Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Actually, the last time was this week since my former boss Rodrigo Mexican (from the ciudad de Mexico more precisely).Plexus said:
Americentrism
- Thread starter Bizon77
- Start date
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Iran isn't an Arab country.BasketCase said:
BasketCase
Username sez it all
She's from that part of the world. Good enough for me, now quit your nitpicking.
Marla_Singer
United in diversity
Well, it's just that an Iranian friend told me once she was actually very pissed off each time people include her country in the Arab World because there are extremely strong cultural, historical and linguistic differences between both. Anyway, it's been several years now I haven't seen her.BasketCase said:She's from that part of the world. Good enough for me, now quit your nitpicking.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
Odd. My Iranian friend never said any such thing. In conversation she even used the word "Arab" now and then. Guess it depends who you ask.
Anyway, back to the original topic: over the course of my life I've met people with a wide variety of backgrounds--and most of them actually did NOT think Americentrism was going overboard. The mere fact that I even met them said it all: when given the choice between being over there or over here, they chose the second one.
Anyway, back to the original topic: over the course of my life I've met people with a wide variety of backgrounds--and most of them actually did NOT think Americentrism was going overboard. The mere fact that I even met them said it all: when given the choice between being over there or over here, they chose the second one.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
All countries are a bit themselves-centric. That can be made worse by the language barrier. . . . a barrier rampant in Europe.
Fortunately, English is the best language to find out about other cultures since there is more literature available in this language than any other; so, theoretically, Americans are better placed to be non-themselves-centric than most other nations. But the USA is a big country. A Frenchman can read about Belgium and claim that he's being international in orientation, whereas a Californian reading about Washington or New York is being centric to his own country. Not really fair, but there ye go.
Americans are very themselves-centric, but no more so than the French, the Portuguese, the English, the Germans and the Poles, or most other nations in the world.
Fortunately, English is the best language to find out about other cultures since there is more literature available in this language than any other; so, theoretically, Americans are better placed to be non-themselves-centric than most other nations. But the USA is a big country. A Frenchman can read about Belgium and claim that he's being international in orientation, whereas a Californian reading about Washington or New York is being centric to his own country. Not really fair, but there ye go.
Americans are very themselves-centric, but no more so than the French, the Portuguese, the English, the Germans and the Poles, or most other nations in the world.
Pangur Bán
Deconstructed
Side point. California has a huge Iranian population, more than most European countries I'd presume.
What Calgacus said is true.
Big nations, such as the USA, have the tendency of beign more focused on the inside then small nations. The reason is that the US is so big, that in reality there are many other "nations" inside it. I see the same thing in Brazil. The average brazilian knows little of the outside world, because the inside one is so huge that takes most of their interest/attention.
Notice that this is not necessarily true for big nations with small populations.
Big nations, such as the USA, have the tendency of beign more focused on the inside then small nations. The reason is that the US is so big, that in reality there are many other "nations" inside it. I see the same thing in Brazil. The average brazilian knows little of the outside world, because the inside one is so huge that takes most of their interest/attention.
Notice that this is not necessarily true for big nations with small populations.
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
I am an American who feels that America does have a special place in this world...that we as Americans have been destined to bring "liberty and justice" to all (along with freedom, of course). America is my religion; the Constitution my Torah.
Verbose
Deity
And the reason the US takes more flak than other nations for being self-centered is that it's proportionally more important.
The rest of the world's position is that people in the US have a moral obligation to take an interest in what's going on outside its borders, most importantly in the places where the US is most involved. (This used to be the standard criticism of the British empire in the 19th century.)
Americans can of course always choose to disregard this. They are in the privileged position where that is possible. If they do the criticism won't let up. The European idea is mainly that the US should continue to lead in the way it used to during the cold war because this will also benefit the US. The US govt. can choose to disregard this as well, but probabaly can't expect to continue to be considered as the "leader of the free world" for much longer if it does.
There are all kinds of tiny indicators that seem to point towards the conclusion that the US is closing in on itself. The whole security attitude and war mentality seems to be cutting Americans of from Europe.
There are also seemingly trivial things like the fact that it is commonly said that non-US or British actors are less likely to make it in Hollywood than ever before. (Americans want their stars US or British. Schwarzenegger would be the xception to the rule.) And US publishers claim that there is no market for translated litterature from outside of the US (and Britain). It's true that more books are published in English than in any other language as Galgacus says, but that won't matter if there isn't sufficient interest in the non-English-speaking parts of the world.
The rest of the world's position is that people in the US have a moral obligation to take an interest in what's going on outside its borders, most importantly in the places where the US is most involved. (This used to be the standard criticism of the British empire in the 19th century.)
