisional government is established. Mohandas Gandhi becomes provisional President, Jawaharlal Nehru Prime Minister, Netajhi Bose Minister of War, and Sardar Patel Minister of State. The Nehru government immediately signs a neutral peace with Germany and Japan.
July 12, 1939: The French line crumbles. German forces surge west, falling just short of Paris. The US task force steams north, taking a position at the western entrance to the English Channel.
July 14, 1939: Paris falls to the German army. Roosevelt, secretly wishing to prevent German hegemony in Europe, offers France a conditional peace; both France and Germany accept the American proposal.
July 18, 1939: France surrenders conditionally to Germany and the United States. Alsace and Lorraine are ceded to Germany; France is stripped of her overseas empire.
July-Aug, 1939: The last remnants of the Royal Navy are defeated in a series of small battles in the English Channel.
August 6, 1939: German bombers strike London with incendiary bombs; much of the city is set ablaze. The Royal Family is evacuated by plane to Newfoudnland. In an emergency session of Parliament, Prime Minister Chamberlain states that Britain is defeated.
August 8, 1939: Great Britain surrenders unconditionally to the United States and Germany. Britain is stripped of her overseas empire; Northern Ireland is ceded to the Republic of Ireland, which had quietly backed the Germans and Americans. The British and French mandates in the Middle East are granted independence and unified as the Arab Republic. Severe restrictions are placed on the British military. Chamberlain resigns as Prime Minister.
The Continent of Europe: 1939-43
August 1939: The British general elections bring surprising results; the British Communist Party wins a near-majority of seats in Parliament. A coalition is formed with slightly more moderate Socialists, securing Parliament for the Communists. Harry Pollitt becomes Prime Minister.
September 1939: Prime Minister Pollitt, with the backing of the Communist majority in Parliament, abolishes the House of Lords and begins enacting major labor and legal reforms in Britain.
1939-40: The Soviet Union remains neutral in the European conflict, quietly building up its military and industry. Soviet influence expands into Poland and Finland through peaceful means. Realizing their army is obsolete in the face of the German war machine, Poland accepts Soviet aid in modernizing their military. Poland and the Soviet Union test their newly-reformed militaries by jointly invading the Baltic states. Stalin pressures Romania into ceding the province of Moldova.
1941-42: Joint German-American research leads to the develop of jet fighters, guided missiles, long-range jet bombers, and superior tanks. Britain, Poland, and the USSR form the Manchester Pact. Germany, Spain, Italy, Norway, and the United States form the Atlantic Treaty Organization; Japan signs a separate alliance with all ATO member nations.
1942-43: Joint Russo-British research allows the Communist powers to catch up to Germany and America in military technology.
The Continent of Asia: 1939-43
1939-40: Japan overruns most of eastern China. America negotiates a deal with Japan by which the Chinese Nationalists are able to establish an independent Chinese state in western China. The Nationalists, supported by America and Japan, turn against the Communists. The Communist army is destroyed and Mao is killed; the few remaining flee to Mongolia and establish a state under Soviet protection. The Republic of China is established.
1943: Soviet invasion of Persia and Afghanistan. Soviets conquer both nations and incorporate them into the USSR as the Soviet Socialist Republics of Iran and Afghanistan.
The American Continents: 1939-43
1941: US intervention on Hispaniola; US Marines land in Haiti and the Dominican Republic to put down Communist movements in both nations. Hispaniola annexed by United States. Nicaragua formally annexed by United States after military occupation since defeat of the Royal Marines at Managua.
Rising Tensions: 1943-45
1943-45: Tensions rise between the ATO and Manchester Pact as the alliances compete for influence throughout the world.
The Korean Affair: 1948-49
May 1, 1948: Communist rebels rise up against Japanese domination in Korea. The rebellion is centered around the city of Chongjin.
May-July, 1948: Japanese forces fight the Communist uprising in Korea; the Japanese are surprised by the quality and quantity of weapons available to the Koreans.
August-September, 1948: Japanese forces largely succeed in suppressing the Korean revolt. Fearing the revolt will be defeated, the Soviet Union steps up its support for the Korean Communists, evening risking providing direct air support for embattled Communist units with repainted Soviet aircraft.
September 16, 1948: A Soviet fighter-bomber painted with Korean markings is shot down over central Korea. The pilot bails out and is captured by a patrol of Japanese soldiers. Soviet support for the Korean uprising is revealed to the world.
