Alternative Timelines

@ rightfuture: ok how would those translate into useable buildings/units and where would they be situated? ancient golden age?

@ hoskuld: and i forgot to ask, what would prevent trading between tech lines past that initial tech. Would all steampunk era tech require the initial technology as a prerequisite?. And, as far as I can see, there's nothing stopping a steampunk civ from learning industrial age tech since those wont have an untradable marker unless the Prevent All Tech Trading option is switched from the setup.
 
Also possible models to use would be great. At the moment we appear to be limited to what graphics are available.

Has anyone tried to make use of the unit requests thread in the unit graphics forums? I can go beg for attention there now but it seems to be at the whim of the people who are there. It would be best if we could entice someone over here as our graphics guy/gal.

BTW there's a unit: mermaid in that forum in case you needed that for the fantasy module.
 
@ steampunk1880
I will definitely think these out and suggest some ideas

As far as alternate timelines go I think there are two distinct ideas that could be separately developed.
#1 Alternate Eras - groups of technologies that are switched on/off by an event, like a cataclysm: could be a religious event like a dark age, or an apocalyptic event like an asteroid strike, a nuclear event (not even a total one could be interesting like the tv show - Jericho), or a major disaster event that sets back civilization. New technologies could be coping mechanisms or interesting new explorations that come from an alien invasion, or discovery of a lost world, or new planet in advanced ages. It could be a toggle feature for those who want to play with them.
Technologies could be lost in a group randomly, or not lost at all. A Event like an old library discovery could bring most of technology back, and a major recovery could switch off the New Era technologies or leave them as part of the new way the world works. An event or a technological discovery could move you out of the alternate era with or without the enabled techs.

#2 Anachronistic technology - some technology is discovered out of sequence, like the wheel discovered early, or gunpowder. This could lead to some Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court scenarios, or what if World War II had modern technology (like the movie The Final Countdown). Lots of what if technology possibilities.

Just some ideas, What do you think?
 
I can fix a few issues here. *Age* Punk is a project not a wonder. There are a few wonders that can't be built if another on the list is in that city... ramp that up to a civilization and you can have the exclusive paths thing going. However, instead of making certain techs just unresearchable... make most of the stuff require the Mutally Exclusive Projects (MEPs) to be active. If you do research another MEP's tech through brute force research, theft, trading, or gaining it through concuring or and event... then you get to access to some the tech abilities. Promotions vs. that *Age* Punk. A few bonuses that apply to stuff not even relivant to the Civ that founds it... which is partial adaption to that tech via your own tech base.

Rewrite the tech chart so a cluster of tech paths reach the same exact pivital techs while allowing complete bypass of the other tech trees. Just to spice things up... some *Age* Punk tech trees cross over to make entirely new hybrid *Ages* possible. This means rewards for getting techs from other trees. Perhaps crossover sub *Ages*. *Ages* are only limited by Projects and your cumulative tech bases.

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Something else said early I want to touch upon, the New 'stone age' theory. The stopping block is that what is learned can't be unlearned. What you can do to bypass that is don't unlearn them. Use that Maximum combatability save type to canabilize the old maps (natural and Civ altered) to make a new map for a new game.

If the last cycle ended in Nuclear Fire, te map is full of toxic waste and leveled cities. Gray Goo over ran everything... have Gray Goo (damage dealing terrain) everywhere... to stop it old power sources must fail or be destroyed and the mess cleaned up. Bioweapon or nanotech make Zombies? Clear them out. Getting enough salvage together to make a flamethrower unit is a national priority. The trick is to make national units that don't auto repair/heal and abuse the (fake) resource system to have parts and goods to repair them to certain levels. These resources dependant on random old tech and supply catches, depletable ones at that, you don't get mines till you rediscover them... instead scavenger units sit on a resource sight and 'mine' that. If you don't have someone mining units of said resources, your suplies run low. Salvaged buildings, slvaged of several turns by workers and scavengers, mean kit bashed psuedo buildings of old stuff that works... poorly.

A new civics includes resorce distribution... priority towards keeping the computers in the bunker (city) alive or manpower going to farming or land reclaimation. A basic outline, but a place to start.

