Alternate History Question: What if the Soviet Union won the Cold War?

Switch625

I don't care.
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My topic is outlined in the thread title. I would like the Russians of CivFanatics, and other Eastern Europeans with direct experience of the Soviet Union, to post their theories of what the Soviet Union would have done if it were the United States that collapsed, and not the SU. How the Soviet Union might act as the lone superpower in the world, and what you think the world might be like today if it were.

I don't really have a theory on the issue that isn't clouded by my own biases, and I'm looking for some objective ideas. Thank you in advance!
 
Well, it's quite difficult to apply 'ifs' to history.

First let me disagree with the statement that "the SU lost the Cold War". The SU collapsed on its own without any outer political causes. So I can't see any US involvement in this proccess. And therefore can't agree that somebody WON it or LOST it. It doesn't make sense. My arguing to the topic does not stem from my being offended or whatever. I just don't grasp the meaning.

As to the jist of the question, I'd say the world wouldn't be better or worse. A one polar world is always bad. The US collapse would imply economic crises in the EU, the Northern and Latin America and some countries which were aided by the US or depended strongly on the dollar. The Communist bloc wouldn't be much affected economically. But looking more deeply into this problem, I'd say the SU would suffer significant losses since its economic prosperity depends on purchases of oil and gas by the Western countries. Collapse would mean falling demand etc. etc. OK. I'm prone to think economic situation in most countries in the world would have been worse than it is.

The Warsaw agreement would have replaced NATO in terms of its importance. Maybe we'd have avoided some wars and conflicts, maybe we'd have got some more. But for sure the SU wouldn't behave itself politically, it wouldn't be fairer. Just like the US nowadays. So far as politics is concerned, the world wouldn't be much more different than it is.

Well that's first that came to my mind. I'll think about and probably come up with some new ideas.
 
well if by somehow the economic polices had changed in the kruschev years maybe the USSR could still be here, but for this thread purpuses lets say the american stock market collapses fallowed by a BIG drought and forest fires in 1991, leaving the USSR the only super power, i think that it also depends what kind of premier was in power, a good leader, a bad leader, etc, mmmmh........lets say it was another breznev, well the USSR would follow and collapse too, but if it was another good leader he wouild use his luck and supply w/ the no-longer us-suported nations w/ aid, even w/ teh posibility to aid america for political purpuses, also people would be going to the ussr other than leaving, just like in the great depresion some americans left for stalinist USSR, well military invasions would be possible, still not as big since the US can retaliate, but taking small nations the "legal way" by elections and turning them into satellites............but wat do i know ;)

:ak47: :aargh3: "take taht capitalist pigs" then :whipped: :cringe: "work, and repeat, communism is the way of teh present..."
 
Well, it's very simple really. Then everything would be commie.

I would be busy working as a PR flack for Bill Blaikie, Member of the Canadian National Soviet for Winnipeg-Transcona, helping him sell the second 4-year plan to a skeptical mining community. I would own one very gray suit. I would be disappointed.

Pellekan would be running CFC with an iron fist. CFC would be much smaller, because only party members would be allowed to play it. And Civ would still be Civ1, only "open source - and free for all" - and in greyscale graphics. And Communism would be a much more productive government choice.

Newfangle would be a popular leader of Young SovExchange.

Flatlander Fox would be harvesting corn back home in the "Nebraska Combine." With a gun to his head.

Hitro would be a conscript, on exercise in the Balkans with his unit, the XXIII People's Deutschland Tank Guards Army. He would be driving the "ultramodern and unbeatable" T-80 through a cornfield. He would be frustrated that the Russkies always got to win the exercise.

Stalin006 would be in jail for his sick sense of humor.

Comrade Davo and Anarchyworksbest would be surprised to find themselves holed up together in the hills of Wales, fighting tyranny with the doobies, molotov cocktails and jacknives collected during the Great Fall.

Damien would be an organizer with the new "eurocommunism with a human face" movement in Switzerland, helping build small-scale cooperatives and plan referenda there. Little would he know that XXIII Guards Army was practicing precisely because someone was going to put an end to all that "Swiss worker's democracy s***" six weeks hence.

Kitten of Chaos would be a coal miner. Again, not by choice.

Simon Darkshade would be breaking rocks in a camp in NSW. His fellow inmates would consider him mad - even by their standards.

Rmsharpe would no longer be with us. Nor Iceblaze or G-Man. AOA would be in hiding in the hills - in Mexico.

And no one - not one of us - would have ever read such a peice of crap as Sun Tzu's Art of War. Except, perhaps, Spycatcher, local member of the John Reed Association (aka the Local Cheka), recruited and trained at the finest academies.

R.III
 
Originally posted by Richard III


Stalin006 would be in jail for his sick sense of humor.

