An alternative Deity Tier List (a.k.a. 'Don't Forget About Conquest')

[reddishrecue]

The conquest civilizations have their uniqueness in conquest and are scattered throughout the expansions. The organization somehow needed a careful balance in the expansions that needed conquering civilizations divided for so many different reasons that could be unknown to me. Starting with vanilla, a conquest civilization, Germany could be good at conquering barbarian troops and eventually get them to join your army. Your overall power can increase because of this during primitive times. Not only that, but Germany has changed throughout the expansions. The landsneckt which used to be its UU is now purchasable through the commerce social policy, but the hanse replaced its bank during brave new world which increased Germany's economy instead. Is Germany still a good conqueror?
Russia also could be seen as a good conqueror since their UB is the krepost and it increases tiles around the city that has krepost building in it. Its strategic resources have double quantity. For example, 6 iron in a tile for Russia would equal 12 iron. Having 12 iron would be very useful for Russia particularly in water maps if you want to dominate the seas with a large quantity of frigates.
England could also be a good domination civilization in the map since ships of the lines are of better quality than the ships that other civilizations have.
Mongolia was also good at conquering city states during vanilla and has better knights known as keshiks, but once you upgrade them, they go back to cavalries. Arabia is similar to Mongolia except that its oil bonuses are more economic and its camel archers also go back to cavalries.
Gods and kings also have good horses, that replace the chariot known as Horse Archer. The horse archer is known as a good conqueror with its seige units that replace the spearman, The huns can conquer cities early well just like the Roman civilization which has legions and balistas that are good at taking down cities as well. The only difference in this is that the legion replaces the swordsman instead and the horse archer replaces the chariot instead. Egypt comes into play here because it seems similar to The huns in the fact that egypt's chariots replace the regular average chariot as a war chariot instead. These are all good unique units that can be taken advantage of to achieve a sort of domination during that time period, but that's why research exists and there's plenty of research that keeps units obsolete no matter how unique they are and eventually don't end up as powerful as they used to be. Greeks and Persians both share a spearmen as their unique units in the spearmen. The Greeks use the hoplite which is a bit stronger than the average spearman and the persians use the immortal which is a lot easier to heal since it heals 30 in friendly lands and 20 in hostile or non friendly lands. Aztec and Polynesia also have good warriors where one makes its warrior terrify other civlizations' units like the elephant while the Aztec warrior is healthy like the immortal. Korea has some good trebuchets known as the hwacha which cause good damage to cities. Most of the civilizations that are superior in conquest are mentioned here are unique so its better to do research and get some better units since uniqueness can often be used as an advantage against unique units that aren't as good as the better units brought along with research. The Zulu also have a good unit, impi which is usually really powerful as well as the ikanda which, like Russia, replaces its barracks. Spain is also known as a good conqueror civilization since its unique slots are both unique units in the medieval age. The conquistador and the tercio are both medieval units that can attack during this era at superior strength. Their build times take a bit longer but overall they're stronger than other usual medieval units. Elephant civilizations are also included and give a scare bonus to other civilizations. India, Carthage and Siam all use elephants to attack and have good strength during the classical era. That's why again, it is recommendable to be unique and not do that much research since the unique units are already available to conquer.
However, conquering isn't always important because diplomatic penalties and anger from other civilizations can make your civilization bad and end up getting destroyed. So if you want to conquer like this and be unique, then make sure that you somehow hide your war crimes from other civilizations to prevent world wars against you.

 

[beetle]

@consentient, I am really appreciating your wit, insight, and time you are putting into each entry.

My only nit pick is the Dromon. -1 instead +1? Really? Sure, it cannot cap a city, but I would take it over a trireme any game. That said, the upgrade to Galleass is more frustrating that you describe. I end up with a handful of double-tap +1 range boats -- with a move of 3. So I can’t bring more than 2 to bear on a city or other single target!

 

[Vaeal2004]

I'm very concerned that the powerlevel of the beard factor is not taken into account on this list. That alone makes Brazil god tier.

 

[reddishrecue]

The weird thing that the creators of firaxis did is that Indonesia got put into the faith specialization but ended up coming out in brave new world, while Brazil came out righteous in the brave new world section. This seems really weird because Brazil, pedro and his beard look similar to Enrico Dandolo and his beard too, except that Enrico Dandolo is kind of dressed like a buddhist monk while Pedro is dressed like Roosevelt used to in civilization 4 (tuxedo).

 

[consentient]

Culture is easily translated to gold this way (otherwise you might need to buy the tiles which might cost a fortune). Also affects tiles that you can't buy, but can be obtained by culture (aluminum for those hydro plants 5 tiles away before anyone else comes even close to getting the tech? Coal 5 tiles away? An extra lux copy 5 tiles away? No problem for a city with 30 cpt...)

OK, I guess I maybe slightly undervalued the CPT. I'm wondering if you could help me by giving me a mathematical benchmark of a typical city's culture border size at T200 vs the same city without the 2 CPT?

Talk to me again about how feitorias are crap when your capitol wants a WLTKD that only exists one copy in the world and the current ally has 200+ influence on you.

Yes, I can see that it would be useful. But I think this is quite situational and not every game, right? And WLTKD doesn't make a huge difference between winning and losing, right? How many extra WLTKDs do you think it take to shave off 20 turns, for example?

I don't think Morocco's UA does anything more than a neutral civ as far as diplomacy goes)

You could be correct, but in my tests it did seem that aggressors (including Monty) left me alone completely purely because of this. I guess this could only be confirmed by reference to coding or a more comprehensive testing. If I was wrong, it would obviously nerf the score I gave them.