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The actualy reason dinosaurs are out is that the big ones require a different oxygen, CO2 build that current animals. Same reason giant super bugs don't work... they sufficate below a certain oxygen threshhold and can't get any bigger.
 
@Necratoid - I agree that some things that are learned cannot be easily unlearned. But with a collapse of civilization due to disaster or invasion, some things could be (temporarily) forgotten. Infrastructure collapse, could lead to the loss of complex skills, like power plant making, or certain technologies like how to make a space shuttle. An apocalypse can temporarily make certain technologies inaccessible, for example, a nationwide power outage could stop internet access, or access to a set of technologies from a certain point.

@steampunk1880 - I also don't think all ideas for alternate timelines should be buildings, some of these like the antikythera mechanism should possibly be a technology that lead to an advancing of eras or technologies. I'm just trying to think with y'all out loud.

I'm not too fond of dinosaurs or the idea of magic, but it could be a toggle option at the start of the game, and could provide alternative gameplay to those who want something more fantastic.
A lot of fiction is written off of this concept. The idea of playing a world with implications inspired by Jurrasic Park, or Harry Harrision's East of Eden series, where humans coexisted with dinosaurs, would be very fun to play as an option for many people I bet.
Eventually magic is just technology sufficiently advanced enough, like Arthur C Clarke said. Could provide possibilities at the end of the galactic era if people want to enable it then as well. Projector holodeck technology and nanotechnology could lead to technology which altered reality enough where people could exhibit "magic" in the real world. Techno-mages from Babylon 5, Jack Chalker's Four Lords of the Diamond series, uses technology to enable magic like effects with limitations in a very interesting way.

I would still prefer to focus on plausible science fiction, but some measure of fantasy options could be explored as a optional features which many people would like to explore, like alternative timelines, to determine realism of play. It would also give you all options to separate different units like mermaids, and less plausible technologies for those who want to see them, from those who don't.

There is an awful lot of alternate timeline fiction and science fiction out there. Someone should google it for more ideas on how it can be resolved.
I mentioned elsewhere in this forum that my favorite book is a time travel book where humanity goes back and rewrites history with interesting consequences.
It is Pastwatch: the Redemption of Christopher Columbus by Orson Scott Card
http://www.amazon.com/Pastwatch-Christopher-Orson-Scott-Card/dp/0812508645/

If timetravel could be figured out with past world saves reloading map, with current civ tech it would be very interesting....
Just some ideas, what do y'all think?
 
@rightfuture... I was refering to something mentioned like 2 pages back... I suggested the canabalized map new game thing as the problem with a 'new stone age' thing was that the game engine for Civ4 can't make you unlearn techs.

As for magic... "Any technology, no matter how primative, is magic to those that don't understand it".

So far this thread has treated the word 'magic' as a complete and total Gloobleflarg.

What is a Gloobleflarg, you ask? Any key term in a discussion or debate that no one ever gets around to defining. I find them utterly aggrivating. In this case I subspect an *Age* punk based around bluffing and theatrics as 'magic' wouldn't get a thumbs down.... a flare attached to a grenade and a spell which has the verbal components "Willie Pete sic'em!" Wouldn't get shotdown, I'd think.

I personally shoot large dinosaurs down due to them requiring a different atmosphere than anything else. Short answer... define what it is you hate. Stop tossing Gloobleflargs at the discusion.
 
@Necratoid - sorry about mistaken identity on the point. thought it was in reference to something I said.


I think magic shouldn't be avoided either. But as a fantasy concept, it should be addressed in a careful, alternative way so it would not spoil those focused on history or realism.
Galactic Era technology becomes at some point, magic. Many things become possible.
 
@Necratoid - sorry about mistaken identity on the point. thought it was in reference to something I said.


I think magic shouldn't be avoided either. But as a fantasy concept, it should be addressed in a careful, alternative way so it would not spoil those focused on history or realism.
Galactic Era technology becomes at some point, magic. Many things become possible.

'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'
- Authur C Clark
 
Hate that quote... its meaningless on its own. This is because 'magic' is a completely undefined term... A Gloobleflarg. While it probably, even likely, has a meaning in context... its treated as a statement in the wind. Granted this is a quote from the same guy who wrote the 'three laws of robotics' for a book in which they self destruct spectacularly... and people want impliment said laws, as is, and proclaim this as a good idea. These people miss the point of the book entirely.

