Alternate History Thread II...

[das]

There were some Jews around before the Enlightenment,

When I first read that, I thought you meant Jews at all. Would be weird for them to appear due to the Enlightenment...

but the Enlightenment era lead to the emancpation of the Jews throughout Europe.

We're talking about Jewish bankers, not Jews generally. Your average Jew's contribution to Europe wasn't much bigger then your average German's.

But, Jewish scientists did make many contributions to Europe's technological advancement that would have been delayed to a later date if it were left up for the rest of the population to discover it.

Most Jewish scientists were a) 19th-20th century and b) more humanitarian-inclined, in general (or physicists - but we delayed physics as well!). This only reinforces my point, you know.

I said that because there simply would have been less scientists around.

Why that? The percentage of scientists would probably not change much, its rather likely to be larger then in OTL (more practical science is likely to result in according political developments and support for science). This world would be less advanced philosophically and culturally, but the Industrial Revolution, for instance, will come much earlier.

The Enlightenment also liberated other European minorities that developed many important technological advancements that the World would have had to wate for if they had not been liberated.

Somehow I didn't get that refference. Whom else did it "free" (well, more like started the proccess leading to emancipation of)? I guess you might be talking about the Irish, but although their cultural contributions were quite notable, as far as science goes they don't seem to be very important, as compared to the Jews or the majorities of the great powers.

 

[Israelite9191]

You would be surprised how much little minorities have given to the overall spectrum of advancement. I know that this is a particularly bad example do to the exact topic, but look at the Hungarians. They were the largest minority in the Austrian Empire, but contributed the greatest amount of science and military strategy. They developed the cavalry tactics that would be used by every major European power form Napoleonic France to Austria. They also lead major developments in farming technologies and cross-breeding of wheat species. They lead development in several other fields, but I can't remember which right now. I am using the Hunarians as a test case. This is something that took place among minorities in many other areas of Europe. Lapps helped develop Scandinavian industry, the Scottish did the same in Britain, and Jews developed European banking. BTW, there were more Jews who became millionaires from banking than Gentiles despite the population difference, so I think there was a bit more influence among Jewish bankers. None of this woudl have been capable ifnot for the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment spured on the emancipation movements that would lead to the emancipation of these peoples. And don't get me started on the gifts of the Protestants in Catholic countries and particularly vice-cersa.

 

[das]

but look at the Hungarians.

But Hungarian scientists were notable well before the Enlightenment. This is not relevant. Not to mention that they were hardly a small minority, and quite equal in status, de facto anyway, before the Enlightenment.

Lapps helped develop Scandinavian industry,

Didn't hear about that one before. Source?

BTW, there were more Jews who became millionaires from banking than Gentiles despite the population difference, so I think there was a bit more influence among Jewish bankers.

The Jewish BANKERS. I know that they were important, I never said that they weren't. But they existed well before the Enlightenment.

None of this woudl have been capable ifnot for the Enlightenment.

Why that? The Scottish scientists, for instance, were also quite present before it as well.

The Jews are a special case - not because of any emancipations, but because of cultural-social changes within the Jewish communities themselves (Haskala).

In other words: still not swayed.

 

[Kal'thzar]

Das would you still do a timeline on it?

As in, better engineering, but science is worse?

 

[das]

Yes, I'll try... to which year should I take it?

 

[Kal'thzar]

Well, since we're leaving it to you, advance the timeline say 100-200 years from your PoD.

I think.

 

[Israelite9191]

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[das]

Still am curious about the Lapps, though.

 

[Sheep]

I am thinking about starting a nes in 1900 in a world where the Lousiana Purchase never went ahead and the Chinese were more advanced and discovered the West Coast of America at roughly the same time of Colombus.

 

[Insane_Panda]

They were advanced enough - they had ships 5 times bigger than anything the spaniards had, and 100 years before. Its more of a question of did they want to?

With all the internal problems facing China during the mid 15th century, Zheng He's great treasure voyages were forced to a screeching halt. Perhaps that will change.

Although, IMHO that alt-history has been thought of and rethought of 5000 times.

 

[das]

the Chinese were more advanced

What you need is the triumph of the "eunuch faction" in Ming China, ofcourse. Albeit for anamotical reason an "eunuch dynasty" is impossible, I do believe that in Song China there was a series of emperors who were effectively puppets of the eunuchs/courtiers. If we could repeat that in Ming...

 

[Insane_Panda]

haha. I beat you to it.

 

[das]

I started typing it first! I just took time to check up on the Song dynasty and eunuch influence therein.

 

[Sheep]

Perhaps I should talk to both of you on the creation of a suitable alt history, I am making the map and will post the first draft later tonight.

I will probably need cities and **** added soon enough.

 

[das]

Am anticipating.

Btw, Kal'thzar, I think I already have the outline for the "Unenlightened Althist" PoD and initial developments planned out, more or less. Will start writing soon. Are there any fans of Le Grand Conde here?

 

[Kal'thzar]

hey thats cool das!

and a what a' what what?

 

[Israelite9191]

Sheep- I recently, well, a few months ago, read an interesting book on the subject. If I am not mistaken the title was 1492, The Year China Discovered America. I know it sounds to out there to be true, but it was endorsed by PBS (America's public broadcasting for all of you out there who don't know what that is) which is publicly funded and has almost know financial influences, and is about the only American media source that is trustworthy.

 

[Insane_Panda]

its 1421, not 1492. Most historians think it BS.

 

[Israelite9191]

Sorry, the title is actually 1421, The Year China Discovered America

 

[Israelite9191]

Its actually a lot more accepted than many people think. The theory is the norm among Australian and East Asian historians and is becoming more common in America. The biological evidence is striking. The fact that the most common species of fowl in the Americas when the Europeans arived was native to Asia and not the Americas is striking. There are also numerous other animal and botanical transplants. Also, there is the practice of laquerware among Native Americans of parts of Central America and the usage of Chinese derived words for the names of such things as 'chicken', which as I mentioned, was found to have been transplanted by someone from Asia to the Americas by the arrival of the Europeans.