September 1948-December 1948: Japan defeats the Korean Communists. Tensions rise along the Russo-Japanese border, and in Europe.
Map as of December 30, 1948:
I haven't ironed all the bugs out of the timeline yet, and I'm not sure if I'll make it an NES or not.
Grandmaster
Deity
Indeed, she shares the name of the ship that exploded in Cuba and helped spark the Spanish-American War. What a coincidence. 
Insane_Panda
Deity
Your spiffed up map shall be done today, GM.
das
Regeneration In Process
Nice, but after WWI the numbers of anglophiles in USA and of americanophiles in UK were high enough to prevent a full-blown war.
Generally, such things were done by Britain after previously getting USA's consent. If USA didn't agree, I think the British wouldn't bother.
No, sorry. Up until 1939, and even afterwards, Hitler invariably regarded Britain and Italy as his only natural allies. Much more likely is Hitler sending troops to help the British, in order to cement an alliance against USSR.
German air forces, back then, were hardly strong enough for a Battle of Britain; also, it was too short-ranged to get to Scapa Flow.
Also, the British fleet was rather strong.
And also, Germany invaded just France. That involves charging full-speed through the Maginot Line...
They weren't allies yet.
No, sorry. There were no people who would have dared to attack Hitler after the Anchluss. Also, such an action would cause civil war.
As said before...
HUH?! About as leftist as Britain could have goteen back then is Social Democratic. The Communist party was a laughing stock.
That too is rather unlikely. a) Stalin would probably have used German distraction to defeat the hated Poles; b) The Poles hated Stalin and USSR and would much rather have ceded Pozen to Germany then allied with USSR; c) And why would Romania accept? More likely is a Soviet invasion of Romania, which I suspect would succeed.
That, too, is unlikely. Why should the Japanese agree? Also, the Communists were much harder to wipe out then this. Finally, Mongolia already was a Soviet satellite state.
Why would they do that? To scare off India, a potential ally?
Where would that come from? Korea showed no signs of rebelling.
Again, why? Unless Stalin died earlier...
Sorry for all this, I just happen to think that such criticism helps. Always helped me...
Generally, such things were done by Britain after previously getting USA's consent. If USA didn't agree, I think the British wouldn't bother.
No, sorry. Up until 1939, and even afterwards, Hitler invariably regarded Britain and Italy as his only natural allies. Much more likely is Hitler sending troops to help the British, in order to cement an alliance against USSR.
German air forces, back then, were hardly strong enough for a Battle of Britain; also, it was too short-ranged to get to Scapa Flow.
Also, the British fleet was rather strong.
And also, Germany invaded just France. That involves charging full-speed through the Maginot Line...
They weren't allies yet.
No, sorry. There were no people who would have dared to attack Hitler after the Anchluss. Also, such an action would cause civil war.
As said before...
HUH?! About as leftist as Britain could have goteen back then is Social Democratic. The Communist party was a laughing stock.
That too is rather unlikely. a) Stalin would probably have used German distraction to defeat the hated Poles; b) The Poles hated Stalin and USSR and would much rather have ceded Pozen to Germany then allied with USSR; c) And why would Romania accept? More likely is a Soviet invasion of Romania, which I suspect would succeed.
That, too, is unlikely. Why should the Japanese agree? Also, the Communists were much harder to wipe out then this. Finally, Mongolia already was a Soviet satellite state.
Why would they do that? To scare off India, a potential ally?
Where would that come from? Korea showed no signs of rebelling.
Again, why? Unless Stalin died earlier...
Sorry for all this, I just happen to think that such criticism helps. Always helped me...
das
Regeneration In Process
No, not really. Stalin didn't care about the Indian Ocean too much. Stalin WAS interested in Iran, but not in annexing it, as he knew that would only cause problems.
A much more plausible variant is a creation of a pro-Soviet regime in Iran and in Afghanistan.
A much more plausible variant is a creation of a pro-Soviet regime in Iran and in Afghanistan.
Grandmaster
Deity
Das, thanks for the input. That's why I posted this here. In an attempt to answer some questions, and perhaps find some better solutions:
Britain in this timeline is, after a hugely expensive naval armament program, even more desperately strapped for cash then in OTL. With an inflated sense of British pride bolstered by their mighty new navy, they don't feel they need American approval of their foreign policy.
