Amazon goes insane: LOTR prequel series incoming

[Evie]

I mean...there's no canon map of second age Middle Earth that gives precise location, just a handful of quick sketch of the general shape of landmasses. And the maps that do exist put Ost in Edhil in

What's canon is that travel from Ost in Edhil was so frequent that the West Gate of Moria existed primarily for it, and that it was kept open at all times for those travelers (Gandalf state all that when they arrive at the Gate in Fellowship), and that the road between the two followed the Sirannon river. That doesn't indicate a long and unsafe road. Far from. That's a clear cut case for a road that is short, safe and well-traveled, (and, therefore, would have communities, outposts or inns along the way), along a river (and thus, in Tolkien, with access to Fresh water along the way),

That takes care of the water (the road follow a river, so fresh water per Tolkien rule), the supplies (a well-traveled road is going to have options for rest and food along it), and the guards (it's a safe road. Did you see Frodo take guards with him walking through the Shire?). In those conditions 50km over two days is doable for my less than fit self (speaking from experience) - Tolkien Elves are definitely fitter than me, and could walk further.

Regarding dialogue, I will need to recheck as I didn't observe it at that time, but frankly dialogues continuing over scene shift is a common film/tv trope that does not indicate instant travel - just a common trick of scene transition. If you mean that they didn't continue the exact conversation but were still talking into the same topic, yes, god forbid that people might circle back to a topic many times when spending multiple days together. No, clearly, it's proof of teleportation.

 

[RobAnybody]

I mean...there's no canon map of second age Middle Earth that gives precise location, just a handful of quick sketch of the general shape of landmasses.

That's a clear cut case for a road that is short, safe and well-traveled, (and, therefore, would have communities, outposts or inns along the way), along a river (and thus, in Tolkien, with access to Fresh water along the way),

There's no canon map, but there's a clear cut case that is was along a river? I thought it was 2+ days walk before? Now it's short, safe, and well-traveled. You can't keep your lore straight within the same post, much less post-to-post. Look, I don't care about the Lore Being 100% OMG Accurate. I can overlook those & don't care. I care about huge breaches in it.

Person 1: "Hey, what's your favorite color?"
[they travel 2+ or however many you say, days]
Person 2: "Well, my favorite color is blue. Maybe we should have brought food or water, huh?"
...counts as one.

 

[Evie]

We know the road was along the river, yes, because the Fellowship walks on a good part of that road (in ruin) and it's along a river. We don't need a map: we have the text.

And I clearly didn't say "two plus days", I said "up to two days." (which I will admit was my estimate based on the text, so we're clear) You warped that into two plus because it fits what you wanted to hear. Kindly don't accuse me of contradiction over what I only said in your imagination.

 

[RobAnybody]

I know you said "up to two days", but you also said "there's no canon map" (despite most maps showing it's a long trek), & then you reference The Fellowship which took weeks to get there. You tend to talk out of both sides of your mouth - one way if it supports your point, another if it doesn't. I can't believe I got sucked back into this. *shrug* Enjoy the show if you want. I don't. I gave it a shot, but it irritated me with its ignorance of the lore. Not to mention it's just... *boring*. Enjoy it if you want. Low standards can be fun. [EDIT] <--- I regret that last sentence, & apologize for it. Not gonna delete it though, 'cause that would be wrong.

 

[Synobun]

Ah yes, anyone who doesn't hold your opinion is inferior. Glad you're here to show us a better way of living.

 

[RobAnybody]

Isn't that literally your position? Irony is... ironic. Literally, & I mean that in the literal sense of literally, your only contribution to this discussion has been to Like stuff, & post "this episode is great", &/or "this episode was better than the last".

 

[Synobun]

Que? Me enjoying myself and liking Evie's in-depth and respectful explanations means I think I'm superior to you? Weird stretch to make.

 

[RobAnybody]

I EDIT'd my prior post to say that last sentence was... poor. In bad taste. Wrong. My bad on that. I stand by my other points though.