Its also mostly repeated by people who treat 'Science' as a religion and 'magic' as the terminate on sight 'devil' of that religion. Real science is a series of processes for processing, gathering, and interpreting data, then testing the interpretations and testing them for repeatablity. A repeating cycle. Its entirely possible to discover something useful you simply can't explain at all. It works fine, repeatedly.... you just can't figure out 'why?' it works. Yet. This is Real science.

For the Science as a religion people, 'Science' is defined as things 'We of the great and one true religion of Science' claim understanding of or at least the priests do anyway. The rank and file can regurgitate it by wrote Its canon that is true and therefore 'Science'. 'Magic' is anything the priests haven't claimed dominion over with 'Science'. 'Magic' is bad and evil and malignant and no good at all... because its not 'Science'

That is the issue I have here. People proclaiming to 'Science' religion. In the past priests of religions loved this trick. The greeks had 'magic' temple doors that opened when you gave your burnt offering. What was happening is the burnt offering heated up water and the steam opened the doors trough expansion in a sealed container. Once the offering burnt off the fire cooled and the steam cooled to water... so the doors mystically closed on their own. They also had coin operated vending machines and automated story telling machines.

In short, the Greeks actually did the steam punk and clockwork thing before the Romans took over. They also had a flying Zeus statue... apparently it involved a room and statue and lots of magnets.
 
A call for input on units and buildings to attach to a clockpunk age!

if there are no objections I'd really like to try to use the method by which all special untis and buildings have prerequisite building "Tradition of Great Inventions" which is given free by Great Inventor's Workshop Wonder

please post any ideas you have WITH tech/resource requirements, WITH detailed unit/building stats, WITH a small description to go into the civilopedia.

stuff we already have

Unit: Clockwork Armored Cart
Stats: tracked unit, strength 25, movement 2, starts with blitz causes collateral damage up to 15%. -25% strength vs gunpowder units, -50% to attack cities. requires clockworks and gunpowder and Tradition of Great Inventions, requires copper and sulfur. Upgrades to early tank.
Civilopedia: Clad in thick but light copper plating these clockwork terrors of the renaissance are a product of fantastic inventive thought inspired by the great inventors of the past. Use them to smash infantry and cavalry in the field but don't expect it to be much use in the narrow city streets.

Unit:Scout Glider
Stats:flying unit with no ability to attack, only recon. Same range as early fighter. Can see invisible units. Requires physics, sails and Tradition of Great Inventions. Upgrades to early fighter.
Civilopedia: Taking a cue from the soaring type of bird, these canvas gliders built by our inventive geniuses can be held aloft for hours by thermal updrafts giving their pilots a clear lay of the land and our generals a valuable resource in scouting.

Building: Automaton Clock
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automaton_clock
requires Clockwork, Tradition of Great Invention
desc: An automaton clock or automata clock is a type of striking clock featuring automatons. Clocks like these were built from the Middle Ages through to Victorian times in Europe. Our tradition of inventive genius makes them far more common in our country than in others. The automatons usually perform on the hour, half-hour or quarter-hour, usually to strike bells.
Stats: 5% maintenance, 20% hammers, 1 happy, 3 culture, allows one citizen to become engineer.
Upgrades from town clock.

Building: Orchestrion Theater
http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/ggma...3_018_019.html
Requires: Realism, Tradition of Great Invention
desc: An orchestrion is a generic name for a machine that plays music and is designed to sound like an orchestra or band. Orchestrions may be operated by means of a large pinned cylinder or by a music roll and less commonly book music. The sound is usually produced by pipes, though they will be voiced differently to those found in a pipe organ, as well as percussion instruments. Many orchestrions contain a piano as well. In our age of clockwork, orchestrion theaters comprise enormous wall sized machines, usually complete with mechanical dolls moving in time to the music, and seats from which citizens can appreciate the works of our music roll composers.
Stats: 1 happy, 3 culture, 1 happy per 20% culture rate, .5 happy per 20% science rate, can turn 1 citizen into artist, one citizen into scientist, one citizen into engineer, one happy with dye.
Upgrades from opera house