From what I've read and seen (sorry, couldn't cite the sources if I tried), Hitler prior to the last few years of the thirties considered the United States not only a logical ally, but also a model to be emulated -- a large, industrialized country with a powerful military and a history of Nordic colonists removing an "inferior" native race from their lands, settling them on reservations, and putting the land to better use. In this timeline, the US is much more powerful in '38 than in OTL, and as such an even more logical ally for Hitler; ever the opportunist, Hitler also had the incentive of being able to strike the UK when it was vulnerable at a particular moment in time, whereas he would have to fight the US on even footing.
The Germans hitting Scapa Flow was a bit of creative liscence, I admit, but not one which I think is too terrible.
Remember, the Royal and US Navies and the Kriegsmarine of '38 are by no means the fleets they were in OTL. Since '22-23, all major naval powers invested huge amounts of money and manpower into building vast fleets of large capital ships, culminating in the super-battleships; all three navies are much larger and much more battleship-heavy than in OTL. The US Navy especially is larger and more powerful than it was in OTL, even relative to the larger Royal Navy; add in some American victories in the Atlantic and Caribbean, and the Royal Navy is no longer as powerful as you think it is.
Yes, the Wehrmacht had to go through the Maginot Line. Yes, this was a bad idea. Yes, this was very costly to the Germans, who were not yet really prepared for an effective invasion of France. Yes, the Germans ultimately broke through the weaker sections of the line, and were able to eventually pass even the stronger sections by simply blasting themselves a corridor with artillery, 88's, and aircraft. Yes, it's a little contrived, but I think its at least possible.
Mussolini and Hitler formed the Berlin-Rome Axis in November 1936. So yes, Germany and Italy were allies in '38.
Again, from what I've read and seen (and again, I couldn't cite it, unfortunately) there were always both conservative military elements and leftist elements which were conspiring against Hitler. Perhaps his prestige was high enough immediately after the Anschluss to protect him; but after a terribly bloody campaign in France, I think its feasible to imagine that those who were opposed to him when Germany was clearly winning would be willing to attack him when Germany was in danger of failure. And a civil war was probably more likely than a clean, successful coup; but the conspiracy, and new anti-Hitler sentiment, were somewhat widespread, and a Night of the Long Knives-type campaign to eliminate pro-Nazi elements did succeed, so I think a coup could have been successful.
Yes, in OTL Social Democratic seems likely. But in OTL Britain wasn't completely defeated, humiliated, stripped of its colonies, and badly damaged by fire raids. If you could propose a better transition to Communism in Britain, I'd be appreciative.
About the USSR and Poland.... I don't know. I'm truly not knowledgeable about that region of Europe in the 1930's to paint an accurate picture. Any suggestions?
True, I think I'll change it to a Soviet invasion of Romania.
Japan would agree because a great deal of pressure is being placed on them by their two biggest allies. In this timeline, there was never a US oil embargo, hence no Pacific War; but since Japan in this timeline did not attack the Dutch East Indies, an American embargo would still have been devastating. And besides, most of China's valuable territory is in Manchuria and along the coast.
Yes, I know Mongolia was already a Soviet satellite state. All I'm saying is that remaining elements of the Chinese Communists fled to Mongolia and became a major component of that nation's government... really just setting the stage for potential conflict in an NES, if this ever becomes one.
Why would USSR invade Persia and Afghanistan. Partly because they can (British withdrawal and a desire to flex some muscle), partly for Iranian oil (I know, I know, they have the Caucasus and Siberia...), and Afghanistan... not sure. Why'd they invade Afghanistan in OTL, except to extend their sphere of influence? Perhaps they should just establish puppet states rather than annexing the territories.
The Koreans, I think, never really appreciated being occupied by Japan. The rebellion was pretty much fomented by the Soviet Union, who supplied weapons and funds to those people who would in OTL have become the Communist government of North Korea. It was, more or less, Stalin taking advantage a quiet underlying anti-Japanese sentiment to make a power play in Asia.
Why'd they provide additional support? For the same reason they provided support in the first place, to extend Soviet power into Korea; they had already invested considerable money and effort into the rebellion, and wanted to see it succeed.
Please, any more constructive criticism would be very much appreciated. I want to get this one nice and ironed out.
Britain in this timeline is, after a hugely expensive naval armament program, even more desperately strapped for cash then in OTL. With an inflated sense of British pride bolstered by their mighty new navy, they don't feel they need American approval of their foreign policy.
