Alternate History: The Munich Agreement

[r16]

But it was really Roosevelt that put the stake in it by opting for a different kind of "empire"

me being me , let me say that knocking out France was the thing that unbalanced the Europeans' hand in the back room kind of deals . Roosevelt then could make his move , to be the top dog , rather than bodyguarding for Europe . Wasn't it a previous Roosevelt that saw the combined European wrath in 1907 or so ? Sean Connery is always a delight to watch but his Rasuli is a bit different than reality .Compared to that what's Philippines ? Just a bit of Colonial fighting that's all .

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

But Poland did not want to be dragged into war against the USSR by Germany or anyone else. Poland would only fight the Soviets, if attacked by the Soviets first (and in such case Poland had a defensive alliance with Romania - both sides promised each other help in defence).

A defensive alliance curiously not invoked when the Soviets did supposedly "invade." I wonder why this was so?

Poland was not so suicidal as you may think, and it did not want to be at war neither with the USSR nor with Germany, unless supported by stronger allies. Both Polish plans of war - Plan "East" against the USSR and Plan "West" against Germany - were defensive plans. In 1939 Poland - unlike Czechoslovakia in 1938 - refused to German demands, only because of Polish alliance with France and the British guarantees (new alliance) ensuring help to Poland.

Poland was suicidal because they imagined their country to be far more capable and important that it really was, and decided that going it alone was better than accepting the truth and seeking the protection of a larger alliance. You know, like the alliance the Soviets had been seeking for three years.

Czechoslovakia was betrayed by Britain and France, who signed the Munich Argeement, and that's why Czechoslovakia decided not to resist. If a similar "Munich Agreement" happened in August 1939, Poland would also not resist Germany just like Czechoslovakia did not resist Germany without French help.

And you wonder why the Soviets occupied 1/3 of your country without your permission. You would have put the Nazis at the gates of Belarus almost without a fight! An utterly unthinkable option. Pity the Poles did not realize this paramount concern sooner, and choose to be on the side protecting them from Nazism.

 

[Domen]

A defensive alliance curiously not invoked when the Soviets did supposedly "invade." I wonder why this was so?

1) Because Germany also fought against Poland and Romania did not want to be at war with Germany and was not even obliged to dos.

2) Because Polish authorities issued an official note in which they "released" Romania from her obligation soon after the Soviet Invasion.

and decided that going it alone was better than accepting the truth and seeking the protection of a larger alliance.

But wait, this is actually what Poland did - Poland did not go alone, but accepted the protection of two larger alliances - France and Britain.

France at that time was considered (wrongly - but it only turned out in May and June 1940) as the strongest military in the world.

And Britain ruled the seas and ruled the airs (this was also not entirely true, but it also turned out later).

You know, like the alliance the Soviets had been seeking for three years.

The Nazi Germany was as well seeking alliance with Poland (an anti-Soviet one) for several years.

And Poland refused both offers. At the same time, Poland was trying not to get invaded by either of these two powers.

As I already wrote before, the main line in Polish policy was the policy of "neutral balance" between Germany and Russia.

You would have put the Nazis at the gates of Belarus almost without a fight!

When the Ribbentrop-Molotov was signed on 23 August 1939, it was already more than obvious that Poland was going to resist.

So your statement that Soviets were at risk of Poland accepting Germany's demands and not fighting, is wrong.

====================================

Oh - we might add that Poland started to ask the Soviet Union for support (but in the form of selling and sending weapons and ammunition, rather than sending troops) in September 1939. The Soviet Union never provided a clear response to those requests, and several days later it invaded Poland.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

1) Because Germany also fought against Poland and Romania did not want to be at war with Germany and was not even obliged to dos.

2) Because Polish authorities issued an official note in which they "released" Romania from her obligation soon after the Soviet Invasion.

That's not much of a defensive alliance then.

But wait, this is actually what Poland did - Poland did not go alone, but accepted the protection of two larger alliances - France and Britain.

A lot of good it did them. But they signed that agreement after the Soviets gave up and signed their agreement with Germany, so they had effectively agreed to go it alone until then. And they effectively did, as no French or British aid came.

Don't you ever wonder: how many Soviet divisions would have crossed the Brest-Litovsk line in defense against Hitler's legions? How many Poles that were executed and worked to death at the hands of the Germans might otherwise have lived? Perhaps many millions more would have lived in Eastern Europe, as Germany may well have been castrated in 1939 by a joint Polish-Soviet force?

 

[Lord Baal]

Can we just agree that Polish foreign policy is, has been, and will always be badly-executed?

 

[Domen]

That's not much of a defensive alliance then.

It was. But it was a defensive alliance against Russian forces, not against Russian-German forces. If Romanian troops entered Poland to defend it from the Red Army, they would automatically also need to fight against German forces of the 14th Army under command of general Wilhelm List.

But they signed that agreement after the Soviets gave up and signed their agreement with Germany

Of course not.

France and Poland were allies since the 1920s, and Britain's guarantees to Poland were issued on 31 March 1939.

This is all between several months and many years before the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact was signed.

And they effectively did, as no French or British aid came.

But they promised great help to Poland, and Poland believed them - which is why Poland did not agree for Germany's demands.

as Germany may well have been castrated in 1939 by a joint Polish-Soviet force?

Soviet force did not even manage to castrate tiny Finland and you expect it to castrate mighty Germany?

The Red Army was a "sick soldier of Europe" at that time.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

And Poland refused both offers. At the same time, Poland was trying not to get invaded by either of these two powers.

As I already wrote before, the main line in Polish policy was the policy of "neutral balance" between Germany and Russia.

I understand that. What I'm saying is that this was an incredibly stupid policy.

When the Ribbentrop-Molotov was signed on 23 August 1939, it was already more than obvious that Poland was going to resist.

So your statement that Soviets were at risk of Poland accepting Germany's demands and not fighting, is wrong.

No, because had the Soviets not agreed to the partition of Poland, then the Nazi forces would have invaded the rest of Poland and been that much closer to the heartland of their bitterest enemies, with whom they long-dreamed of the most epic of fights. This was not going to be allowed to happen, and if the Poles were not going to willingly allow that, then they would unwillingly allow it. You play stupid, you get treated harshly.

Oh - we might add that Poland started to ask the Soviet Union for support (but in the form of sending weapons and ammunition, rather than sending troops) in September 1939. The Soviet Union never provided a clear response to those requests, and several days later it invaded Poland.

Entered Poland. It's amazing that, 60+ years later, you still don't get that the Soviets were on your side.

Can we just agree that Polish foreign policy is, has been, and will always be badly-executed?

Yes.

 

[Domen]

then the Nazi forces would have invaded the rest of Poland

They did it. The German offensive eastward was stopped only after the Soviet invasion.

of their bitterest enemies,

In September 1939 they were Germany's "bitterest allies", not enemies.

the Soviets were on your side.

My grandfather - who fought against them and was captured by them (later escaped) in September 1939 - would not agree.

Also, maybe you don't care, but my grandfather (who was Wounded In Action) described medical help for POWs in Soviet captivity as non-existent. Only after he escaped from Soviet captivity, his wounds were dressed in a Polish field hospital (and later he received further medical help in German captivity).

If he stayed in Soviet captivity, his hand would need to be amputated, due to lack of proper medical help there.

What I'm saying is that this was an incredibly stupid policy.

But it was working well for over 15 years.

 

[Lord Baal]

The fifteen years in which neither Germany nor the USSR was really interested in invading Poland, but instead wished to use it as a buffer against the other? Once it became obvious that that was changing, Poland should have actually used the Soviets against the Germans, rather than continue to pursue their foolish "no foreign troops on Polish soil" policy.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

In September 1939 they were Germany's "bitterest allies", not enemies.

They were the bitterest "non-aggressives." There was never an alliance between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

My grandfather - who fought against them and was captured by them (later escaped) in September 1939 - would not agree.

Also, maybe you don't care, but my grandfather (who was Wounded In Action) described medical help for POWs in Soviet captivity as non-existent. Only after he escaped from Soviet captivity, his wounds were dressed in a Polish field hospital (and later he received further medical help in German captivity).

If he stayed in Soviet captivity, his hand would need to be amputated, due to lack of proper medical help there.

You're right, I don't. The quality of Soviet medical care has little to do with the lack of political foresight demonstrated by the Polish government.

But it was working well for over 15 years.

Fifteen years that no one cared about Poland's existence.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Entered Poland. It's amazing that, 60+ years later, you still don't get that the Soviets were on your side.

That's not what Katyn sounds like.

 

[Lord Baal]

That's not what Katyn sounds like.

Don't try to argue with Cheezy about this. On most subjects he's perfectly reasonable, but he has some irrational belief that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact didn't have any secret protocols regarding Eastern Europe. I do not know why he feels the need to be an apologist for Soviet actions during and immediately preceding WWII, but he does. Better to not waste your time on that, and simply argue Polish foreign policy, rather than Soviet foreign policy.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

That's not what Katyn sounds like.

I should think you would be willing to trade 20,000 for what, six million that were lost in World War II?

Don't try to argue with Cheezy about this. On most subjects he's perfectly reasonable, but he has some irrational belief that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact didn't have any secret protocols regarding Eastern Europe. I do not know why he feels the need to be an apologist for Soviet actions during and immediately preceding WWII, but he does. Better to not waste your time on that, and simply argue Polish foreign policy, rather than Soviet foreign policy.

It was a mistake for me to deny them. I should never have pretended to care about the claims to "sovereignty" in the Baltics or elsewhere. Those states only existed because of Western intervention during the Russian Civil War, and the soviets loyal to Petrograd were overthrown by foreign-armed nationalists. A true communist respects the rights of all peoples to self-determination, but also realizes that nationalism is chauvinism manipulated by a minority to divide mankind. The popular will of nearly all of those countries was expressed by sympathy for, and the sending of deputies to, their locally-organized soviets, not the nationalists who meant nothing in the great national debate before Western imperialists gave them arms and equipment.

Rather like what is happening in Syria, really, only with far less shame.

 

[Lord Baal]

I should think you would be willing to trade 20,000 for what, six million that were lost in World War II?



It was a mistake for me to deny them. I should never have pretended to care about the claims to "sovereignty" in the Baltics or elsewhere. Those states only existed because of Western intervention during the Russian Civil War, and the soviets loyal to Petrograd were overthrown by foreign-armed nationalists. A true communist respects the rights of all peoples to self-determination, but also realizes that nationalism is chauvinism manipulated by a minority to divide mankind. The popular will of nearly all of those countries was expressed by sympathy for, and the sending of deputies to, their locally-organized soviets, not the nationalists who meant nothing in the great national debate before Western imperialists gave them arms and equipment.

Rather like what is happening in Syria, really, only with far less shame.

So you agree that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact contained secret protocols to divide Eastern and Central Europe into spheres of influence, including outright annexations?

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

So you agree that the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact contained secret protocols to divide Eastern and Central Europe into spheres of influence, including outright annexations?

I don't think it matters whether it did or not, because if it did, I don't care about the objections to it, and if it didn't, then it didn't. But I still consider their existence suspect.

 

[Lord Baal]

I don't think it matters whether it did or not, because if it did, I don't care about the objections to it, and if it didn't, then it didn't. But I still consider their existence suspect.

Their existence is verified, Cheezy. Those records have been released. The Germans released them seventy years ago. I am unsure if the Russians released them in 1991, but didn't Gorbachev admit their existence prior to that?

 

[Domen]

They were the bitterest "non-aggressives." There was never an alliance between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union.

They provided aid to each other in combats against Polish forces, shook hands, organized joint parades - and after the end of the successful campaign, they traded with each other, invited each other to firing ranges to watch military exercises and exchanged resources and technology. This is what allies do.

Communists and Nazis were allies in 1939. Not so surprising - the Masonic Order was also allied with the Catholic Church in some periods and countries.

I do not know why he feels the need to be an apologist for Soviet actions during and immediately preceding WWII, but he does.

For the same reason why, for example, radical Catholics are apologists for most actions of (or inspired by) the Holy See and its members in history.

Cheezy is a radical Communist and the fact that he is neither Soviet nor Russian doesn't count here. He still perceives the USSR as his idol state.

A true communist respects the rights of all peoples to self-determination

So apparently true communists were very, very, VERY few in history...

Perhaps you should add the following passage (it is much more true than the statement you posted above):

"A true Soviet communist respects the rights of all peoples to self-determined (as well as forcible) incorporation to the Soviet Union."

"Problems" started only after some peoples did not want to get incorporated to the Soviet Union...

but also realizes that nationalism is chauvinism manipulated by a minority to divide mankind.

The fact that someone didn't want to be part of the Soviet Union (shocking! how could they!? ) could also be motivated by the fact, that they prefered capitalism over communism, not only by nationalism or patriotism. Also fear of the "Red terror" and "another Holodomor" could be very important.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

I should never have pretended to care about the claims to "sovereignty" in the Baltics or elsewhere.

So you are not a true communist as well. Because you don't respect the right to self-determination at all, apparently.

BTW - Finland was also not allowed the right to self-determination, which is why the Soviet Union invaded Finland.

 

[Domen]

OK - you are a true communist.

Because this is exactly the characteristics of true communists. They say one thing, and do the opposite thing.

You actually even say opposite things - for example:

A true communist respects the rights of all peoples to self-determination.

I should never have pretended to care about the claims to "sovereignty" in the Baltics or elsewhere.

 

[Domen]

That's not what Katyn sounds like.

Katyn is just tip of the iceberg.

Stalin started to persecute and exterminate Polish-speaking minority in the USSR already in 1937 - 1938:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Polish_Operation_of_the_NKVD_(1937–1938)

The Polish Operation of the NKVD in 1937–1938 was a Soviet Great Purge-era mass operation against purported Polish agents in the Soviet Union, explicitly ordered against Polish spies, but interpreted by the NKVD as relating to "absolutely all Poles". It resulted in the sentencing of 139,835 people and the execution of 111,091 Poles,[1] and those accused of working for Poland.[2] The operation was implemented according to NKVD Order № 00485 signed by Nikolai Yezhov.[3] Not all, but the majority were ethnic Poles according to Timothy Snyder: 85,000 is given by him as a "conservative estimate" of the number of executed Poles.[4] The remainder being 'suspected' to be Polish without further inquiry.[3]

NKVD personnel gathered Polish-sounding names from local telephone books in order to speed up the process. In Leningrad alone, almost 7,000 citizens were rounded up. A vast majority of them were executed within 10 days of arrest.[5] In the fourteen months after the adoption of Order № 00485, 143,810 people were captured, of whom 139,885 were sentenced by extrajudical organs, and 111,091 executed (nearly 80% of all victims).[6]

It was the largest ethnic shooting and deportation action during the Great Terror.[7]

Such a good friend of all Polish-speaking people was Stalin.

Of course he (Stalin) treated other citizens of the Soviet Union not much better than this. He was generally a scurvy murderer.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

They provided aid to each other in combats against Polish forces, shook hands, organized joint parades - and after the end of the successful campaign, they traded with each other, invited each other to firing ranges to watch military exercises and exchanged resources and technology. This is what allies do.

No, it's what people not at war do, when they want the other person to relax about a possible coming war.

And I don't think they exchanged technology.

He still perceives the USSR as his idol state.

Hardly. But what can I say? Hooks catch fish, and saying ridiculous things about something that I'm knowledgeable about will cause me to defend the truth about them. And that's whether we're talking about the USSR, Nazi Germany, Barack Obama, the way to safely prepare food, or the dual nature of light.

"Problems" started only after some peoples did not want to get incorporated to the Soviet Union...

Incidentally, most of those countries were part of Sovnarkom (the constituent dominion of the Council of Peoples' Commissars, before the USSR was founded in 1922), before their local soviets were overthrown by foreign-armed nationalist militants.

The fact that someone didn't want to be part of the Soviet Union (shocking! how could they!? ) could also be motivated by the fact, that they prefered capitalism over communism, not only by nationalism or patriotism. Also fear of the "Red terror" and "another Holodomor" could be very important.

Who preferred capitalism: the capitalists who ran the country, or the workers who had tried to be part of Sovnarkom? Hint: one of them had guns and the backing of foreign empires.

So you are not a true communist as well. Because you don't respect the right to self-determination at all, apparently.

I respect it when the decision is chosen by the majority of the people, not a small minority manipulating peoples' attachment to meaningless ethnic distinctions and other nationalistic garbage.

BTW - Finland was also not allowed the right to self-determination, which is why the Soviet Union invaded Finland.

Finland was almost uniquely recognized by the Soviet government as one of the few legitimate states to come out of the Russian Revolution. The Winter War was over border territory quarrels.

You imperialist defenders don't make any sense. Don't you think that might makes right, and so the stronger deserves to conquer the weaker? This is what happens in your businesses, why is that suddenly wrong in countries?