Alternate History Thread II...

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Such is my last name! Although, it is also the last name of many other vietnamese. I'm royal!

Quite. The French, in ATL, helped Nguyen Hue, Nguyen Nhac and Nguyen Lu (who were called "Tay Son brothers" because they came from that village) defeat Nguyen Anh.

EDIT: As for the NES... Do you think I should stop here and start working on the map, or should I take it further? I at first wanted to take it until after SGW, but decided that fighting that war would be interesting as well, especially as I myself am rather unsure as to who would win.

EDIT EDIT: If I am to start making the map, though, I would need NK and you to finish the work on the yet another final version of the map, okay?
 
EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT EDIT: Hurry up, please. ;) So, I assume that I should get working on the next TL while you prepare the map, right? I'm not very sure as to which one of my ideas I should develop this time, though...

1) An alternate War of the Roses.
2) Alternate East European diplomacy in 16th century.
3) An alternate War of Spanish Succession.
4) An alternate WWI (a different beginning with *slight* differences in the alliance system).

I was also considering something about an alternate Volkerwanderung - not the Roman era one, but the one with Indo-Europeans. But its a rather complex and immense undertaking, and I suspect that alex wouldn't like what I have in mind one bit, as opposed to say Finmaster... :mischief:
 
In this forum? I think there was an attempt at a NES set after the Persian Empire (which conquer Greece) fell apart due to internal rivalries and overstretchment, but a) the NES didn't last and b) I'm not sure about the precise PoD.
 
Well, Panda? Where is the map?
 
das said:
4) An alternate WWI (a different beginning with *slight* differences in the alliance system).

Like in ToukonNES I when my Italy went to the Triple Alliance's aid, as treaty demanded, and accomplished virtually nothing because my general (read: underling), Communisto, didn't send orders and the French front became doomed?
 
Volkerwanderung TL!

As said, that's a rather immense undertaking. On the other hand, it will rewrite history so much that Xen won't be able to complain much about it. The real problem that I have with that TL is that, while Europe is pretty clear, Aryan-dominated East Asia is not. I'm thinking something Tocharianesque, but then again Tocharians lived in the steppes and the Aryans will not limit themselves to just that I believe.

Like in ToukonNES I when my Italy went to the Triple Alliance's aid, as treaty demanded, and accomplished virtually nothing because my general (read: underling), Communisto, didn't send orders and the French front became doomed?

No, what happened was some damn foolish thing in the Balkans.
 
POD: Council of Constance

Previous Entries:

A brief interlude: The East: 1450-1490

Rus

Muscovy had been locked in civil war for much of the earlier half of the century; with Vasili II finally defeating all his rivals, it was finally over, and they had a few years of peace. This lasted about until the reign of Ivan III, later surnamed the Great.

Ivan III began his reign in 1460, and quickly grew into the fact that Muscovy was the predominant Russian state. His careful policies crafted a new Principality that grew and grew, nibbling away at the neighboring states carefully, not ever putting the Principality itself in any danger, but expanding it all the same.

Around the same time, Moscow proclaimed its status as the direct successor to Constantinople, and thus of Rome–the Third Rome, as it was. Armed with a new zeal and new ambitions, the Muscovy state had few rivals–the only serious one was Lithuania, who they could normally best in diplomatic confrontations. The future looked bright.

The Middle East

For their part, the Ottomans were far more active than the Russians in this time period. Secure in their European possessions after putting down twin rebellions by the Albanians and the Greeks, they were able to focus their attention on more Eastern matters.

Absorbing the Khanate of the White Sheep Turks, they spotted and quickly exploited the local weakness of the Black Sheep Turks, taking the region of Mesopotamia and destroying the army of the Khanate. With a swift stroke, Turkish dominion over much of the East had changed hands... and as it happened, this had larger results as well.

The Timurids were able to exploit the fall of the Black Sheep Turks fairly easily themselves, and the Khan Ulug Beg found himself in an easy situation. Turned away from his fairly cloistered studies by the demands of the real world, he turned his brilliance into managing to forge a united empire out of the Timurids, a new empire which allowed Shia and Sunni religious freedom. He had managed to stem the schism in Islam, and this meant his empire simply flourished.

Quickly taking what was left of Persia under their wing, a quick campaign into Khorasan (OTL Afghanistan) and Sind (the Indus Valley) brought those regions back under Timurid control. Another quick campaign into Central Asia felled the Chatagai Khanate, and the Timurids further expanded at the expense of the Golden Horde.

Back to the Ottomans, the Empire expanded exponentially in the 1470s. A striking campaign against the Mamlukes brought the downfall of that dynasty in only a year, and Egypt under Ottoman sovereignty. More campaigns brought the majority of the Arab world into the Empire, in fact, from Arabia to Morocco.