From what I've read and seen (sorry, couldn't cite the sources if I tried), Hitler prior to the last few years of the thirties considered the United States not only a logical ally, but also a model to be emulated -- a large, industrialized country with a powerful military and a history of Nordic colonists removing an "inferior" native race from their lands, settling them on reservations, and putting the land to better use. In this timeline, the US is much more powerful in '38 than in OTL, and as such an even more logical ally for Hitler; ever the opportunist, Hitler also had the incentive of being able to strike the UK when it was vulnerable at a particular moment in time, whereas he would have to fight the US on even footing.
The Germans hitting Scapa Flow was a bit of creative liscence, I admit, but not one which I think is too terrible.
Remember, the Royal and US Navies and the Kriegsmarine of '38 are by no means the fleets they were in OTL. Since '22-23, all major naval powers invested huge amounts of money and manpower into building vast fleets of large capital ships, culminating in the super-battleships; all three navies are much larger and much more battleship-heavy than in OTL. The US Navy especially is larger and more powerful than it was in OTL, even relative to the larger Royal Navy; add in some American victories in the Atlantic and Caribbean, and the Royal Navy is no longer as powerful as you think it is.
Yes, the Wehrmacht had to go through the Maginot Line. Yes, this was a bad idea. Yes, this was very costly to the Germans, who were not yet really prepared for an effective invasion of France. Yes, the Germans ultimately broke through the weaker sections of the line, and were able to eventually pass even the stronger sections by simply blasting themselves a corridor with artillery, 88's, and aircraft. Yes, it's a little contrived, but I think its at least possible.
Mussolini and Hitler formed the Berlin-Rome Axis in November 1936. So yes, Germany and Italy were allies in '38.
Again, from what I've read and seen (and again, I couldn't cite it, unfortunately) there were always both conservative military elements and leftist elements which were conspiring against Hitler. Perhaps his prestige was high enough immediately after the Anschluss to protect him; but after a terribly bloody campaign in France, I think its feasible to imagine that those who were opposed to him when Germany was clearly winning would be willing to attack him when Germany was in danger of failure. And a civil war was probably more likely than a clean, successful coup; but the conspiracy, and new anti-Hitler sentiment, were somewhat widespread, and a Night of the Long Knives-type campaign to eliminate pro-Nazi elements did succeed, so I think a coup could have been successful.
Yes, in OTL Social Democratic seems likely. But in OTL Britain wasn't completely defeated, humiliated, stripped of its colonies, and badly damaged by fire raids. If you could propose a better transition to Communism in Britain, I'd be appreciative.
About the USSR and Poland.... I don't know. I'm truly not knowledgeable about that region of Europe in the 1930's to paint an accurate picture. Any suggestions?
True, I think I'll change it to a Soviet invasion of Romania.
Japan would agree because a great deal of pressure is being placed on them by their two biggest allies. In this timeline, there was never a US oil embargo, hence no Pacific War; but since Japan in this timeline did not attack the Dutch East Indies, an American embargo would still have been devastating. And besides, most of China's valuable territory is in Manchuria and along the coast.
Yes, I know Mongolia was already a Soviet satellite state. All I'm saying is that remaining elements of the Chinese Communists fled to Mongolia and became a major component of that nation's government... really just setting the stage for potential conflict in an NES, if this ever becomes one.
Why would USSR invade Persia and Afghanistan. Partly because they can (British withdrawal and a desire to flex some muscle), partly for Iranian oil (I know, I know, they have the Caucasus and Siberia...), and Afghanistan... not sure. Why'd they invade Afghanistan in OTL, except to extend their sphere of influence? Perhaps they should just establish puppet states rather than annexing the territories.
The Koreans, I think, never really appreciated being occupied by Japan. The rebellion was pretty much fomented by the Soviet Union, who supplied weapons and funds to those people who would in OTL have become the Communist government of North Korea. It was, more or less, Stalin taking advantage a quiet underlying anti-Japanese sentiment to make a power play in Asia.
Why'd they provide additional support? For the same reason they provided support in the first place, to extend Soviet power into Korea; they had already invested considerable money and effort into the rebellion, and wanted to see it succeed.
Please, any more constructive criticism would be very much appreciated. I want to get this one nice and ironed out.
das
Regeneration In Process
If that is so, Anglo-Japanese alliance is not cancelled. So it will be a two-front naval war for USA.
Problem is, other sources indicate that he disliked the American "melting pot" (hence Americans a "mongrel race"). He also considered it a "Jewish empire".
