Alternate History Thread III

I don't know, maybe that the Bolshies weren't quite so dovish vis-a-vis the Germans, and tried to keep fighting somehow instead of signing Brest-Litovsk, which weakened their ability to beat the White Russian-type organizations, but also weakened Germany, which didn't launch the Kaiserschlacht without enough men to make it happen, and the war lasted slightly longer, with more power going to ultraconservative groups, and since Austria collapsed rather quickly the Germans were allowed to unify their entire culture as opposed to having Germany and Austria separate. This also ought account for how screwed up Russia and the vicinity is, I think.

...or I could be horribly wrong. Eh. :D
 
Dachs, I believe I already made it clear that the effect on WWI itself is negligible. ;) The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk still was signed; the PoD is somewhat later...

The German monarchy survived, excelent.

Not quite, it got overthrown but was now restored; sadly, internal political disagreements and the need to work with the Entente prevented a restoration of Wilhelm II (also, the Kaiser himself had some disagreements with the new German rulers); still, there are now rumours that the Germans intend to crown Kronprinz Wilhelm Friedrich soon, as the regime is secure enough by now, both at home and abroad.

However what's Von Papen's position in Germany?

He's the Foreign Minister, officially; he also enjoys great support in the military, though not as much with the civilians, and the rumours about the Kronprinz also say that von Papen is likely to become the new Kanzler once the Hohenzollerns are back...
 
One last shot in the dark at this, and then I give up-

Lenin died early?
 
das said:
Dachs, I believe I already made it clear that the effect on WWI itself is negligible. ;) The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk still was signed; the PoD is somewhat later...
Well, my knowledge of comparatively minor 1918 Russian Civil War happenings is rather low, mainly due to the lack of reference material thereon. ;)
 
Lenin died early?

Nein, though I did consider using this as a PoD. It does have something to do with Lenin. Ironically, one of his plans that didn't work in OTL worked here, but in the long-term proved more benificial for the enemies of the Bolsheviks than for them (though in this world it still was considered a limited success at least even in 1940)...
 
The Mensheviks don't join the anti-Bolshie coalition?

I assume the PoD is in January or February 1918, or at any rate before the twelfth of March, since Leningrad is still the capital.
 
The Mensheviks are irrelevant, we are talking about Lenin's actions here. And the PoD is indeed in 1918, but the capital WAS moved to Moscow - it only returned to Leningrad after yet another round of power struggles was won by RSFSR's present ruler, one Sergey Mironovich.

But that's rather irrelevant.
 
Actions taken or the subset of "policies implemented"?
 
Oh, it could be taken as either, really. Depends on what exactly do you mean under policies implemented, ofcourse...
 
By "policies implemented" stuff like the NEP or Stalin's Order 227. It's a subset of "actions taken".

This isn't getting anywhere, is it? I think we're all about ready to say uncle, no? :p

EDIT: I got through twenty-one Word pages' worth of more althist, but things have been generally trending towards a centralized Holy Roman Empire in the 12th century, which is the only direction I can imagine it taking under the circumstances but seems so wrong for the time. What else do you think I could try to do for it instead?
 
Nothing essentially wrong in a centralized (or semicentralized) HRE, actually, there were some tendencies in favour of that, though they'll probably have to get through a civil war first.
 
Yeah, a big one. It just feels a little weird in the 12th century, is all.
 
There were some more-or-less centralized empires in 12th century. None as large as the HRE, though... it will need a good messanger system, methinks.
 
das, looking at your 1940 alt hist, it appears Manchuria is a vassal of the Far Eastern Republic, and that Korea is too (due to thin borders), yet they have thick borders with each other - is Korea a vassal or not?

Also if any makes that NES the Far Eastern republic is so Mine!:D
 
They're both separate Far Easterner client states (BUT Korea isn't a Manchurian vassal; to avoid a mistake of this kind, I left the thick borders between the two).
 
das said:
There were some more-or-less centralized empires in 12th century. None as large as the HRE, though... it will need a good messenger system, methinks.
Yeah, that's actually playing a bit of a role...Having rethought modding stuff, I could also try to mod the 1940 TL one, since it's more conducive to NESing (w/o a timeline, I mean) instead of the British Revolution TL one, which will also take longer before it's even ready to have stats and map made up. Would that be all right with you, and would you make stats and add ECs (rules would be very similar to NES2 VI, methinks) if/when you have the time?