Building: Step Reckoner Manufactory
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepped_Reckoner
Requires: Scientific Method, copper, Tradition of Great Invention
Desc: Step Reckoners are portable cranked mechanical calculators that can add, subtract, multiply and divide. They're a real step up from the abacus when it comes to calculating arithmetic. Other less inventive countries claim that the fiddly bits are impossible to make reliably but we managed just fine.
Stats: plus 3 gold; provides Good (Mechanical Calculator) in all cities trade route yadda yadda

Building: Good (Mechanical Calculator)
Stats: +1%hammers, +3% science;


Try to keep things balanced.
 
Hate that quote... its meaningless on its own. This is because 'magic' is a completely undefined term... A Gloobleflarg. While it probably, even likely, has a meaning in context... its treated as a statement in the wind. Granted this is a quote from the same guy who wrote the 'three laws of robotics' for a book in which they self destruct spectacularly... and people want impliment said laws, as is, and proclaim this as a good idea. These people miss the point of the book entirely.

Its also mostly repeated by people who treat 'Science' as a religion and 'magic' as the terminate on sight 'devil' of that religion. Real science is a series of processes for processing, gathering, and interpreting data, then testing the interpretations and testing them for repeatablity. A repeating cycle. Its entirely possible to discover something useful you simply can't explain at all. It works fine, repeatedly.... you just can't figure out 'why?' it works. Yet. This is Real science.

For the Science as a religion people, 'Science' is defined as things 'We of the great and one true religion of Science' claim understanding of or at least the priests do anyway. The rank and file can regurgitate it by wrote Its canon that is true and therefore 'Science'. 'Magic' is anything the priests haven't claimed dominion over with 'Science'. 'Magic' is bad and evil and malignant and no good at all... because its not 'Science'

That is the issue I have here. People proclaiming to 'Science' religion. In the past priests of religions loved this trick. The greeks had 'magic' temple doors that opened when you gave your burnt offering. What was happening is the burnt offering heated up water and the steam opened the doors trough expansion in a sealed container. Once the offering burnt off the fire cooled and the steam cooled to water... so the doors mystically closed on their own. They also had coin operated vending machines and automated story telling machines.

In short, the Greeks actually did the steam punk and clockwork thing before the Romans took over. They also had a flying Zeus statue... apparently it involved a room and statue and lots of magnets.

Actually what it means is that something achieved in a way you are totally unequiped to understand might as well be magic as anything. It is inexplicable within the confines of current experience. One explanation is as good as another in that context. See also 'outside context problem' (Ian M Banks)
 
@steampunk1880

My suggestion is starting a whole new thread on your category so the ideas stay better contained and not lost amongst whatever else appears in this thread. ;)
 
Would there be any objection to me starting a thread for brainstorming techs, wonders, buildings, units and overall ideas for the ancient golden age, steampunk, retro space age, biotech and nanotech/cyberpunk ages? A preview:

"This is a thread for brainstorming techs, wonders, buildings and units for the proposed alternate histories: Ancient Golden Age, Steampunk, Retro Space Age, Biotech, and Cyberpunk and debate on their overall design philosophy (IE. how they are different from their contemporary alternative)

Suggestions that are not objected to in 24 hours or whose objections have been resolved to the satisfaction of both parties go up on the list. Objects on the list will be credited to their original suggesters.

When making suggestions about technologies it is helpful but NOT necessary to also suggest what tech(s) the technology may come from and what it may lead to, what buildings, what wonders and what units might be attached to it but ask that you say what alt history it belongs in and include a civilopedia blurb about what it entails. Suggested format below:
Tech name - Intended Alt History
Requires:
Leads to:
Wonders:
Buildings:
Units:
Special effects:
Civilopedia:

When making suggestions about wonders it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, what alt history it belongs in, it's proposed effects, and a civilopedia blurb about it. Suggested format below:
Wonder name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/building/resource
Effects:
Civilopedia:

Buildings are similar
Building Name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/buildings/resources
Effects:
Civilopedia:

When making suggestions about units it is helpful but NOT necessary to link them to a tech but we ask you to include other building and resource requirements, what alt history it belongs in, a detailed account of the units stats including what category it is, and a civilopedia blurb about it.
Unit Name - Intended Alt History
Requires: technology/building/resource
Stats:unit type(flying, gunpowder, high tech)/strength, speed, first strikes/bonuses or penalties/free upgrades
Civilopedia:

The object is to get as many ideas up in a coherent list as possible and worry about putting them together later.