The British, on the other hand, were a fellow Nordic race until they refused to sign peace after the fall of France (after that, they were dropped to the Anglo-Saxon level, which wasn't too bad neither). Britain, for its part, had many people interested in alliance with Germany; some out of ideology (Oswald Mosley), many out of the "Red Menace" thing, and then some out of convenience.
So Hitler would probably ally with Britain to defend the "Nordic English" from the "mongrel hordes". Especially as Britain was seen by many people as THE naval power, and thus likely to defeat USA in a naval war (not true, especially considering the more modern nature of the US fleet). Then again, perhaps Hitler COULD decide to attack Britain instead, if the relations between Britain and Germany are lowered through butterflies.
Well, its mostly a matter of range... Somehow I doubt the Germans could have done that. Though if they built an aircraft carrier, or bought one...
Yet the anti-Hitler factions were rather disorganized. Even if they pull through all this, they might then quarrel with each other.
Well... Perhaps if the Depression strikes on the peak of the British naval strenghthening program, Britain could be worsened economicaly and socially enough to let the communists rise to power after the defeat. Hmm... Politt? What about Orwell?
What's possible is this - Stalin sees that Hitler bogged down in France and hints to him that the Worker and Peasant Red Army still exists and is big. Big enough to, say, overrun Poland and then attack Germany. So in exchange for Soviet neutrality (and continued profitable trade agreements), Hitler should agree to the Soviet spheres of influence in Finnish Karelia, the Baltic States, Poland east of Curzon Line (a.k.a. West Belorussia and West Ukraine), Romania (Bessarabia, but also Romania itself as a possible "pro-Soviet state") and Spain. USSR procedes to consume all those, leaving Poland with only its western half (where a radical leftist party came to power, not communist but still "neutral pro-Soviet") while Romania, indeed, loses Bessarabia and becomes a People's Republic of. In Spain, a pro-Soviet government came to power after Franco's defeat and a communist-anticommunist civil war amongst the victors.
Problem is, Japan's only big ally was Britain (see above), with Germany as a secondary ally, if at all.
Speaking of which, Panda trully needs to fix that map. Mongolia never looked like this!
The people who invaded Afghanistan were if not followers of Trotsky in foreign policy, then the followers of Molotov at least. And they invaded it to make an example of them to the other communist nations, as well. Meanwhile, back then Afghanistan was ruled by a monarch who, btw, was very interesting in that that his was the first government to recognize the USSR. I don't see why would Stalin want to get more potential basmachis.
Thing is, most of them did until Japan started losing. Several Japanese divisions were dominated by Koreans, and they were amongst the most loyal forces. There were plenty of Korean officers in the army and the navy alike; not sure about civil officials, but I won't be surprised if there were those as well. True, there were some dissenters, as always, but there was only ONE Korean rebellion against the Japanese, again, not counting the one in '45.
Oh, and btw, am currently working on a certain modern timeline of my own... Does anyone here have any an idea on the possible stance of Huey Long on foreign policy? I.e. pro-British, anti-British, isolationist? No, its not in the center of that tl, but an element in it, and a one on which a lot of things might depend when I get to writing about the alt-WWII.
das
Regeneration In Process
After 1440, came a time of comparative stability in Europe and much of the other world. Let us use this moment to look at the general state of things in Europe, Middle East and China in mid-15th century.
Scotland and Ireland, for the moment, remained independant; ofcourse, the latter was very fractured. The UK meanwhile already was done putting down rebellions in its continental part, and by 1470 was again looking north. Their king, Richard I, was upset over being, like his father, in the shadow of Edward the Great, and so he wanted the glory and fame of the Conqueror of Scotland and Ireland.
All that is not quite important. Generally, UK had some rough early years, but when France was somewhat rebuilt, it became clear that this was a power to be reckoned with. For instance, it was in control of a lot of trade goods; wool, for example, and French wines. It was trading with Burgundy and the Union of Kalmar, and ofcourse with the Hanseatic cities, and that trade was very profitable. Ofcourse, the French nobility is not too happy with English rule, and the English nobility is not too happy with the growing significance of France, but all-in-all this is a rising power.