Also, I'm pretty sure no one's going to guess the PoD. Narrowing it down to 1918 Russia wasn't too bad, I suppose...Could you tell us? :p
 
...fine, one last guess. He doesn't have the Politburo or the Cheka created. Just tell us the right answer, pls.
 
Okay, basically the Bolshevik diplomats manage to get some more influence and recognition, and consequently Lenin's proposal for a peace settlement in Russia - that would've partitioned it into lots of tiny pieces by recognizing all the declared governments and thus splintering anti-Bolshevik opposition - was accepted. The peace didn't hold for long, many smaller governments were gobbled up over time; when Kolchak overthrew the Omsk government, the civil war begun with a delay. The Bolsheviks had more time to organize, and thus there was no need for War Communism or the OTL degree of terror; however, the same went for their opponents, who also received French assistance. Ultimately the Bolshevik offensives were stalled, and when Lenin died interfighting within the RSFSR begun, preventing further advances and allowing Wrangel to establish Yugorossia, though Kolchak was overthrown and betrayed by Semenov, who was at first set up as a Japanese puppet ruler in the Far East, but later betrayed them and allied with both local moderate socialists and with the USA (which was very concerned by the Japanese occupation of the Far East; in this world, the Japanese hold there was stroger and the Japanese more confident and sure that the Americans are bluffing). The Far Eastern War ensued; it was a long, brutal affair, and the Americans were on several occassions on the brink of giving up (due to isolationism and casualties). However, the burden on the Japanese economy was even stronger, and it begun to collapse; Britain, whcih at first wanted to support Japan, eventually decided to back down and allied with USA instead; China too declared war on the Japanese. Despite some land victories in 1928, Japan was ultimately defeated, thrown out of the Mainland, blockaded, invaded and finally occupied.

In Europe, Kirov eventually asserted power in RSFSR (after overthrowing Trotsky, whose ambitious public works and "worker armies" brought Russia to the brink of economic collapse, though the industry was boosted considerably, while the constant attempts to lit the world aflame had ultimately backfired too - a revolution nearly occured in Germany, but that ultimately provoked the rise of the Stahlhelm government) and moved the capital to Leningrad. He adapted a pragmatic NEP-like economic policy, and built up a modern military. Instead of throwing it at Yugorossia, he officially recognized Slashev's government (Wrangel was overthrown in 1926), allowing it to concentrate on Balkan affairs. Yugorossia, Hungary, Bulgaria and Italy formed a Mediterranean Axis, and fought a series of wars against Turkey, Yugoslavia, Romania and Greece, not destroying them completely due to Entente protests but generally cutting bits and pieces out of them (plus a puppet government was set up in Turkey, Ataturk fleeing to France). The Entente, outraged by this aggression, was on several occassions in the 1930s on the brink of war with the Axis; several naval and border incidents occured, and the tensions are yet to dissipate completely.

While all that occured, Kirov finally struck. In a trully epic, well-planned combined arms operation, making good use of airforce, navy, tanks, paratroopers and marines as well as conventional infantry and local sympathiser paramilitaries, the Red Army captured the Baltic States and Finland within two weeks. Using the shock effect, the Reds even tried to advance into Sweden and Poland, but at that point, their shock effect had ran out and meanwhile the Germans suddenly moved in; in exchange for territorial concessions, they allied with Poland and stopped the Russians half-way to Warsaw. After failing to overthrow the Ukrainean government, RSFSR troops fell back and dug in, holding on to most of their gains (including parts of Volhynia/West Belarus) apart from the Alands. The Germans had to accept that, due to the Entente fooling around and recognizing Kirov's gains. Fortunately for the Regent, that foreign policy triggered a right-wing reaction and more hardline, right-wing governments rose to power in Britain and France in the next elections. The Germans were allowed to annex Austria and the Sudetenland (triggering a failed revolution and general chaos elsewhere in Czechoslovakia, especially with a Hungarian invasion and suspected German clandestine operations; ultimately this caused a partition of Czechoslovakia, grudgingly accepted by Paris), and now apparently joined the Entente. But many questions remain unresolved, while to the east, Kirov is planning his next move...
 