I keep, keep, trying to take the high ground, but I slip sometimes. I get accused of being racist, hating diversity, not knowing what I'm talking about, "don't know Tolkien", & sometimes I get frustrated & respond in kind. It's not an excuse, just an explanation.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I take a broad view of Tolkien's elves.

When living for thousands of years, it is possible to live a life of a vagabond, a warrior, a wizard, a bard, a king, etc. and still have thousands of years to be a boat person.

I was not surprised to see Galadriel with a sword.
Maybe give her a bit more glow like the movies did because of the light of Valinor.
A bit taller actress too.


Actually, for a billion dollars it is weird I don't recognize any actor.

Anyway, my friend has a poster of Beleriand instead of Middle Earth, so I hear far more gripes than this entire thread every episode.

 

[Synobun]

I take a broad view of Tolkien's elves.

When living for thousands of years, it is possible to live a life of a vagabond, a warrior, a wizard, a bard, a king, etc. and still have thousands of years to be a boat person.

I was not surprised to see Galadriel with a sword.
Maybe give her a bit more glow like the movies did because of the light of Valinor.
A bit taller actress too.


Actually, for a billion dollars it is weird I don't recognize any actor.

Anyway, my friend has a poster of Beleriand instead of Middle Earth, so I hear far more gripes than this entire thread every episode.

The only actor I recognize was Arondir's boss. He played Crassus in Spartacus.

Oh, and the queen regent. I recognize her from Chicago Med and Arrow. (And Spartacus. )

 

[Samson]

The only actor I recognise is Lenny Henry.

 

[Evie]

Of course you can dislike the show. Taste is taste, and nothing will ever be made that everybody likes. Everyone is free to have their subjective opinion on any question of taste, and none of them are ever wrong.

It's when you go from not liking the show to trying to validate your dislike as an absolute, an objective statement, as fundamental flaws in the show, that we have a problem. Because if it's an absolute that the show is bad, then by extension (as you showed with the "lower standards" line), if your opinion of the show is objective, then anyone who like it while you don't is in the wrong, and that's the entire problem with crossing the subjective/objective line. I am going to argue with you at that point. Especially if you try to make it about canonical Middle Earth because I'm a giant Tolkien nerd and I usually can tell the difference between fan interpretation and what Tolkien actually wrote. (a LOT of what people accept about Middle Earth geography comes from Karen Wynn Fonstad's Atlas of Middle Earth, which is an excellent reference material but is not canon).

 

[Evie]

Back to the series itself, and the Stranger debate, this quote just jumped out at me while having the audiobook playing in the background

"About their origins at any rate I know more than Hobbits do themselves" - Gandalf, Fellowship of the Ring. While I have no doubt that the quote originally was meant to indicate Gandalf encountered the Hobbits early in his Third Age visit (while investigating the shadow in Mirkwood), it would dovetail nicely with Olorin having past interaction with the fathers of the fathers of the Hobbits back in the Second Age (long before they were written into the History of the west).

If so, I hope the name Gandalf is never used (it belongs in the third age) and they use another name instead (I *will* laugh if the Stranger ever gets to the Southland and receives the name Incanus there (which Gandalf canonically state was his name "in the south" in LOTR, but even Tolkien could never quite make up his mind what "the south" was).

On the flip side, the exchange between Frodo and Aragorn in Bree about servants of the enemy (that they would seem fair and feel foul, as opposed to Aragorn who seem foul and feel fair) also comes to mind, and I think would apply to Sauron all the more so. I just don't see Sauron, with all his overmastering pride, abasing himself to taking the form of a babbling vagabond. Making himself appears a fair emissary of the Valar, that he definitely could (until he lost that power in the wreck of Numenor), but I just don't see a humble appearance as in character for him.

 

[Gorbles]

I keep, keep, trying to take the high ground, but I slip sometimes. I get accused of being racist, hating diversity, not knowing what I'm talking about, "don't know Tolkien", & sometimes I get frustrated & respond in kind. It's not an excuse, just an explanation.