In Iberia, things are much like in OTL. Aragon has taken over Navarra, Grenade is holding out with bribes alone, etc. However, in Castile, Princess Juana's faction is, due to butterfly reasons, stronger then in OTL. Considerably stronger. King Henry IV is near death, and once he does, war will come to Iberia - Juana is supported by half the nobility, much of the clergy and by Portugal, while Isabella is supported by the other half of the nobility and Aragon. The urban population and the merchants generally are pro-Juana, but the peasants are more pro-Isabella.
Burgundy used this time to screw up the relations with the Holy Roman Empire. King Charles I has boldly made war on the duchy of Lorraine, eventually conquering it, and later, along with the duke of Austria Frederich III and the duke of Milan attacked the Swiss League. At first, these attacks ended in humiliating disasters, but eventually, the Milanese mercenaries and a goodwill troop of longbowmen from the UK succeeded in the Battle at Dietikon. Indeed, by 1470, the Swiss lands were partitioned between Milan and Burgundy. Both UK and HRE were increasingly alarmed at the rise of their mutual ally.
Milan, for its part, was making lots of enemies. It alarmed the Pope, it antagonized the Venetians over Brescia, and finally it also was seen as a threat by Aragon. Still, Milan had the favour of the Emperor, and as said before, was strong and rich. So far, so good...
The Kalmar Union was rather unstable due to those pesky Swedes, but that was compensated with the rising trade incomes.
Holy Roman Empire was very interesting indeed. In 1438, with the death of Emperor Sigismudn, House Luxembourg lost control over the HRE. The struggle for domination that ensued was largely a competition between the Hapsburgs, the Wittelsbachs and the Hohenzollerns. Eventually, it was the energetic policy of the Hohenzollerns that won the grand prize, and thusly Frederick III Hohenzollen became the new Holy Roman Emperor. By then, the Hohenzollern holdings were growing greatly, as they acquired Hannover and some lands on the Rhine. The Hohenzollern would begin the hard process of making the Holy Roman Emperor most powerful within his empire once more.
The Teutonic Order, despite all, was decaying. Its lifespan was increased by the victory at Grunwald, but the Baltic state, despite its military prowess and great wealth, had long ago lived its finest hour.
Poland was, meanwhile, engaged in near-constant warfare with Czechia and Hungary (separately, ofcourse). Silesia was ravaged and burned, but it was Czechia that would emerge victorious. Lusatia, Silesia and Moravia were formally recognized as her possessions in 1468, and the Poles now begun to look east, at their "allies".
These allies - Lithuanians - were quite something to look at. It was the largest state in Europe, and continued expanding - mostly into Caucasus, but also east, towards the Urals. The Cossacks were mostly swayed to Lithuanian side by promises of special priveleges, and formed the vanguard of Lithuanian expansionism. One must also add, though, that Lithuania-Russia was an increasingly Russian state - the language used by civil officials, for instance, was Russian (this Russian was, ofcourse, influenced by Lithuanian, and resembled OTL Belorussian in some points). Generally, the Lithuanians were being assimilated.
Something must be said about Venice - it was doing rather well. Though not gaining as much land in Italy as in OTL, it on the other hand used the fall of the Ottoman Sultanate and of Genoa well, grabbing Genoan colonies (all of them apart from Corsica) and also, after some fighting with the Latins and the Byzantines, all of Greece. It also was on good terms with the Timurids...
Hungary was, despite the defeat in Silesia, a great power. Indeed, short of Greece, some Adriatic coastlines and Constantinople, it dominated the Balkans. Moldavia, Wallachia, Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonnia - all those were ever since the rule of Corwin the Great parts of Hungary. Troublesome parts, yes, but there was great potential for further development...
Byzantine Empire was a very, very small state, in fact it could be considered a city-state if not for the thin Marmaran coastline it controlled. The last emperors led a hedonistic lifestyle ignoring all that happened around them, and generally it was obvious that Constantinople would be grabbed as soon as the Timurids lose that byzantophilia. And they already had not much of it left...
By then, apart from Oman and Yemen, there were only three states in the Middle East. Georgia had recently pulled itself together when facing a Timurid invasion and, miracilously, defeated it. The other two were the Timurid Empire and the Mamluke Sultanate. They often fought over Syria, and at first, Timurids were winning. That was until the reforms of Ashraf-Bey (as well as other useful activities like killing off most relatives, who tended to bicker and bicker and thus assist the Timurids) after the yet another defeat; after that, the Mamluke Sultanate became much more of a challenge, especially with Venetian funds and mercenaries. The victory at Tyre allowed the reconquest of Syria, and also disrupted Timurid control over Anatolia. Sure, the heirs of Tamerlane eventually defeated those rebels, but this was a major blow anyway. However, Mamlukes failed to attack further succesfully, and thus the border stabilized.
