Amazon goes insane: LOTR prequel series incoming

[Evie]

It's hard to determine where in time we are exactly because of the compression. Sauron hasn't even occupied Mordor (1000 SA) but Miriel is queen and Numenor falling (3255 SA),

Most of the time indication say it's been several centuries since the end of the War against Morgoth, not millenias. My reading is that we are about 1000 years into the Second Age, and the eventd of the later age are being compressed. If so, Galadriel is about 1500 years removed from the flight of the Noldor - but still whatever's left of the second age plus the entire Third Age (3018 years) removed from the Galadriel who could refuse the Ring. Much closer in age to the former than the later.

And Galadrie's struggles with pride were a thing late in her life - she herself admits she long desired to possess the Ring, and it's still a momentous test for her when she's offered it. And even in LOTR she's not especially diplomatic - she relies on mind reading far more than talking (also implied by the failure of her plans to have a Gandalf-led white council rather than a Saruman-led one), and she has one of the Three to help her at that point.

Now, it's true that even this Galadriel wouldn't do one thing, and that's falling for Sauron's entreaties. She wasn't taken in by Annatar, so if Halbrand is Sauron, yes, this interpretation of Galadriel would be out of line. Tolkien's clear on that.

But I'm in the camp that sees Halbrand as a future Witch King or King of the Dead more than Sauron. Because having Sauron randomly wander the ocean on a raft until he stumbles on the one needle in the watery haystack who can help him infiltrate Numenor would be such horrible characterization as to make any criticism of Galadriel seems empty in comparison. Plus, Sauron has a LOT he needs to do on the mainland before imprisonment on Numenor.

 

[EvaDK]

Yeah, Halbrand isn't Sauron. It doesn't square up and I'm pretty sure the show writers won't put in elements that directly contradict major canonical events or characters. Our first glimpse of Sauron should be in the appearance of Annatar, an elven 'bringer of gifts'. Halbrand seems headed for a completely different character trajectory.

 

[Evie]

I mean, it's very possible we've seen Sauron already - but Halbrand is very low on the suspect list even among the mystery characters (Stranger, Adar, Halbrand).(Right now I'd say if one of the Mystery Characters is Sauron, Adar is most likely, Stranger kinda unlikely, and Halbrand very unlikely).

And I wouldn't be surprised if we've seen Sauron already and he's NOT a mystery character - either hiding in the background being innocuous or even impersonating someone we think is above suspicion due to us believing they're actually canonical.

 

[Synobun]

And I wouldn't be surprised if we've seen Sauron already and he's NOT a mystery character - either hiding in the background being innocuous or even impersonating someone we think is above suspicion due to us believing they're actually canonical.

Sauron is actually the Harfoot that banished that family to the back of the caravan.

 

[EvaDK]

I reckon the character of Adar is related to Saruman's lecture as to how the first orcs came to be; they were created by Morgoth from twisting elves into orcs via dark magic. That's why Adar remembers Beleriand and why he can speak Sindarin elvish. That's why the other orcs call him 'Adar'/father; because he's one of the first orcs created.

 

[Evie]

That's my *prefered* take on him also - I really hope that's the angle they're going with.

But his "not a god, at least not yet" line is channeling Sauron, hard. Very plausible red herring, the same as Halbrand and the forge and the Stranger/Meteor/Sauron connection, but Adar is the one with the least argument against him being Sauron right now.

 

[Kyriakos]

I reckon the character of Adar is related to Saruman's lecture as to how the first orcs came to be; they were created by Morgoth from twisting elves into orcs via dark magic. That's why Adar remembers Beleriand and why he can speak Sindarin elvish. That's why the other orcs call him 'Adar'/father; because he's one of the first orcs created.