R.III


i wouldnt be in jail, since the new govt would not care if it did it, they would care if i had a sick sense of hummor togards them :P

hey does anyone knows if there is a "what if germany had won WW2 forum"?
 
Stalin006 would be in jail for his sick sense of humor.

Yeah. And Bifrost and me would be busy sending letters to the Committee demanding to shut down this 'anti-Communist' site. We'd create an alternative one at www.sovietcivfanatics.su. In forums you'd be able to find only threads like 'why do I love Soviet Union?' and 'the decline of the American Empire'. :)
And we'd never see films like 'Red Hot'. What a relief... :crazyeye:
 
Well you all know where I'd be; taking a dirt bath near the barbed-wire fence in some prison yard, with the likes of Simon dancing on my unmarked grave...

:crazyeye:

I think a collapse of the U.S. would have been a disaster for the USSR because while neither liked to talk about it very much their economies were surprisingly integrated through trade and loans. Desperate American banks - and there's no such thing anymore as an exclusively American, German or British bank, at least on the scale that governments deal with - would call their loans prematurely to the USSR causing a worldwide panic and bank run. The Eastern European satellite communist regimes were all (except Czechoslovakia and Romania) heavily indebted to the West, and they would have gone belly-up very quickly. The USSR just did not have the funds to salvage them, as Andropov made clear to the Hungarian dictator Kádár in the early 1980s. Poland's economy was already in a free-fall by 1987, and Hungary was artificially staving off a major drop in its living standard for fear of a repeat of 1956 by spending money Budapest didn't have.

So there was an imperial realm teetering on the verge of bankruptcy, with the political center unable to help them and teetering dangerously close itself to economic ruin. The Soviet military was still quite powerful - the most powerful single military in Europe in 1989 - but even in the most loyal communist satellites its presence was resented and what's more Moscow was discovering like all imperial powers that maintaining armed forces in colonies abroad is a very expensive undertaking. The WarsawTreaty/Pact was a non-entity, from top to bottom a Soviet mechanism for keeping the operations of all the communist states complimentarily in sync with the Soviet Army. The only time any of the WTO's organs actually functioned was after 1989 when the former Soviet Bloc satellites needed a legal-looking way to extract themselves from Soviet military control. The WTO's only truly independent act was to engineer its own demise.

The communist collapse of 1989 was not brought about by political will, it was driven by economic reality and the Soviet Union's connectedness to the world economy by then would have left it extremely vulnerable to an American collapse.

The result: A far bloodier 1989 (on a scale worse than that of Romania in December), as the Western democratic model may have been discredited by a U.S. failure and therefore the extremists in Eastern Europe may have dominated the agenda. Riots, army reprisals, looting, local uprisings, severe currency devaluations, ethnic violence, lynch mobs, a massive black market for basic goods [moreso than already existed by 1989 in Eastern Europe :lol:] etc. would have engulfed Eastern Europe and no doubt spilled into at least the western republics of the USSR itself.

God only knows what would have arisen out of the ashes; a new empire? Several small warlord-controlled statelets? A radioactive desert (after the unattended or battle-damaged nuclear power plants across Eastern Europe, all built on the Chernobyl model or older, went into meltdown)?

Sorry to sound so apocalyptic, the gizzard isn't feeling so well today, but Eastern Europe was already leaning towards economic collapse in 1989 and an American collapse would have just speeding things up dangerously.
 
Originally posted by Richard III
Well, it's very simple really. Then everything would be commie.


Good stuff. :lol:

I don't like the picture you paint for CFC. Not that I'd be in any position to take part in it.
 
Ahem.
I reject the notion that one would be imprisoned. One could operate extremely well in a totalitarian system; it would just be a matter of changing the letter head and the pictures on the wall. And someone with such ...skills and predilections... as mine would be eminently useful.

One would still be sending people to the gulags or to a shallow grave in the woods as General Secretary of the Communist Party of Australia, and local KGB liason. And misusing the position and power to advance one's nefarious and evil agenda
The links of Evil Secret Societies run deep; Stalin, Beria, 'Popavalium' Andropov and many other Soviet leaders were fellow members of my club, the Evil Dark Bastards Society.
There would be a ship-building contract for the new Sovietsky Soyuz II class battleships to be built in Australia

And Pellaken would have been 'disappeared' as a favour. :mwaha:
 
Originally posted by Simon Darkshade
Ahem.
I reject the notion that one would be imprisoned. One could operate extremely well in a totalitarian system; it would just be a matter of changing the letter head and the pictures on the wall. And someone with such ...skills and predilections... as mine would be eminently useful.

