Amazon goes insane: LOTR prequel series incoming

[Ajidica]

Regardless of what Amazon does, their show will likely be criticized if it strays away too much from Jackson's vision, but focusing more on diversity and female empowerment should be a welcome change to Lord of the Rings.

I'll be honest, saying there is a lack of 'female empowerment' on LotR is another way of saying "I never read the books and only watched the battle scenes". A good quarter of the Silmarillion can be retitled "Why Elu Thingol is an idiot and needs to listen to his wife." Freaking Luthien. Lady Haleth of the Haladin. The Appendices feature Galadriel - arguably the oldest elf still in Middle Earth and easily the wisest - going full First Age Eyes-Bright-with-the-Light-of-Aman Noldor and casting down the walls of Dol Guldur, and in the books her counsel to Frodo is arguably the biggest reason why he declines to give the Ring to Boromir or go to Minas Tirith. Eowyn is one of the few characters to get an actual character arc from her desire to die in battle to realizing there is goodness in life worth living for.

 

[Evie]

TBH, I feel the books did female empowerment *better* than the movies. Book-Eowyn's arc is shafted thrice over in the movie in favor of more Hollywood Hero Aragorn (up to and including Eowyn needing a Heroic Male Savior Aragorn after taking down the WK), Movie Arwen's character arc is a pretzely fiasco that somehow manage to take "Arwen is passive and does nothing in Rivendell" and make it *even less* empowering by making her literally lovesick to the point of being a damsel in distress without anyone even trying, and Galadriel's status as the real power of in Lorien and probably the greatest single power in Middle Earth beside Sauron got moved over to give us An Army Of Manly Elves; we only got to see anything like the true power of Galadriel (for crying out loud, there are notes by Tolkien where Sauron himself considered her his match, or as close as it could get, and from the appendice, she pretty much destroyed Dol Guldur by herself) in the wrong trilogy.

And I say that as someone who loved the movies, but god did the secondary characters get bowled over to make room for our Heroic Heroes and the bumbling friends they have Meaningful Conflicts with.

 

[Ajidica]

Yeah, the movies were outstanding adaptations, but they had some problems with the minor characters. Poor Boromir and Faramir got shafted.

With regards to Galadriel, of the names elves in Middle Earth, only Glorfindel or Cirdan the Shipwright are possibly older, and Galadriel is definitely wiser and more powerful. Glorfindel may have slain a balrog in single combat and Cirdan doomed to be last elf to leave Middle Earth, but Galadriel is a kin of Feanor and lived alongside Melian. It's really only once you start into the background Tolkien worked out do you realize how awesome Galadriel is and how in Lorien one gets a sense of what life was during the Years of the Trees.

 

[Takhisis]

And I say that as someone who loved the movies, but god did the secondary characters get bowled over to make room for our Heroic Heroes and the bumbling friends they have Meaningful Conflicts with.

Tolkien himself was a veteran of trench warfare in the first World War. He himself was against war and also the Companions of the Ring are sort of a footnote around which larger things happen, of which we only see the battles in Rohan and Minas Tirith because Aragorn, Legolas, Gimli, Merry, Pippin and Gandalf manage to individually find themselves present to witness it, but meanwhile the ‘great battles’ e.g. the aforementioned Dol Guldur and Mirkwood, and also the fact that out of five Maiar sent to see off Sauron you see only the fallen Saruman and the reborn Gandalf while the deeds of the other three happen off-screen (and more!) tells us that it really is a world war that's going on out there and we're just only seeing snippets of it, including, of course, the key event of the destruction of the One Ring.

 

[Ajidica]

I'll be honest, I found the 'world war' aspect of the appendices one of the poorer parts of LotR. It felt too much like a world war 2 battle list and drew me out of the world.

 

[Evie]

And then you get Nature of Middle Earth and you have it black on white:

"When Sauron visited Eregion he sees quickly that he has met his match in Galadriel - or at least that in her he would have a chief obstacle."

Which make sense. I mean, her brother (who didn't receive Melian's tutelage) fought a legendary duel sung spells with Sauron in the First Age and though he lost held Sauron at bay for a long time...and Galadriel is thousands of years older and has been tutored by a Maiar (Who is the mother of Luthien. Who...well, Sauron probably doesn't have very fond memories of her).

Oh, and also, that'S the book that finally spells it black on white that the Northwest of Middle Earth was NOT the only region to fight back against Sauron ; the East also offered formidable resistance, that greatly diminished his attacks against the west.

 

[Takhisis]

I'll be honest, I found the 'world war' aspect of the appendices one of the poorer parts of LotR. It felt too much like a world war 2 battle list and drew me out of the world.

Well, yes, those are too dry and read like a history book rather than a story.

Oh, and also, that'S the book that finally spells it black on white that the Northwest of Middle Earth was NOT the only region to fight back against Sauron ; the East also offered formidable resistance, that greatly diminished his attacks against the west.

Re: the Blue Wizards… and Radagast?

 

[Evie]

The People of Middle Earth notes on the five wizards suggested it, but Nature of Middle Earth is specific (discussing the War of Sauron and the Elves):

"Thus it was that though, as soon as his disguise was pierced asn he was recognized as an enemy, he eserted all his time and strength to gathering and training armies, it took some ninety years before he felt ready to open war. And he misjudged this, as we see in his final defeat, when the great host of Minastir from Numenor landed in Middle Earth. His gathering of armies had not been unopposed, and his success had been much less than his hope. But this is a matter spoken of in notes on "The Five Wizards". He had powerful enemies behind his back, the East, and in the Southern lands to which he had not yet given sufficient thought."

Combined with the Notes on the Five Wizards, which specify that the opposition to Sauron they stirred had impact well into the wars of the Third Age, this opens a crack in the door to glimpse something far more diverse than monolithic Sauron worshippers in the East.

 

[Takhisis]

Oooh, I've never read Nature of Middle Earth. I never had the East as monolithic since I'd read about the blue wizards. But I've just remembered a nearly throwaway line about how all races except elves fought on both sides at the end of the Second Age. Which, interestingly, would place orcs where…? Trolls and Balrogs, too, now that I think of it.

 

[Evie]

The most common interpretation of that line is that it's just hyperbole.

But that's boring, so I did some in depth thinking about that one. And ultimately what you understand living to mean becomes really interesting. And whether you allow some grouping (eg, "even birds and beasts" would seem to imply some birds and some beasts on each side, not some of every species of birds and some of every species of beasts). Undeads (Nazguls) are definitely out, animated entities (which Tolkien noted stone trolls might be) are probably out. Imcarnate Maiar (Balrog) may not be considered alive.

The other aspect of the questionn is- when was that phrase coined, in universe? The text itself (Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age) is clearly a fourth age text, but it also appears to draw on older source and that sentence may reflect something like an early third age perspective (presumably before Hobbits entered recorded history). So it would be limited to things known to be alive at that point in-universe : no Balrog (tought extinct until Durin's Bane emerged and was identified), likely no Dragons (hiding in the north until much later in the third age), no hobbit (not known to recorded history until about TA 1000), likely no Ent (considered legends until the time of the War of the Ring), no watcher in the water (not known until the War of the Ring), etc.

but Orcs.... Orcs remain the conundrum with that phrase.

 

[Takhisis]

I did say races, not all the living. Otherwise you'd have to include caterpillars and ferns.

The conundrum with the Orcs stems mostly from Tolkien dying before he could settle on what they were. He went back and forth between their being corrupted children of Ilúvatar (Elves, maybe Men) or spawned. If they were spawned then Melkor had the power to give life which comes only from Ilúvatar (Aulë and the Dwarves notwithstanding), but if they are corrupted they are free-willed, at least originally, which poses problems of its own.

 

[Ozbenno]

I thought in The Silmarillion, Tolkien said that the original Orcs were corrupted elves.

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, but The Silmarillion is a book made by Christopher Tolkien collating and editing Tolkien's various writings into one single work, and therefore choosing between the contradictory versions of this or that particular event.

 

[Gelion]

I think the primary evidence for that can be found in LoTR when Gandalf (I think) says something along the lines of "the evil cannot create life, it can only corrupt it. Just as orcs were "created" to be a mockery of elfs, trolls were created to be a mockery of ents".

 

[Takhisis]

Yes, but how did the ‘creation’ happen? Did Melkor corrupt existing creatures? Did he put part of his power into them? (Sauron weakened himself by putting his power into some of his works and permanently losing it after the destruction of the One Ring)

That is what Tolkien never quite settled on.

 

[Gelion]

Yes, but how did the ‘creation’ happen? Did Melkor corrupt existing creatures?

I think thats what Gandalf meant when he said it, so, for my money, thats a canonical interpretation.

Did he put part of his power into them? (Sauron weakened himself by putting his power into some of his works and permanently losing it after the destruction of the One Ring)

This part is debatable, but depending on which parts of Silmarillion were done by Tolkien himself,I think it is possible that Melkors power went into entire species and not individual creatures. Silmarillion I think directly mentions that Melkor's power diminished going into his "creations".

That is what Tolkien never quite settled on.

I really don't know the story of the creation of Silmarillion, my understanding was that it was mostly done and that only parts were needed to be filled. Christopher might also have had insider knowledge from conversations with his father about some of these things.

 

[Clubber Lang]

Title revealed for the new LOTR billion bucks show and there's gonna be 20 bling rings...

‘Until now, audiences have only seen the story of the One Ring’: details announced for Lord of The Rings TV show

The most expensive show of all time reveals the title of a prequel that’s set to feature 20 different rings of power

The mystery shrouding Amazon’s new JRR Tolkien adaptation has lifted slightly, as the show has revealed its title. The multi-series epic will be known as Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power, setting viewers up for an on-screen representation of a new Middle-earth story.

“The Rings of Power unites all the major stories of Middle-earth’s Second Age: the forging of the rings, the rise of the Dark Lord, Sauron, the epic tale of Númenor and the Last Alliance of Elves and Men,” said showrunners, JD Payne and Patrick McKay, in a statement accompanying a video that shows the programme’s title being forged in a blacksmith’s foundry.

“Until now, audiences have only seen on-screen the story of the One Ring – but before there was one, there were many … and we’re excited to share the epic story of them all.”

Filming of the first season took place in New Zealand, with the second series due to begin shooting in the UK after a surprise decision to move countries.It is widely believed to be the most expensive TV show of all time, with Amazon beating Netflix to a $250m (£207m) deal with the Tolkien estate, HarperCollins and Warner Bros to acquire the rights to the fantasy story. It is reportedly spending around $1bn on the adaptation, over a multi-series deal expected to run to at least five series.

In 2017, a Tolkien expert working on the Lord of the Rings adaptation confirmed that Amazon didn’t have permission from the author’s estate to use the bulk of the material from his novel – and, so, the plot would not cross over with the Peter Jackson movies. As a result, the series will be a prequel, set thousands of years before the novel and the book that precedes it, The Hobbit.

Details of the plot are scarce, but Tolkien’s the Second Age begins after the banishment of the dark lord Morgoth. It ends with the first demise of Sauron, Morgoth’s servant and the primary villain in The Lord of the Rings, at the hands of an alliance of elves and men. Amazon’s synopsis describes the show as, “beginning in a time of relative peace”, stating that it will “follow an ensemble cast of characters, both familiar and new, as they confront the long-feared reemergence of evil to Middle-earth.”

The teaser video features a speech known as the “Ring Verse”. Given that it references 20 separate rings, it seems likely that the Prime series will feature 20 rings of power, unlike the one featured in previous adaptations.

Its first episode is scheduled to premiere on Amazon Prime Video on 2 September, as well as being simulcast in 240 countries.

 

[Takhisis]

In 2017, a Tolkien expert working on the Lord of the Rings adaptation confirmed that Amazon didn’t have permission from the author’s estate to use the bulk of the material from his novel – and, so, the plot would not cross over with the Peter Jackson movies. As a result, the series will be a prequel, set thousands of years before the novel and the book that precedes it, The Hobbit.

 

[Clubber Lang]

 

[Gelion]

as they confront the long-feared reemergence of evil

Americans love this plot it seems.