Indeed, by 1490, one might think that the Ottomans were fairly overstretched, and they would be right. Everything from Damot to Oman, from Hungary to Fez, had to be carefully governed lest it fall into rebellion, and if just the right set of circumstances were to happen...

******************

Introduction
The War of the Roses
Europe to c. 1450
Europe: 1450-1455
Europe: 1455-1456
 
Moscow proclaimed its status as the direct successor to Constantinople, and thus of Rome–the Third Rome, as it was.

When was Constantinople taken in ATL again? It would seem to be in Vasili I's rule... If we assume a similar "exodus" of Greek cultural elite in Italy and Russia as in OTL after 1453, it combined with the civil war in Muscovy is likely to result in a very different Russia, culturally (less developed, but also more independant). I do think Vasili II is likely to declare himself Tsar in this world as a further symbol of his victory. Just an idea, though - after all, he didn't do so in OTL...

Lithuania

What is the status of its relations with Poland in this world, anyway? Do they still get Casimir IV (well, an analogue thereof)?
Shia and Sunni religious freedom.

Personally I'm not sure why would he do that - Shiites are an insignificant minority in pre-Safavid Iran and Aizerbadjan. Could imrpove his relations with Mamlukes, I guess... slightly.

Also, how do Turks get Oman if Iraq is Timurid?

IMHO we need an European religious map, its hard to keep up with all those new-fangled heresies...

All that said, great timeline, go on. Its especially good to know that there is a lot of it left.
 
das said:
When was Constantinople taken in ATL again? It would seem to be in Vasili I's rule... If we assume a similar "exodus" of Greek cultural elite in Italy and Russia as in OTL after 1453, it combined with the civil war in Muscovy is likely to result in a very different Russia, culturally (less developed, but also more independant). I do think Vasili II is likely to declare himself Tsar in this world as a further symbol of his victory. Just an idea, though - after all, he didn't do so in OTL...

Constantinople was taken exceptionally early: 1426. I do think it would have affected the civil war in some form... But I'm lazy, and already wrote that part. So hah. :p

What is the status of its relations with Poland in this world, anyway? Do they still get Casimir IV (well, an analogue thereof)?

Royally married, fairly independent from each other. A little more tied together than Poland and the Hussites, but still not that tied together. Something along the order of Hapsburg Spain and Austria.

Personally I'm not sure why would he do that - Shiites are an insignificant minority in pre-Safavid Iran and Aizerbadjan. Could imrpove his relations with Mamlukes, I guess... slightly.

Religious tolerance can do wonders. :p

Also, how do Turks get Oman if Iraq is Timurid?

Iraq is Ottoman, sorry if that was unclear. Everything to its east as far as India and China is Timurid.

IMHO we need an European religious map, its hard to keep up with all those new-fangled heresies...

Catholics: Italy, Spain, France.
Fairly independent, not to the point of Protestantism, but evolving there since there is no Pope to keep them on a leash: Poland, Lithuania (officially), Scandinavia (split), England, Eire.
Hussite/Lollard/generally protestant in nature: The southern part of England, Scotland, Germany, Scandinavia (split), some of Poland and Lithuania.
Orthodox: Most of Lithuania's people, much of the Balkans, the Russias.

In short, it's fairly messed up. As is most of Europe's characteristics in this timeline.

All that said, great timeline, go on. Its especially good to know that there is a lot of it left.

Aye, thanks. FYI, I'd like #2 of your options below the best. :)
 
Ireland would have been religiously independent of the pope any way. They followeed the Right of Collumcille (Columba) not St. Peter. They were Catholics, they just formed a different Catholic Curhc from the Roman one with more independence than other Catholic churches (see Croatian, Ukrainian, and Scottish Catholic Churches just to name a few).

BTW, the timeline is really good. How you get all of that detail is beyond me.
 
do think it would have affected the civil war in some form...

Not neccessarily, that was a dynastic issue and titles don't change the matter much.

Religious tolerance can do wonders.

Problematically, the Turks seem to have conquered the only serious Shiite-ruled nation, the Mamlukes. The dissent amongst the Sunni fanatics will quite outweigh the benefits from reconciling with the Shiites. That said, if the Mamlukes are, like in OTL, left to rule for the Turks, this will have certain benefits for the Timurids...
 
They are waaaaay too many alternate timelines 1400-1900.You need to make some 20th century AltTL.
 
Go make one yourself! :p
 
How many 1400-1900 timelines are there? Joan of Arc, by das. Council of Konstanz, by me...
 
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