Americans can of course always choose to disregard this. They are in the privileged position where that is possible. If they do the criticism won't let up. The European idea is mainly that the US should continue to lead in the way it used to during the cold war because this will also benefit the US. The US govt. can choose to disregard this as well, but probabaly can't expect to continue to be considered as the "leader of the free world" for much longer if it does.
There are all kinds of tiny indicators that seem to point towards the conclusion that the US is closing in on itself. The whole security attitude and war mentality seems to be cutting Americans of from Europe.
There are also seemingly trivial things like the fact that it is commonly said that non-US or British actors are less likely to make it in Hollywood than ever before. (Americans want their stars US or British. Schwarzenegger would be the xception to the rule.) And US publishers claim that there is no market for translated litterature from outside of the US (and Britain). It's true that more books are published in English than in any other language as Galgacus says, but that won't matter if there isn't sufficient interest in the non-English-speaking parts of the world.
Verbose
Deity
As far as US "liberty and justice" is concerned, today a lot of Europeans are very sure that their societies are at least as liberal, just and free as the US (maybe more), and have been so for the last half century or so. And I'm not just talking about socialists in varying shades of red here.Benderino said:
From Europe´s perspective the US just may have lost the "liberalism race".
Benderino
Loyal American Democrat
Verbose said:
What is your point here? I don't mean to sound offensive or trite, I'm just curious as to what you're getting at. Do continue...
I would just like to add, though, that there are still many parts of the world that are not free, nor do people living in these regions experience just treatment or expanded liberties as we do in the West. The job is not over. Democracies, from South Korea to Germany to the US to Japan and everywhere in between must work together to ensure that freedom rings across the world...off every mountaintop, from every hamlet, or river, or farmstead, let freedom ring!
Tomoyo
Fate
Yes, American.Marla_Singah said:
Cilpot
Pretentious Schmuck
Fetus4188 said:
Nothing is won.. We'll elect righties with proper morals soon enough.
There is a difference between arrogant egotism and justifiable pride and authority. The United States of America is more powerful than any nation has ever been. The US could compete with the rest of the world combined. As such, we are often the subject of scrutiny, and if ANY country was scrutinized as carefully as America, terrible problems would be found.
For all self-righteous Europeans who think America is such a misguided, evil country: I would like to point to France's Jean-Marie le Pen, an ultra-nationalist, xenophobic, antisemitic, authoritarian rightwing nutjob. This Hitleresque figure (indeed, he associated with Nazis and several ex-Nazis are in his party) is not an isolated psycho or a single embarassing man, he has captured 15%-20% of the popular vote in France. Imagine how horrified the world would be if a man who wanted all non-whites evicted forcibly from the US and advocated the rounding up and forced imprisonment of those with STDs like AIDS won that much of the American popular vote. Its because we're simply more influential that you would hear a greater outcry. Jean Marie le Pen is a terrifying figure and an embarassment to France, but because France is not as important, he gets no international attention. How many people have ever even heard the name before?
America is no more troubled or egocentric than any other country, our blemishes are simply more noticeable.
For all self-righteous Europeans who think America is such a misguided, evil country: I would like to point to France's Jean-Marie le Pen, an ultra-nationalist, xenophobic, antisemitic, authoritarian rightwing nutjob. This Hitleresque figure (indeed, he associated with Nazis and several ex-Nazis are in his party) is not an isolated psycho or a single embarassing man, he has captured 15%-20% of the popular vote in France. Imagine how horrified the world would be if a man who wanted all non-whites evicted forcibly from the US and advocated the rounding up and forced imprisonment of those with STDs like AIDS won that much of the American popular vote. Its because we're simply more influential that you would hear a greater outcry. Jean Marie le Pen is a terrifying figure and an embarassment to France, but because France is not as important, he gets no international attention. How many people have ever even heard the name before?
America is no more troubled or egocentric than any other country, our blemishes are simply more noticeable.
Bizon77 said:
America is a reflection of the success that people from different backgrounds can achieve despite a sordid past. Though most of the population is European, its citizens can claim parentage from virtually all nations of the world. There's hardly a day goes by that I don't interact with people of Arab, African, Asian, Latin, Jewish, Indian, and Pacific Islander decent. No other country on the planet can boast such diversity.
Fifty
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree so much with those who pointed out that given America's stance as the most powerful nation in the world, it is scrutinized much more closely. Every nation is just as self-centered as America, and as other have said any disproportionate amount of self-centeredness in America comes both from its role as world power and the fact that it is very large and populated.
Anti-Americanism is simply a current "intellectual" fad.
Anti-Americanism is simply a current "intellectual" fad.
BasketCase
Username sez it all
And so the conundrum for Americans comes down to this: we have a moral obligation to take an interest in what's going on outside our borders. But as current international conventional wisdom goes, we're not permitted to actually DO anything--so why should we bother to take an interest???Verbose said:
