Always War Charlie

[Pangaea]

Is there some trick to creating Hemispheres maps? Either it's utter garbage, or there is one other AI on the continent, max 2, or there are 3+ continents despite selecting "2".

Also tried the RandomScript thing, and selecting Hemispheres, but it could create all kinds of weird stuff, like 4-5 continents and what looked more like Archipelago.



Easier to make Pangaea/Fractal maps, but people mentioned Hemispheres earlier, so figured that could be a decent choice.

 

[Windsor]

Is there some trick to creating Hemispheres maps? Either it's utter garbage, or there is one other AI on the continent, max 2, or there are 3+ continents despite selecting "2".

I usually pick massive continents and "islands" rather than "tiny islands" on hemispheres.

But I never really liked that mapscript.

I wish we had a better selection of mapscripts for Civ4.

 

[Pangaea]

Been trying to find a map the last hour, but it would probably have been faster to create the map from scratch myself

Seraiel suggested Julius, but I can gladly take somebody else. Which would you prefer BiC?

I've tried to find something on Fractal instead. It can give all kinds of weird stuff, but at least 80% isn't automatic throwaways, which seemed to be the case with Hemispheres. But Julius+iron+ivory? That's a bit much. I'm not sure how 'good' it should be though. The current clearly was on the tough side, but how much farther in the other direction should we go? Should there be natural blocker spots for instance? Copper or iron? Gold?

My Alt-G buttons may be broken.

 

[Pangaea]

On early plays :
Is it better to have 3 cities and The Great Wall or 5 cities ?
I'm not so sure that 5 cities is better. It's well possible the wonder will translate into a better game.

That's a tough question, and it depends on the map and its layout too. 5 cities so early, like you have, is strong, but given the choice I may have gone with 3 cities + GWall instead. Makes it easier to get out GGs, and protects you from barbs, plus means you can get an early GSpy for infiltration/Scotland Yard. However, 3 cities+GWall is what I did in my game, and it still went pearshaped

I was a little worried by those early non-hill cities of yours, but maybe you can make it work.

 

[Seraiel]

Of course, no one intends to lose this map on Deity, even though Pangaea was oh-so charitable to provide the save. Losing on Immortal is fine enough.
This map, obviously, should be harder than the previous one, because of the weaker start. There are less options available at the start and opportunity costs rise faster.


On leaders, call me a jerk : I don't think Julius or Sitting Bull are anything special
I'm not opposed to playing Rome, though. It just wouldn't be anywhere near my top10 picks.
I don't think you need a pure warmonger to do well/survive on AW. I had my first try with Elizabeth.

You don't value Praets high enough imo. . In an AW game they're War Elephants that cost less, that only need IW and not Construction and they even get defensive bonuses + they're the best attacking unit I can think of 'til Rifles.

Lizzy is the economically best leader, but as I haven't played AW yet I don't know if the economical problems are worse than the survival ones .

EDIT :
On early plays :
Is it better to have 3 cities and The Great Wall or 5 cities ?
I'm not so sure that 5 cities is better. It's well possible the wonder will translate into a better game.

I'd definitely say 3 cities + the GW. Doshin wrote that a player really should play an EE and he wrote it in a kind that suggested that an EE is really the only viable choice, which matches what I think about AW. An EE without the GW means you need CoL. Ofc. oracling CoL would have some nice advantages like i. e. getting a Religion early, but is it even possible to oracle that tech + survive against possible early attacks? I read once that the AI needs quite some time 'til it attacks, but when it has its 3-5 cities + units better than Archers it will .

Been trying to find a map the last hour, but it would probably have been faster to create the map from scratch myself

Seraiel suggested Julius, but I can gladly take somebody else. Which would you prefer BiC?

I've tried to find something on Fractal instead. It can give all kinds of weird stuff, but at least 80% isn't automatic throwaways, which seemed to be the case with Hemispheres. But Julius+iron+ivory? That's a bit much. I'm not sure how 'good' it should be though. The current clearly was on the tough side, but how much farther in the other direction should we go? Should there be natural blocker spots for instance? Copper or iron? Gold?

My Alt-G buttons may be broken.

Imo. Julius + Iron + Ivory isn't op. Ivory is nothing more than +1 for Julius. Idk. , but I'd not want to play a map where I know that I'll have Iron in the BFC, I just want to not know but it needs to be certain that it is at least reachable, because Julius without Iron doesn't make sense, it'd be almost like playing Tokugawa ^^ . If you ask me, I'd really like to have 1 Gold or make it a Silver if you think that Gold is too much. 1 Happy and another ancient happiness reasource is imo. only fair, you don't need to delete all kinds of things on the map that make it fun to play ^^ . If the general consensus is, that 1 Gold is really "too much" then I also don't know. If Immortal AW is really more difficult than normal Deity, I find normal Deity without Luxuries already ridiculously tough, even Deity with luxuries is not 100% winnable. Create a map that makes fun, like LH-lake + 1 Crabs 1 Fishes + 1 Gold + Plains-Hill, a Furs in reachable distance and a Silver if expanding aggressively or wet Corn + 2-3 FPs + a Gold or Grassland Cows + Plains Hill + dry Corn + 2 FPs + 1 Gems. The last imo. already is hard, because Gems give no production and neither dry Corn nor Grassland Cows are OP. Maybe the Plains-Hill is a little because afaik there are less maps with a PH start than ones with 1-2 early Luxuries. How about Wheat + Incense + Stone(d) (to those that don't understand it, good that you don't) .

I'm against any sort of natural barriers, I already didn't like that in those OOC-AW-games, it's basically defend the chokepoint, that doesn't has to do with skill imo. . Having 1 Happiness + 1 in reach + 2 decent food is really not like it would be a HoF start, HoF starts begin at two wet Corn + 2 Golds .

 

[Pangaea]

Just a small comment while reading your post, while eating some food.

In AW, AIs will attack with only archers. They don't need a strategic resource first. It plays differently to 'normal' games

 

[pigswill]

Its a lot easier on monarch.

It's also better to be lucky than good (e.g. popping gems in capital T35).

Spoiler :

More luck. Ramses founded Hinduism, built SH and shrine before I captured Thebes. I also captured Sury's capital with Pyramids (!), which I promptly razed (!!!).

 

[Seraiel]

Just a small comment while reading your post, while eating some food.

In AW, AIs will attack with only archers. They don't need a strategic resource first. It plays differently to 'normal' games

'til which turn is one usually safe, or which techs can you research before needing to tech Archery if not finding Bronze? When I read 3 cities with GW or 5 cities than that sounds like a lot is possible still in the beginning. Wonders going later is an advantage making AW-games almost too easy btw. Do you have evaluated typical AI GW and Oracle dates for AW-Immortal already?

 

[Pangaea]

NEW MAP. And I sincerely hope it's a more enjoyable and less hair tearing experience

 

[pigswill]

@Seriael. "Wonders going later is an advantage making AW-games almost too easy btw"? After Pangaea commented that Immortal AW is harder that standard Deity? Can you really avoid playing this game?

 

[Pangaea]

'til which turn is one usually safe, or which techs can you research before needing to tech Archery if not finding Bronze? When I read 3 cities with GW or 5 cities than that sounds like a lot is possible still in the beginning. Wonders going later is an advantage making AW-games almost too easy btw. Do you have evaluated typical AI GW and Oracle dates for AW-Immortal already?

Haven't played a lot of AW myself, so don't have a lot to go on. But like in normal games, wonder dates can vary a lot, depending on AIs on the map, and what resources they have access to, but of course also RNG calls, and perhaps whether barbs are messing up their stuff, so they change build orders and such (I've seen AIs build a wonder, then change to something else, and then go back to building the wonder again later).

For instance, in the current map, I managed to get Oracle around 1200BC if memory serves, while BiC lost it already around 2400BC. That's a pretty big variance. But I was lucky.

People say that you tend to have until around 1000BC before more serious stacks will invade your lands. But that is by no means a hard and fast rule. I've been invaded by serious stacks before that, and sometimes later. But you definitely need some way to defend yourself by at least 1000BC.

 

[Seraiel]

@Seriael. "Wonders going later is an advantage making AW-games almost too easy btw"? After Pangaea commented that Immortal AW is harder that standard Deity? Can you really avoid playing this game?

I already decided on playing the upcoming game Pangaea created .

But I'm not the guy for the ultra-harsh extra-hardmode, I'm completely happy with completely owning all AIs and winning Space at 695 AD ^^ .

 

[Rusten]

Walking a slippery slope now. Guaranteeing things like iron in the BFC or close nearby doesn't appeal to me. Getting too similar to HoF games where you cook the settings so much in advance that you know what you're going to do before you even begin playing. As opposed to finding the right answers as you tread along.

 

[Seraiel]

@ BiC:

Oracle + GW, fine, but Julius can build 2-pop-Courthouses and hire Spy-Specialists in all cities while Augustus can choose between the HE and the NE wonder after the mentioned first two ^^ . And yes, Shock-Axes, but Praets are even stronger than them. The Praet is not just a Swordsman, it's the Praet, a +2 STR ownage-machine ^^ . It's imo. too long ago since you felt the difference between the weak normal Swordsmen that die to Archers and Axes and the mighty n00btorian, that gets 97% chances against Archers in the offense and stays as the best (!) possible unit until Rifles!

Seriously, make a test-game and look at the odds and calculate the cost-efficiency, there's really not even one unit that beats the Praet, except the Longbow in a purely defensive city situation, but in the situation that Pangaea described as difficult so huge stacks and siege, the Praets are the unit that storm out of the city and simply kill the attackers ^^ .

I agree though that Mansa is a strong choice and I like that the new game is set up with him. All of the other leaders you mention appear as good non-AW-leaders, because seriously, what advantage does Hatty has? Cheap Libraries with playing an EE? War Chariots as defenders? And Elizabeth is basically as good as Charly 'til the point to which Pangaea played.

 

[Seraiel]

Walking a slippery slope now. Guaranteeing things like iron in the BFC doesn't appeal to me. Getting too similar to HoF games where you cook the settings so much in advance that you know what you're going to do before you even begin playing. As opposed to finding the right answers as you tread along.

I didn't demand BFC-Iron, I only wrote that it's ok if it's unknown and that Iron needs to be in reach somewhere. Playing a game with map-knowledge is always stupid but Rome without any Iron in reach is a waste.

And HoF isn't as you imagine, playing that far out of the box means you need to constantly search for right answers to questions that only the fewest players even ask themselves. Yes, you know you'll have two Golds, but do you know how to reach Sushi at 500 BC? My experience is 4y old, even I would have to find the way towards that again. HoF really has nothing to do with going extreme risks or playing as many maps until the chosen strategy fits, it means having a good start, knowing that and how one will win the game and apart from that it's a competition at least on the level of GOTM and all players have the same advantages, so the advantages of both players negate each other and both are equal again.

Play the current Gauntlet Rusten and then tell me again that you'd have known everything from the start .

 

[Pangaea]

On HoF, I see Rusten's point to be fair. All starting capitals are extremely good (MapFinder), and when you start playing you typically take some fairly big risks in the beginning, and if it doesn't come off, then you start a new map with a fantastic capital. If you play with Persia and don't find horses nearby, you simply start again. It's very different to playing a 'normal' game with whatever you are given.

That said, once you get past a certain point in the early-ish game, everything is as in a 'normal' game, and you don't take silly risks any more. And for games that last 300 turns or whatever, those first 30-50 turns isn't all the game is about. It simply means you get off to an excellent start.

One unit that can be a pain for Praetorians is the Dog Soldier. Especially Shock Dog Soldiers.