While we are brainstorming connections can be made in the following way:
Hey I think unit X belongs under tech Y. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*
Hey I think tech 1 should lead to tech 2. I agree. Me too. *relevant entries have been changed*

Changes to existing entries are made in a similar fashion.
Hey I think Building A is too powerful/not powerful enough and should be This Way. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor if he/she has any input about the proposed changes. Everyone agrees? *relevant entries have been changed*"
Hey I think Unit Alpha is redundant/no longer fits and should be removed. I agree. Me too. Let's ask/PM the original contributor how he/she feels about that. Everyone agrees? *entry deleted*

Following that would be a number of posts reserved for each of the ages to have their own spot.

Or a separate thread for each of the ages.
 
@Koshling, as true as that is... most people that quote that Clark quote use it wrong, at least in my experience. I already gave an example of the prime offenders I've encountered. They effectively meme'd the quote to gibberish.

Anyway, moving on... unless we have an *Age* of the 'Science' religion pop up, which with a 'new stone age' reboot game makes lots of sense. They knoww just enough to be dangerous, but not enough to be compitant.

The greatest example of an 'outside context problem' I can think of is the Cargo Cult. Basically after WWII natives on some islands stopped getting free stuffs from the US planes using the islands for air bases when the troops moved on. After the freebies stopped coming they got the idea they did something to offend the gods in the metal birds... and spent the next few decades building psuedo airfields and planes in an attempt to appease and lure back the gods and thier glorious metal birds full of free stuffs. In short a welfare based religion... though it can be argued they all have a side job as an accidental artist cult.

Again with a 'new stone age' mod a perfect type of thing if you added a single city Civ that talks to no one but keeps dropping in supply crates to the tribes and deals with extra pop by spending all its effort constantly building and launching off space ships that take large chunks out of the population. Maybe a fortified island with fixed borders and a fleet of end game ships and units. If they aren't building ships to dispose of extra population, they build random 'care packages' that area air dropped by an unlimited range unit. 'Care Package' drops are increased by that civic/religion and their terrain improvement for flat land with no trees... this improvement is a wooden/lashed together sticks and vegitation thing that looks like the dropper flying unit... though once you get a source of iron someone makes it out of metal (auto upgrades itself) and your concidered less in need of 'care packages'.
 
If nobody objects I'll start making threads for brainstorming on possible (but not definitely included) techs, civics, wonders buildings and units for the Ancient Golden Age, Steampunk, Retro-future, biotech and nanotech/cybertech ages.

And then we can use this thread to talk about designing the game mechanisms to implement these ages when we get around it it

But first:
Hydro you have suggested using wonder combos or events to initiate alternate timelines. I've thought about that stuff and I offer a compromise? What if for every alternate timeline there were two wonders. Building either one triggers a Quest type event where you have to build x number of buildings before you reach a certain tech or other milestone. If you succeed, the event gives you the initial tech to the Alternate Timeline which, Ori says can be made to put a huge malus on all the techs of the corresponding Main Timeline. And something about teaching the AI to respond to xml tags so on the off chance that they succeed the event they aren't stuck trying to research a tech that now takes forever to get. If you own both wonders you get one free tech as a bonus.

A really rough example:
Retro Future Age
Triggering Wonder: Manhattan Project
Quest: build 10 bomb shelters before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Other Wonder.

Triggering Wonder: Other Wonder
Quest: build 10 Other Building before you know Elelctronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Manhattan Project

Obviously needs work but illustrates the idea. I know it's not quite like your ideas but would ensure it happens only very rarely like you prefer (I think) and only happens with effort on the human players part and luck on the AI's part.
Question: how might you stop the two quests from interfering with each other.