And China was getting more and more unstable...
Scotland and Ireland, for the moment, remained independant; ofcourse, the latter was very fractured. The UK meanwhile already was done putting down rebellions in its continental part, and by 1470 was again looking north. Their king, Richard I, was upset over being, like his father, in the shadow of Edward the Great, and so he wanted the glory and fame of the Conqueror of Scotland and Ireland.
All that is not quite important. Generally, UK had some rough early years, but when France was somewhat rebuilt, it became clear that this was a power to be reckoned with. For instance, it was in control of a lot of trade goods; wool, for example, and French wines. It was trading with Burgundy and the Union of Kalmar, and ofcourse with the Hanseatic cities, and that trade was very profitable. Ofcourse, the French nobility is not too happy with English rule, and the English nobility is not too happy with the growing significance of France, but all-in-all this is a rising power.
In Iberia, things are much like in OTL. Aragon has taken over Navarra, Grenade is holding out with bribes alone, etc. However, in Castile, Princess Juana's faction is, due to butterfly reasons, stronger then in OTL. Considerably stronger. King Henry IV is near death, and once he does, war will come to Iberia - Juana is supported by half the nobility, much of the clergy and by Portugal, while Isabella is supported by the other half of the nobility and Aragon. The urban population and the merchants generally are pro-Juana, but the peasants are more pro-Isabella.
Burgundy used this time to screw up the relations with the Holy Roman Empire. King Charles I has boldly made war on the duchy of Lorraine, eventually conquering it, and later, along with the duke of Austria Frederich III and the duke of Milan attacked the Swiss League. At first, these attacks ended in humiliating disasters, but eventually, the Milanese mercenaries and a goodwill troop of longbowmen from the UK succeeded in the Battle at Dietikon. Indeed, by 1470, the Swiss lands were partitioned between Milan and Burgundy. Both UK and HRE were increasingly alarmed at the rise of their mutual ally.
Milan, for its part, was making lots of enemies. It alarmed the Pope, it antagonized the Venetians over Brescia, and finally it also was seen as a threat by Aragon. Still, Milan had the favour of the Emperor, and as said before, was strong and rich. So far, so good...
The Kalmar Union was rather unstable due to those pesky Swedes, but that was compensated with the rising trade incomes.
Holy Roman Empire was very interesting indeed. In 1438, with the death of Emperor Sigismudn, House Luxembourg lost control over the HRE. The struggle for domination that ensued was largely a competition between the Hapsburgs, the Wittelsbachs and the Hohenzollerns. Eventually, it was the energetic policy of the Hohenzollerns that won the grand prize, and thusly Frederick III Hohenzollen became the new Holy Roman Emperor. By then, the Hohenzollern holdings were growing greatly, as they acquired Hannover and some lands on the Rhine. The Hohenzollern would begin the hard process of making the Holy Roman Emperor most powerful within his empire once more.
The Teutonic Order, despite all, was decaying. Its lifespan was increased by the victory at Grunwald, but the Baltic state, despite its military prowess and great wealth, had long ago lived its finest hour.
Poland was, meanwhile, engaged in near-constant warfare with Czechia and Hungary (separately, ofcourse). Silesia was ravaged and burned, but it was Czechia that would emerge victorious. Lusatia, Silesia and Moravia were formally recognized as her possessions in 1468, and the Poles now begun to look east, at their "allies".
These allies - Lithuanians - were quite something to look at. It was the largest state in Europe, and continued expanding - mostly into Caucasus, but also east, towards the Urals. The Cossacks were mostly swayed to Lithuanian side by promises of special priveleges, and formed the vanguard of Lithuanian expansionism. One must also add, though, that Lithuania-Russia was an increasingly Russian state - the language used by civil officials, for instance, was Russian (this Russian was, ofcourse, influenced by Lithuanian, and resembled OTL Belorussian in some points). Generally, the Lithuanians were being assimilated.
Something must be said about Venice - it was doing rather well. Though not gaining as much land in Italy as in OTL, it on the other hand used the fall of the Ottoman Sultanate and of Genoa well, grabbing Genoan colonies (all of them apart from Corsica) and also, after some fighting with the Latins and the Byzantines, all of Greece. It also was on good terms with the Timurids...
