AltHist: English Crusade

RalofTyr

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What if Henry the VIII's protestant declaration thereby removing the Catholic faith from England, was cause for the Pope to declare a Holy War against England?

Would all of Europe Respond? Or just a few countries?

Could Europe be able to conquer and defeat the Protestant England?

Would French and German Protestants join the English cause?
 
Very few European countries would respond. Most of them had their own troubles at the time. The more devout might, but none of them could really do anything, and it would probably be for show. Scotland might respond, and was in a position to do some damage in Northern England, but that's about it. There is the possibility of volunterr armies of course, but I doubt they'd be much of a threat to England, of all places.

If a Crusade took place, England wouldn't stand a chance. It couldn't hold off all of Europe, especially given the internal problems the denunciation of Catholicism created. But I suspect it would last longer than its enemies would expect.

Protestants elsewhere probably would take up the English cause, turning it into some sort of Mecca or Rome for Protestantism. But not all of them, and not enough to protect England from a Crusade. Anglicanism is different from the other Protestant belief systems, after all. It could make Europe an interesting place though, with a Protestan religion centred in London facing off against a Catholic religion centred in Rome, with borders meaningless to both groups. Be a fun alt-hist scenario, that's for sure.
 
Spanish Armada, a few decades ahead of time. I mean, the fleet that attacked england in 1588 was fairly international and crusade-like at that point to begin with. Can't imagine a crusade in name would be surprisingly different.
 
Spanish Armada, a few decades ahead of time. I mean, the fleet that attacked england in 1588 was fairly international and crusade-like at that point to begin with. Can't imagine a crusade in name would be surprisingly different.
Against a slightly weaker Royal Navy and a slightly stronger English Army...hm.
 
There would be very few states able and willing to do this. Without going to into it Alot of europe was already protestant at the time. So Sweden attacking them would be out. So would denmark. The Holy Roman Empire isn't really a nation state. Local princes had much more control then the emporer and many of them were protestnts just for the sake of expnding their own power. That leaves Pretty Much France which wouldn't attack them because despite bing catholic wouldn't attack to spite the hapsburgs. So thier pretty much would only be spain attacking nyways.
 
Against a slightly weaker Royal Navy and a slightly stronger English Army...hm.
Well, if anyone could cock this up, it'd be the Spanish. They'd sail the ships into some rocks for some reason.
 
This is an interesting idea. But I think the reaction of other Protestant states would depend upon when we're talking about. Remember that Henry VIII was not a Protestant. When he made himself head of the Church of England, he did not do so out of any Protestant conviction, and his own writings on theology indicate that he always remained a Catholic in pretty much every respect apart from his attitude to the Pope and his headship of the church (admittedly a rather important point). It was his advisers and others who subsequently took the opportunity to use Henry's novel approach to church-state relations to usher in a quiet ecclesiastical, theological, and liturgical revolution along Protestant lines.

So my point is - if this Crusade were preached immediate after Henry's break with Rome, would the Protestant states regard Henry as an ally at all? They would probably think that anyone in trouble with the Pope was to be encouraged, on general principles, but I don't think they would regard themselves as theologically obliged to ally with him. Conversely, would the Catholic states see this as a religious matter? I don't know enough about this period to say, but I should think that, at least initially, they would regard this as a spat between a Catholic monarch and the Pope. And there's no guarantee that every Catholic state would necessarily support the Pope in this spat - after all, plenty of Catholic monarchs had had such spats in the past, and found plenty of allies in other Catholic monarchs. I suspect that if a Crusade were preached against England immediately after the Act of Supremacy, Henry might at least have the possibility of convincing some of his fellow Catholic monarchs that it was in their best interests to have a Catholic Church that answered to the monarch in each state, not to the foreign Pope. Perhaps he could build an alliance of his own, fighting for a sort of federalist Catholic Church instead of an ultramontane one. This could be, effectively, Gallicanism and Febronianism a hundred and fifty years early.

I don't know which, if any, Catholic states could be persuaded to go along with this (although I assume the French would be open to it) because, as I say, I don't know enough about this period. But it would be an interesting scenario. Among other things, if this did happen and Henry VIII and his allies were to present their war as a war for reform of the Catholic Church rather than as part of the Protestant movement, I should think it would mean that the Church of England would never become Protestant at all. Henry would not want any suggestion that his church were to be reformed along Lutheran lines, for fear of alienating his allies. If he lost the war, then, the Church of England would probably be re-absorbed back into the Catholic Church. If he won (or if he lost after a sufficiently long period), the relation between the Church of England and the Catholic Church might end up being rather like that between the Catholic and Orthodox churches today, but without the differences in practice and belief. And perhaps there would be similar autonomous Catholic churches throughout Europe if the same thing happened in the states allied to Henry.
 
As already mentioned France might have been appealed to that idea. Moreover the current emperor of the Holy Roman Empire - Karl V. - was said to be "more catholic as the Pope" and ruled HRE as well as Spain. Therefor at first glance the idea of a Holy War against England may appear not that unlikely. A closer analysis, however, shows that it never would have happened.