If you're going to reference me, you spent a page and a half or similar trying to argue Elrond wasn't a great warrior. It's okay to be wrong, but if you're not going to admit it, then yes, I am going to assume you simply don't know what you're talking about. Or prefer your explanation above literal canon material because of some assumptions you made about what a herald is and does.

Also you literally claimed that they must've fired their consultant for pointing out flaws, so I don't really have a lot of sympathy. It's one thing to arrive at a different opinion, especially given the amount of revisions Tolkien himself made to his work. It's another to insinuate the show fired someone because you perceive there to be consistent mistakes made.

 

[Evie]

In fairness and in Rob's defense, there was an rumor article back in July alleging that they did do that. It wasn't one of the major entertainment news, and I don't recall seeing reliable sites pickign up on it, but it did exist, and Rob may well have heard it repeated by others who left out the "rumor" part

 

[Evie]

And back again to the show...

One intriguing possibility about the Harfoot storyline in the show, apart from the stranger, is where and when it's taking place: south and east of Mirkwood, east of the Anduin, not far from the land that will someday be the Brown Lands, early in the Second Age before the Brown Lands were ravaged by Sauron in the wars of the Second Age...

At the time, in other words, when that region held the Gardens of the Entwives.

And a link between the Entwives and Hobbits is a possibility that was raised by Tolkien himself in LOTR.

Hmmmmm, actually, is it ever stated WHOSE garden Nori and friends were raiding in the first episode? The humans of the region (hunters with furs and antlers) definitely didn't have a gardener look to them...

 

[Synobun]

Fourth episode was definitely the weakest thus far. Kind of poorly structured and really lackluster given the stakes from the end of episode three. The very end was alright, but the rest... meh.

 

[Evie]

I don't know about 4 vs 1 or 2, but it's definitely weaker than 3 (which was the best to date). Bit of a transitional episode, between the setup of 1-3 and what will probably be the more active 5-8.

But episode 3 has the unfair advatage of the sheer wow factor of the first sight of Numenor, in fairness.

 

[EvaDK]

The best written dialogue was back in episode 2. We really got a great sense of the relationship between Elrond and Prince Durin; Durin's hurt and pride and Elronds masterful use of humbleness and diplomacy to mend their conflict. The dialogue given to Galadriel in episode 4 makes me facepalm in comparison. And she is supposed to be the older, wiser and more insightful elf at this conjunction in time, if Tolkiens text is the source they are drawing from.

 

[Evie]

It's hard to determine where in time we are exactly because of the compression. Sauron hasn't even occupied Mordor (1000 SA) but Miriel is queen and Numenor falling (3255 SA),

Most of the time indication say it's been several centuries since the end of the War against Morgoth, not millenias. My reading is that we are about 1000 years into the Second Age, and the eventd of the later age are being compressed. If so, Galadriel is about 1500 years removed from the flight of the Noldor - but still whatever's left of the second age plus the entire Third Age (3018 years) removed from the Galadriel who could refuse the Ring. Much closer in age to the former than the later.

And Galadrie's struggles with pride were a thing late in her life - she herself admits she long desired to possess the Ring, and it's still a momentous test for her when she's offered it. And even in LOTR she's not especially diplomatic - she relies on mind reading far more than talking (also implied by the failure of her plans to have a Gandalf-led white council rather than a Saruman-led one), and she has one of the Three to help her at that point.

Now, it's true that even this Galadriel wouldn't do one thing, and that's falling for Sauron's entreaties. She wasn't taken in by Annatar, so if Halbrand is Sauron, yes, this interpretation of Galadriel would be out of line. Tolkien's clear on that.

But I'm in the camp that sees Halbrand as a future Witch King or King of the Dead more than Sauron. Because having Sauron randomly wander the ocean on a raft until he stumbles on the one needle in the watery haystack who can help him infiltrate Numenor would be such horrible characterization as to make any criticism of Galadriel seems empty in comparison. Plus, Sauron has a LOT he needs to do on the mainland before imprisonment on Numenor.