Hungary was, despite the defeat in Silesia, a great power. Indeed, short of Greece, some Adriatic coastlines and Constantinople, it dominated the Balkans. Moldavia, Wallachia, Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria, Albania, Macedonnia - all those were ever since the rule of Corwin the Great parts of Hungary. Troublesome parts, yes, but there was great potential for further development...
Byzantine Empire was a very, very small state, in fact it could be considered a city-state if not for the thin Marmaran coastline it controlled. The last emperors led a hedonistic lifestyle ignoring all that happened around them, and generally it was obvious that Constantinople would be grabbed as soon as the Timurids lose that byzantophilia. And they already had not much of it left...
By then, apart from Oman and Yemen, there were only three states in the Middle East. Georgia had recently pulled itself together when facing a Timurid invasion and, miracilously, defeated it. The other two were the Timurid Empire and the Mamluke Sultanate. They often fought over Syria, and at first, Timurids were winning. That was until the reforms of Ashraf-Bey (as well as other useful activities like killing off most relatives, who tended to bicker and bicker and thus assist the Timurids) after the yet another defeat; after that, the Mamluke Sultanate became much more of a challenge, especially with Venetian funds and mercenaries. The victory at Tyre allowed the reconquest of Syria, and also disrupted Timurid control over Anatolia. Sure, the heirs of Tamerlane eventually defeated those rebels, but this was a major blow anyway. However, Mamlukes failed to attack further succesfully, and thus the border stabilized.
And China was getting more and more unstable...
I was thinking what would happen if America Became Isolationist
I.e. "After 9/11 and the disaterous Iraq war (it'd didn't go as planned or something *shrug*) The World Opinion of America made The American People Vote for a pro-isolationist America (ok maybe it would have to be North America)...
Just some reason that makes it go isolationist. Would it not be intresting to think about what would happen to the rest of the world?
I.e. "After 9/11 and the disaterous Iraq war (it'd didn't go as planned or something *shrug*) The World Opinion of America made The American People Vote for a pro-isolationist America (ok maybe it would have to be North America)...
Just some reason that makes it go isolationist. Would it not be intresting to think about what would happen to the rest of the world?
das
Regeneration In Process
I don't think it is likely after 9/11. Rather, if we worsen some economic and social crisises of late Cold War, after it is over there will be a possibility of USA going into isolation as well.
Hmm... I also remember an interesting story, "Green Whistle"... it is theorized there that while USSR was going through "perestroika" and abandoning many positions to easen the economic strain, there were many people in USA's government that intended to do the same, to an extent... Hmm - economic and social crisieses in Cold War are worsened, by 1987 the Cold War ends. USSR is reformed into a "North Eurasian Federation" (no seccessions, that was rather close-run in OTL), USA also goes through several reforms (social-democratic) after a severe economic crisis, both abandon many positions and go into semi-isolation (ala pre-WWII USA).
GM, where are you?
Hmm... I also remember an interesting story, "Green Whistle"... it is theorized there that while USSR was going through "perestroika" and abandoning many positions to easen the economic strain, there were many people in USA's government that intended to do the same, to an extent... Hmm - economic and social crisieses in Cold War are worsened, by 1987 the Cold War ends. USSR is reformed into a "North Eurasian Federation" (no seccessions, that was rather close-run in OTL), USA also goes through several reforms (social-democratic) after a severe economic crisis, both abandon many positions and go into semi-isolation (ala pre-WWII USA).
GM, where are you?
Insane_Panda
Deity
Huey long was quite a character....
das
Regeneration In Process
Actually, in the long-run...
I know. I would like to know as to what will he do when Britain, Japan and France, with a few minor allies, are at war with a fascist Russia and a very socialist though still nationalist Germany and a communist China - in the beginning, or at the moment at which the tide becomes clearly against the British.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Kal'thzar said:
In the long run however, China's not bad right now eh?
I think the isolation was needed to shock the Chinese people into knowing how bad they were off technologically to get the people moving faster after they got out of isolation.
Insane_Panda
Deity
Well, he was an avid populist, with some dictatoral qualities. He remarked himself that facism would come to america, but draped in the american flag.
I believe he would probably have kept america out of it, and inturn america would be more isolationist. Perhaps anti-british, but im not sure on that.
I believe he would probably have kept america out of it, and inturn america would be more isolationist. Perhaps anti-british, but im not sure on that.
Insane_Panda
Deity
Well, china's still got its problems....
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