Maybe @r16 was after all right about how the term "orc" was thought up by Tolkien

 

[EvaDK]

Maybe @r16 was after all right about how the term "orc" was thought up by Tolkien

The term and basic idea of 'orcs' predates Tolkien's works; however the concept of orcs most broadly used in fantasy literature & film since Tolkiens novels were released, are mostly derived from how Tolkien described and imagined them. The elves also; Tolkien borrowed the word and basic concept of elves from Norse mythology and created his own version of elvish cultures and creatures.

 

[Kyriakos]

The orc language in Tolkien seems to have some striking similarities to another -rc entity, is all

 

[r16]

yeah , a topic to inspire me to say ı don't accept this lot as well , so that ı will be banned or something . Like if a / the war happens , ı will be bombarding people from the orbit ; when people get me banned to stop me posting here . Yeah , ı barely glimpse the echo chamber where they like hate the new shows as a matter of routine but ı have noticed Galadriel is reportedly a teen who swims an ocean to prove a point ... Don't care , in the Civ field Mordor is doing the Ring of Power wonder within 20 turns , Moriquendi is the top AI , can hurt Harad a little more , cross the ocean , kick Galadriel hard and kill Mordor in the next 30 or 50 turns .


discussion wise , yeah , if there is a need of proof of Tolkien to be declared a saint by Vatican , stuff will be available , even if we are the orcs and whatnot .

 

[Evie]

I see the days of me not understanding a single thing you say have come to a middle.

As I've noted to some other people, Galadriel deciding to try and swim the ocean make some sense once Elven metaphysics are taken into account. Elves, when they die, go to the Halls of Mandos for a time, and then are given a new body in Valinor, the Western Lands. They (with the very rare exception named Glorfindel) cannot leave Valinor again, but that's generally true of any elf going to Valinor, including living Elves going there by boat. Such as Galadriel was doing to begin with.

Jumping off the ship and hoping for a miracle then is actually the better option, when the worst case scenario is just going exactly where the ship was taking her anyway.

 

[r16]

discourse without context is meaningless is the first fancy thing ı learned . ı don't watch movies/series on the internet ; am still a relic of the times when that would be too much on the connection . The echo chamber ı follow for the news doesn't like "woke" things , the discussion presented it as a girl throwing a tantrum . Which does not become godlike things or whatever . Can't say anything myself .

just a confirmation and what not , it might have been a lot worse because it really could have been with rather more dire depictions . It was perhaps Plotinus who explained maybe a decade ago that Orc was something bad in English language way before Tolkien but ı claim precedence over any pretension of Russians in this regard .

(and just to make a statement , ı will also note that JJ Abrams created Maz Kanata only to become a h ntai subject and he was so successful that the first page of search with minimal inquries produce 3 hits on the official action figure)

 

[EvaDK]

Elves, when they die, go to the Halls of Mandos for a time, and then are given a new body in Valinor, the Western Lands. They (with the very rare exception named Glorfindel) cannot leave Valinor again, but that's generally true of any elf going to Valinor, including living Elves going there by boat. Such as Galadriel was doing to begin with.

I think this only applies to the elves after Arda/the World is made spherical, as a consequence of Ar-Pharazon attempting to invade Valinor.

 

[Evie]

I mean, it’s technically possible to sail back in the second age (as Glorfindel makes clear), but it’s also quite clear Glorfindel doing so is an exceptional case, so my interpretation is that sailing from Valinor to ME is a general no.

That is, it’s physically possible but would require the Valar themselves to stamp your passport.

(And that work just as well for elves who died, since the two elves whom we know went from Valinor to ME after the flight of the Noldor, Luthien and Glorfindel, both died in order to reach Valinor. So again, a bit of a wash for Galadriel.

 

[EvaDK]

Yeah perhaps. I'm not entirely sure about 'the rules' myself.

I wonder if they have the rights/permission to do something with the tale of Beren & Luthien, since it directly connects with Finrod. I doubt it though, since it's First Age.

 

[Evie]

They should have permission to use any part of it that surfaced in Aragorn’s telling at Weathertop, but not stuff outside that or the appendices.

 

[EvaDK]

So... after episode 5, I've tried to connect the puzzle pieces we can see so far. This might be far out and proven completely wrong by the next episodes, but here goes:

- if Gil-galad is worried about the elves fading and intend to stop it from happening - is this what informs Celebrimbor to forge the rings, or more precisely, the three elven rings? Because at least one is made from mithril and we know that the rings are imbued with powers that 'halt the passage of time' and offer protection for the elven realms in Middle-earth. So, Gil-galad and Celebrimbor need mithril from Durin in order to forge the rings and they use Elronds friendship with the Prince to obtain it?

But it might go deeper than that - if the above holds water, is it actually a masterplan already set in motion by Annatar (Sauron), whom we simply haven't seen yet, but is already working in the shadows in Eregion and Lindon? If so, I can imagine the writers having a laugh at all our theories about what character is actually Sauron in disguise, because they are all so wrong.

Am I crazy here?

 

[Evie]

A very possible scenario, although Sauron getting to Gil Galad would be quite the departure from Canon. Also the Elven three are supposedly the ones Sauron had no hand in creating, so there is that. But doubtless the Elven decay will play into the forging of the Elven Rings.

"An off screen Annatar advising Celebrimbor" was one of my top Sauron theories already, and remains there. Halbrand looks less likely now, the Stranger is back in the race (though frost and Sauron are seldom associated in the books, but the only people in ME with notable cold magic links are Morgoth and the Witch King, both of whom are highly improbable for obvious reasons - and Sauron was previously traced to Forodwaith by Galadriel), Adar is still very possible (him flipping out over the name means nothing; Aragorn notes in LOTR Sauron does not permit his minions to speak his name), but perhaps too obvious.

Very meh feelings about the new origin of Mithril, mostly becsuse I cannot conceive why there was any need to change the fate of one of the three Silmaril for it, seeing as "a silmaril sank into the depths of the earth, its light reached into veins of silver and turned them to Mithril" would have worked *exactly just as well* and involved far less changes to canon. Possible the part about the battle will later turn out to have been elven legend.

If the elven legend about the battle does turn out true, then Adar seems a likely suspect to me for the Elven warrior who touched a Silmaril and fought a Balrog...and ended up not so pure after all.

(Or, time-traveling Gandalf, lol? I mean, the batt'e of Hithaeglir sounds a lot like the showdown between Gandalf - wand-elf - and the Balrog, ported back a couple ages early.)

Also, the clairification by Galadriel that Finrod was killed by servants of Sauron is nice in terms of aligning the previous broad outline more closely with canon.

 

[EvaDK]

I'm with Nori on the Stranger; he's a force for good. Not so much the three 'cultists' hunting him. I noticed the armored one with red hair has human ears, so I reckon they are all human or humanoid creatures. The 'Dweller' seems to have magic capabilities of some sort.

It's worth noting that the new origin legend of mithril and its connection to a Silmaril, is legend only. Elrond doubts its authenticity, regardless of Gil-galad using it as if it could be truthful. So, they showrunners might not actually be changing canon regarding mithril and the Silmarils; they could just be adding a legend that has its use as a means of persuasion - and nothing else.

Yeah, it was nice to see Galadriel acknowledge Finrods demise in more detail. It was also nice to see her come clean with Halbrand about how she is essentially considered an outcast and zealot by her own race. Just like Elrond comes clean with Durin about his ambition and visa versa about the stone table (which was hilarious). Durin is probably my favorite character thus far.

 

[Evie]

I want to agree with Nori, but then again, Nori's mind seems to have gone in a very different place after that last scene (of course, that was largely self-inflicted on her part, a helpful reminder that her act-first curiosity has its limits).

Yes, the possibility that it's a legend is definitely there. And unreliable narrators are hardly new to Middle Earth (see: Baggins, Bilbo and the One Retcon to Rule Them all).

Durin is, indeed, awesome, though Disa is the one leading the favorite characters list for me. After PJ's "Dwarves are comic relief", these two are very nice to have.