 

[Gumbolt]

Did Bic give up on this start??? I have to say 1 corn vs previous gold, 2x pigs and rice with flood plains looks horrible. I can see why Pangea has created a new map.

The player needs to stand a chance!! Monarch level should be easily possible. Then again on Monarch games you can usually wipe out 2-3 Ai with just HA as they are much slower to expand. Especially if you choke with warriors/chariots.

 

[Lexicus]

On HoF, I see Rusten's point to be fair. All starting capitals are extremely good (MapFinder), and when you start playing you typically take some fairly big risks in the beginning, and if it doesn't come off, then you start a new map with a fantastic capital. If you play with Persia and don't find horses nearby, you simply start again. It's very different to playing a 'normal' game with whatever you are given.

Well, I don't play HoF but I do 'cook' the map settings by reloading and regenerating a lot. I simply don't find the game very fun if there's not good land to expand into and I can't see the point of playing eg Rome without iron or Mongols without horses in reach. The last game I played as Rome, iron was so far I didn't actually get it until I already had Maces (which were sufficient for a rush that secured the win).
Just a different way of approaching the game, there is no right or wrong answer here.

 

[Pangaea]

@ BiC

Spoiler :

Really well played so far. I'm impressed Especially at controlling Egypt as well as you have. The issue in my game was that he got copper and a few axes and spears, and despite some desperate attempts, I couldn't pillage it. That meant I couldn't do jack about Ramesses.

I read the Wang game from way back, and in later attempts I saw that people would settle cities way out of whack, to claim resources (of course they knew about them then) and lock off land. Looks like you have done much the same here, and I can certainly see the point with that. Perhaps even more so here, when the east is free (though you'll have barbs to struggle with).

I think you are 100% right that hunting for the Oracle only hurt me. Getting the GW is probably still viable, I hope, but it would be better to expand faster and secure some spots, rather than get a free tech with the Oracle, that I pretty soon couldn't use for much good anyway.

I'm still a bit worried about your lack of hill 'frontier' cities, because I got utterly pummeled by stacks by 1AD, but with so much land already, you should have the production soon-ish, so maybe you can make it work. If you get Thebes, you'll also have metal and access to spears and axes, to counter Vultures and such.

Maybe I got too hung up on getting those defensive hill cities, and should have expanded harder instead. Interesting to see how you have played, and that you put so much time and thought into decisions, even on saving 1 workerturn per cottage on grassland v FP. Doubt I would do that, as I simply love FP cottages

Having a woodie2 (even two!) is also of great help. I didn't get that here, but did in the Mansa game, and it is such a huge difference maker.

Not sure if I want to go back to this map since it owned me so very, very hard But if I do, I'll try to take some lessons from your game and adapt my own. AW is still new to me, and I need to adapt more to harder REX in the beginning, maybe even ignoring settling close to the capital, like I usually do, and go farther out to secure land that can later be backfilled (or in-filled ). Like you say, it's better to do this while you can, because soon enough the AIs will have cities all over the place, and grabbing cities from them is nigh on impossible early on, at least once they get metal.

Good luck with the continuation here. Looks like you are off to a very strong start (even more so if you manage to get Thebes and all its food + copper). That said, it's not a defensive spot, so may be hard to defend later, unless you find a good hill spot over there.

Have played the Mansa map to almost 1000AD now, and in both that and the Suli map I managed to Oracle Feudalism. That makes things so much more manageable. Here I only had archers to defend with, and that simply cannot hold up for long when swords and catas arrive, no matter how well promoted they are. If I try to replay this map, I'll need to get IW earlier, and hope there is iron nearby.

edit: Actually, in one of your pictures, is one of the chariots near the lake west of Thebes parked on top of a hill? That might serve as a defensive point against Sury, fed by the corn in inner ring.

Great start, and good luck

 

[Pangaea]

A little question btw:

Spoiler :

Did you know you'd kill the Fish by settling Nuremburg where you did? I knew about that Fish, so wanted to place a city to grab it.