One last thing. I was looking at the flowchart in the OP with the biotech age and the nano age somehow swapping back and forth and all leading to the galactic age and thought for a while on how that could be streamlined for gameplay. I had this idea that's almost certainly a bit of work and would alter the stuff you've already done so only if you guys really like it. I mean I think it's awesome or I wouldn't be entertained spending hours typing about it.

at the end of the Modern Age the tech tree branches in three ways: Biotech, Galactic Tech and Cybertech. If you research the first cybertech technology the biotech branch is blocked off via Ori's Method and vice versa each representing alternate mutually exclusive paths a future society may take.

The Cybertech line will focus early on robots, automated factories and quantum and optical computer stuff improving city output, then on cybernetic bodies and war mechs, then mind uploading leading to a SCIENCE VICTORY at the end via something like the Ascension Gate wonder themed to moving to cybernetic consciousness.

The Biotech line will focus early on cloning and environmental stuff improving terrain yield, then artificial life and bioweapons, then supermen leading to a SCIENCE VICTORY at the end via Ascension Gate wonder themed to biological perfection.

The Galatictic Line is not restricted one way or the other by how you choose to guide your future society because it focuses almost exclusively on technological developments of your society in space. The Arcologies will be included in this line to be available to both sides and for being more like achievements in physics and engineering than in your chosen homeworld society. Heavily pursuing the Galactic line will ultimately lead to SPACE VICTORY as you build and assemble the parts for an interdimensional colony ship (which is the Alpha Centauri ship by another name.)

Meanwhile the Retro-Future/Retro Space age (accessible from the early part of the modern age or from the end of the steampunk age) does it's own thing off to the side. Techs contemporary to the modern age would include improved atomic reactors, atomic cars, jetpacks and huge vacuum tube mainframes. This transitions into forbidden planet style robots, robot maids, automated houses of the future in the late modern and early bio/galactic/cyber ages, before ultimately culminating in The Jetsons Style arcologies and an abridged Buck Rodgers galactic age leading to another SPACE VICTORY with another interdimensional colony ship.
 
Hydro you have suggested using wonder combos or events to initiate alternate timelines. I've thought about that stuff and I offer a compromise? What if for every alternate timeline there were two wonders. Building either one triggers a Quest type event where you have to build x number of buildings before you reach a certain tech or other milestone. If you succeed, the event gives you the initial tech to the Alternate Timeline which, Ori says can be made to put a huge malus on all the techs of the corresponding Main Timeline. And something about teaching the AI to respond to xml tags so on the off chance that they succeed the event they aren't stuck trying to research a tech that now takes forever to get. If you own both wonders you get one free tech as a bonus.

A really rough example:
Retro Future Age
Triggering Wonder: Manhattan Project
Quest: build 10 bomb shelters and 10 physics labs before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Other Wonder.

Triggering Wonder: Other Wonder
Quest: build 10 Other Building and 10 other-other building before you know Electronics to receive (retro future tech). Bonus free tech if you own Manhattan Project
disclaimer: quote has been slightly modified

Hydro, Ori, I would some kind of tentative yes or no on this. Hydro because it's most likely him that will do most of the building work, and Ori because would want to know if it's really doable. It would be very helpful in desigining alternate histories by allowing me to suggest cutoff techs beyond which a civ going through an alternate history would no longer be able to research. For example, I would like to suggest that a steampunk civilization be able to learn military science, steel, steam power, thermodynamics and medicine but no further until they return with the first tier of modern technologies thus giving a better idea of what kinds technologies in the steampunk era we can start with(aerodynamics+improved steam engine=steam blimps, the first of the airship line), what tech's we'd need to mirror the industrial age but slightly differently(some kind of electricity related tech, steampunk sanitation) and what kinds we'd need to stop with to slide relatively smoothly into the modern era (steampunk-electromechanical computational engines-->modern-computers)

less important is approval on the second half of that post which would allow me to potentially start sorting the post modern techs we have now into bio, space, and cyber related and start filling in the gaps with appropriate techs to keep the two opposing sides relatively even from start to finish: ie. for most cybertech technologies there should be an equivalent biotech tech and vice versa with the difference being that, as a design philosophy, cybertech improves more in cities and biotech improves more in terrain.
 
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