One would still be sending people to the gulags or to a shallow grave in the woods as General Secretary of the Communist Party of Australia, and local KGB liason. And misusing the position and power to advance one's nefarious and evil agenda
The links of Evil Secret Societies run deep; Stalin, Beria, 'Popavalium' Andropov and many other Soviet leaders were fellow members of my club, the Evil Dark Bastards Society.
There would be a ship-building contract for the new Sovietsky Soyuz II class battleships to be built in Australia

And Pellaken would have been 'disappeared' as a favour. :mwaha:

Beyond the fact that I work for the guy, he makes a good point!
 
Originally posted by Richard III


Newfangle would be a popular leader of Young SovExchange.



[/B]


mmmmmmmmmm:cool:

Anyways, I don't think anyone really "won" the Cold War.
The USSR was not a good enough host for blooming Communism. Stalin ruined everything. Then Breshnev, and Krushchev, and pretty much everyone to date. Argggggg.....
 
well we would all be either rich, corruting politicians Mafia members, or the poor peasentry people of the "state"

and if you want to test it for your self, play civ2 world in conflict scenarios, or whatever its called best of the net file, WW79 then break up the alliance between American and Western europe spy their cities to find the most populated nuke them, bring in howitzers to destroy mech infantry in west europe and china, after allying with neutral allience [they will give you money] then you can after destroying all of the mech infantry send 1 tank and several infantry stuff to each cities adjacent square then take over all of them and with destroying the whole civ you won't have to worry about the gurrileas then build SDI in Moscow and send your freight there and rush it, then you can conquer the middle east over the next 5-8 turns then by that time you will have some nukes break up the neutral alleince and the Americans finsh of the indians using same method as the war agains western europeans and then after that its kinda luck on beating the americans. once i transported all my troops over there and accidently screwed up and the next turn the americans had sunk 3 of my transports with my tanks and 5 of my transports with the howizters and other infantry so i had 2 left and then after that they nuked my good cities near the coast and my european cities (not my inland) [prob. cuz it was too far] and then i lost.

but i tried it again and won so there is what would happen if it were a Civ2 world in real life which sometime it does for a while when i first played civ2 at my aunts house a week after it came out i didn't know geography and i thought that the mongols existed and they were our neigbohrs and that the russian were actually still czars although i didn't know what it was at the time, well engough talking... srry hope i got this is some interesting feedback
 
Perhaps the ideal dream of Communism would have been done, with the whole world being Communist? Trotsky and the beginners of the Revolution did not mean for the government to be in one country, but to be world wide--obviously things take on a different perspective when all there is is Communism. For instance, there wouldn't be any need to be a Berlin Wall.

People would eventually get used to it and no longer feel oppressed and, also eventually, the ideals and wrongs of Capitalism would have gone grey and all but forgotten--perhaps helped along by a little "Society Restructuring" by the KGB ;).

Switch, was there any particular time period you had wanted for the collapse of the US? Were we to go further in time, or say further back, than 1989-91, things would be very different.

Everything would eventually be Communist, regardless. The Soviets had a much more free arm without the delays and debates because of the totalitarian style, and we would have all been overrun by the then well-trained and well-disciplined Soviet army.

I think what I'm getting at is that once the whole world is Communist and one nation it would be different (well, at least hopefully) than it was in the Soviet Union.

Then again, I lost myself to rambling after about three sentences :confused:...

Richard, I'm not in your little listy-thingie? Do you want the knife back, or shall I keep it in my heart :cry:?
 
Also one other thing i just thought of maybe if this did happen and communism was all of the world but then it would be hard for one nation if there were to control everything if there were several nations they would compete against each other and evetually hoping for a perfect race some people would fight the government and call for a revolution so i think it would be possible for either having a completly communist state but i would think that the people who would get chumped out would revolt and try to change to something a little more opposite winged or maybe more toward the middle of the governement spectrum
 
Originally posted by Toasty
Richard, I'm not in your little listy-thingie? Do you want the knife back, or shall I keep it in my heart :cry:?

I had you pegged for a nice job as a floor sweeper at the "Howard Pawley the Worker's Friend Hydro-Electric Plant Number 17," formerly the Grand Rapids Dam in Grand Rapids, Manitoba. But then I saw that there were a few too many Canadians, and affirmative action kicked in. I'm sure you understand...

(speaking of which, anyone here ever seen the full 3CP1 episode of SCTV? Frickin' hilarious, and probably a better glimpse of a post-soviet world than anything we could come up with)

R.III
 
Canadian? Where'd you get that? I'm a pure-bred Michigander, though I'm only an hours drive from the border ;).

Affirmative action! Really, what rubbish!
 
Originally posted by Toasty
Canadian? Where'd you get that? I'm a pure-bred Michigander, though I'm only an hours drive from the border ;).

I rest my case!

R.III
 
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