Having thought some more of the Celto-Slavic Europe scenario, I have decided that it has great promise. Some more development is in order, ofcourse...

Firstly, we should establish some basics. I still think we shouldn't have a Roman conquest of Britannia, to make sure that the Celts remain strong enough. Germannia however will be conquered, and the Germannics, apart from those in Scandinavia, will be marginalized and later swept aside by steppe invaders, to be eventually finished off by the Slavs.

Also, as something of a butterfly effect, the more overstretched Roman Empire could die earlier (i.e. in the 3rd Century; Diocletian and other "Illyrians" were a considerable stroke of luck, i.e. improbable, though possible, by definition). I even have a more rational explanation - Germannics fleeing north will disturb the Scandinavians, the Scandinavians will in turn attack Britannia, and the Britannians will then take advantage of Rome's long Gaelic coastline, even less defended than usual due to the civil wars, and invade Gaul. Meanwhile, the Slavs will be pushed from the east by the steppe peoples (a constant factor), and invade Dacia and Germannia. And, ofcourse, the new, vigorous Sassanids will advance into Roman Asia (as in OTL, but more succesfully due to the general chaos), and Berbers will attack North Africa. And through it all, warlords will fight for the Roman Empire; sure, promising leaders will emerge and maybe will even come close to saving the Empire, but it will be too late. Plus the best of them will be gunned down by hitpolarbears.

So in the end, we will have separate Roman successor states in Hispannia, Italia, Graecia and North Africa, a Sassanid Empire in control of the Middle East (I'm thinking roughly Achaemenid borders in the west, including Egypt and Thracia), Celtic tribes and petty kingdoms in Britannia (those who had warded off the Scandinavians in the end) and Gaul, and Slavic tribes east of the Rhine and the Alpes (and north of Graecia - although I suppose they might conquer it, it would be quite interesting to a Slavic Greece, as Lord-Hegemon Krichevskoy will actually become plausible). Gradually, Slavic states will appear, but its quite hard to predict the exact configuration. Lastly, Germannics will held out in Scandinavia. The Bosphorus will be intersting - the Goths might actually hold out there, and become as Vikings for the Sassanids.

The Sassanid Empire will fall at some point, ofcourse. Arabs, Goths, Turks and rebels (especially Coptic Christians (I know they didn't split as such yet, but IMHO it is quite inevitable that the Egyptian Christianity will branch off from the other ones, especially with it being in disarray after the sudden fall of the Empire and the ensuingchaos)) will tear it apart. Also, one of the Roman rulers might rebuild the Empire - I think it will be especially ironic if the North African ruler, whose capital will naturally be Carthage, will be the one to reunite the Latin parts of the Mediterranean. Not sure about how viable that empire might be, but if the Byzantine example shows anything, then the "Carthagine Empire" might live on for millenias, as its geopolitical situation is considerably safer than the OTL Byzantine one (the Berbers aren't quite the same as Arabs, their population is much more sparse and spread-out. Then again, we DO have the Almoravid example...).

Particularily interesting is religion in this world - in Roman states, Mithraism and Christianity will compete, but Christianity's best opportunity in this world would be Egypt if the "Coptics" act fast enough when the Sassanids collapse. Egypt will be in position to take over the Red Sea, after which "Coptic Christianity" might take the niche of OTL Islam in the Indian Ocean (i.e. it will spread into East Africa, South India and Indonesia). The Celts might as well eventually adapt Christianity, in fact that seems quite likely, but it will be radically different from the Roman one. Slavs are more interesting; they will come under Roman Christian and Zoroastrian influence, and the southern ones will probably convert to one faith or another; the northwestern ones will be under Celtic influence, and will join the Celtic Church, most probably. The eastern ones, however, might form something else entirely. After all, Slavic Polytheism in OTL had good chances of replicating the Hindu success (there are lots of parallels between Hinduism and Slavic Polytheism anyway), and OTL attempts were made to turn it into an organized religion. Here, under even stronger Iranian influence than in OTL, there is a chance that such efforts will succeed...

Still, that's a pretty rough draft.

---

Separately from that, an altgeography idea - we already had a smaller/nonexistant Mediterranean Sea, but what about a Mediterranean Ocean (with a natural Suez Strait)? Sadly I am not all that good at this kind of althist, but we have some people here who are, so what do they think?
 
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