The Reasons:
- France and Karl V. had quite a difficult history (wars and stuff) and were therefor not likely to work together to bring down a rival of the Frensh.
- Despite of Karl's strong faith also the Pope can not be considered a friend of his. He supported France against HRE, troops of the HRE later pillaged Rome and even detained the Pope for a while (though Karl did no really like the first part he did not hesitate to make us of the second).
- Karl V. was enough occupied with the Protestantism in his own territory.
--> HRE and Spain would never have gone down that road.
-The Turks were far more a concern to the Pope as some English ladykiller. In 1529 they almost conquerd Vienna.
- To conquer England would have been highly expansive and laborious (thanks to their neat Island) - IMO to highly for troops of volunteers.

but I don't think they would regard themselves as theologically obliged to ally with him.
I don't think theology ever matterd for the real importent decisions. They were about influence and power.
 
- France and Karl V. had quite a difficult history (wars and stuff) and were therefor not likely to work together to bring down a rival of the Frensh.
Henry was actually allied to France during the War of the League of Cognac a few years later (1526-30), worried at how powerful Charles V had become since his victory at Pavia the year before. A Franco-English 'rivalry' between the two Hundred Years Wars is kind of hard to discern. :p But yeah, power-politically, I can't see France combining with the Habsburgs for any purpose, and if Henry successfully presents his program as a Catholic reform one like Plotinus thought (though admittedly this reduces the booty he can claim from plundered monasteries) the French might even be co-opted, and the war would simply take the course of yet another of the endless Italian Wars.

Where's the Strategos when you need him...;)
 
A Franco-English 'rivalry' between the two Hundred Years Wars is kind of hard to discern. :p
My bad :blush: I thought England and France cultivated a similar hostility as it did with Germany. :mischief:
Well in that case, not even France would have liked to go on a little Holy War. Seems really nobody cared for invading England at the time. :D
 
...if Henry successfully presents his program as a Catholic reform one like Plotinus thought (though admittedly this reduces the booty he can claim from plundered monasteries)...
Unless the dissolution of the monasteries was considered part of his reforms of the Church. Indeed, the prospect of theologically justified booty could be just what he needed to make a few allies! It's not like monarchs were every particularly fond of monastic orders; they possessed great wealth and yet existed outside of secular power structures, and had little use except as scribes and administrators, something which by that time, evidently, they were far from holding a monopoly on.
 
Interesting concept, Plotinus.

France, under any strong monarch, (Francis I for one) would definitely have had strong incentives to lean toward Henry in that sort of scenario - Catholic or not, France has never been strong on the concept of temporal powers of Rome.
 
Unless the dissolution of the monasteries was considered part of his reforms of the Church. Indeed, the prospect of theologically justified booty could be just what he needed to make a few allies! It's not like monarchs were every particularly fond of monastic orders; they possessed great wealth and yet existed outside of secular power structures, and had little use except as scribes and administrators, something which by that time, evidently, they were far from holding a monopoly on.
"No worldly wealth for the otherworldly Church"? :p It'd make the Renaissance less interesting, though. :(
 
"No worldly wealth for the otherworldly Church"? :p It'd make the Renaissance less interesting, though. :(
I thought you hated the Renaissance? Considering that absolutely classic: "Only to people indoctrinated by the Renaissance" comment.

How come no-one thinks of poor little old Scotland but me? For that matter, how would the Irish react to their English overlords - at least in theory - being declared an enemy of the church? Might be some serious uprisings there.
 
I thought you hated the Renaissance? Considering that absolutely classic: "Only to people indoctrinated by the Renaissance" comment.
If I hate anything, 'tain't the Renaissance. :p
Sharwood said:
How come no-one thinks of poor little old Scotland but me?
John Knox? He's 1540s, though. Scotland, IIRC, has been temporarily incapacitated by the defeat at Flodden Field, and doesn't make a serious push until the OTL 1540s (with the rather disastrous defeat at Solway Moss). I suppose they could make a try, but the English army of Henry VIII is actually relatively good (but ridiculously expensive). Doubt they'll be able to do much more than put pressure on the English and prevent them from moving to French assistance on the Continent for a year or two.
 
Surely the Irish were no more fanatically Catholic than the English were in Henry VIII's day, were they?
Yeah, but they were also far more fanatically anti-English than the English.

The Scots might be able to pin England down, assuming the Spanish do something this could create problems. But I don't see anyone bothering England that much, as I said in my first post. I just felt deeply offended for my Scottish brothers that no-one was mentioning them!
 
What is Spain going to do with a conquered England? I suggest we avoid pie in the sky concepts like Spain actually managing to put and hold a Hapsburg on the throne - excluding the possibility of a marriage alliance with a female Hapsburg sitting as Queen. It would seem to me to be far more likely that some of the English grandees faced with defeat or having been defeated would cut a deal with the Spaniards. The terms of the deal would probably be nominal suzerainty, one of them would probably have to accept the throne with a Hapsburg bride, Anglicanism would be smothered at birth and reintegration into mainstream Catholicism would be fairly quick. Practically I don't think the Hapsburg could maintain a large enough standing army to dominate England with the complicity of the local grandees. England would likely slip the Hapsburg noose within a decade or two after picking a moment when Spain was otherwise engaged.
 
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