I should start out by saying that I never go all-out for early conquest. Even if going for Domination, I prefer to tech up continuously and make things easy for myself by eventually squishing people with Rocket Artillery/X-Coms/etc. So my analysis is based on a full game with lots of buildings and continuous population growth. Also, I mostly play Liberty right now.

OK, but this is not common or optimal, I just want you to acknowledge that. The easiest way to win DomV is by doing it before the Modern Era.

1. If you're playing non-Tradition and still emphasizing fast growth, you're basically always going to have un-acquired tiles that you want to work. You simply can't afford to buy every tile you want, and thus will be stuck working, e.g., non-irrigated farms for long stretches of the game. Cultural border expansion is thus very valuable. There are other things you can do improve border expansion, such as buying faith buildings, but if you aren't opening Tradition then it'll still be slower than the ideal. Every little bit counts.

OK, as I said to KB above, I'm open to reconsidering my position on small CPT boosts and how much they contribute to game long easiness.

With a five-city empire, this amounts to 90 base tourism. Factor in modifiers from Internet and Freedom, and this results in over 200 tourism from Chateaus alone. It's also very easy to increase your number of Chateaus through conquest, since every city has luxury resources.

I had a ton on the ICL game but it didn't seem to generate the results you are talking about. I'll take your word for it, and test it on a Deity game. Watch this space on France.

@consentient, I am really appreciating your wit, insight, and time you are putting into each entry.

My only nit pick is the Dromon. -1 instead +1? Really? Sure, it cannot cap a city, but I would take it over a trireme any game. That said, the upgrade to Galleass is more frustrating that you describe. I end up with a handful of double-tap +1 range boats -- with a move of 3. So I can’t bring more than 2 to bear on a city or other single target!

Thank you for your kinds words, I appreciate it. But do you see my point that whether you are defending or attacking, something that is weaker than a trireme and can't capture cities is actually a burden?

 

[Resipsa]

On your analysis of Songhai you are ignoring the fact that amphibious promos eliminate the penalty from attacking over the water. http://civilization.wikia.com/wiki/Songhai_(Civ5) I think this was changed in a patch. Its useful from a tactical point of attacking. I don't think you've misplaced them but you've misplaced its UA.

 

[consentient]

OK I had forgotten that, but it's still not a great idea to have troops in the water where they can be frigated, is it? Major automobile manufacturers will tell you all about the features they install to protect drivers and passengers, but I'd still rather not be in a car crash. I don't see Amphibious as being worth much, in all honesty.

 

[Resipsa]

It applies to attacking across rivers, which happens frequently. Load up a game with them if you don't believe me.

 

[stormtrooper412]

yeah, not having the penalty of attacking over river is underrated definitely. Though I'm yet to be given a chance to play as Songhai

 

[consentient]

It applies to attacking across rivers, which happens frequently. Load up a game with them if you don't believe me.

That I DIDN'T know, and it changes everything. I'll go back to the drawing board...We REALLY should have a Songhai DCL/IDS soon!

 

[IronfighterXXX]

Yes, Songhai is pretty good and I would put it in middle tier + [I remember I got sub 100 DomV with them in some GOTM though not on deity (emperor or immortal)].

I was surprised you put it so low on your list, especially that triple gold from barb camp synergise very well with your favorite honour.

 

[Manpanzee]

"I should start out by saying that I never go all-out for early conquest. Even if going for Domination, I prefer to tech up continuously and make things easy for myself by eventually squishing people with Rocket Artillery/X-Coms/etc. So my analysis is based on a full game with lots of buildings and continuous population growth."

OK, but this is not common or optimal, I just want you to acknowledge that. The easiest way to win DomV is by doing it before the Modern Era.

Well, I would actually strongly disagree about easiest (Seriously, X-Coms are basically as much of an "I win" button as the spaceship. I have never in my recent history failed a Domination attempt where I maintained teching. I've failed many attempts where I went all-in with a pre-Modern army.), but I acknowledge that it definitely isn't the fastest way. So in that sense, sure, it's non-optimal. But I also think it's only uncommon amongst the most hardened of Deity veterans. If you look at Deity Domination games that show up in the GotM forum, there are only a few people who actually are capable of getting pre-Modern wins, but plenty of people finish out eventually with advanced units.

But Domination is only one victory condition out of four (or maybe more like 1.5 out of 4, since Domination-style culture is easier than peaceful culture on Deity). My understanding of your list is that while it's meant to highlight the UNIVERSAL UTILITY of conquest, it isn't about Domination victory only. I think that looking at the ability to war through the ages (including Modern and Information ages) is an ideal way to get a balanced and appropriate measure of the value of conquest without being Dom-victory-only.

 

[consentient]

Well, I would actually strongly disagree about easiest...I also think it's only uncommon amongst the most hardened of Deity veterans. If you look at Deity Domination games that show up in the GotM forum, there are only a few people who actually are capable of getting pre-Modern wins, but plenty of people finish out eventually with advanced units.

That's fair enough. I was just looking at the DCL, I suppose. Sample bias. My bad.

But Domination is only one victory condition out of four (or maybe more like 1.5 out of 4, since Domination-style culture is easier than peaceful culture on Deity). My understanding of your list is that while it's meant to highlight the UNIVERSAL UTILITY of conquest, it isn't about Domination victory only. I think that looking at the ability to war through the ages is an ideal way to get a balanced and appropriate measure of the value of conquest without being Dom-victory-only.

Yes you exactly understand my position. On the other tier lists, far too little credit was given for the ability to use conquest to make it easier to win. If you go Honor or Tradition with Denmark then they can start rolling at Metal Casting and keep going, or just double their empire and win an SV or a CV, for example. So they are not toilet.

I've moved Songhai up, adding one more point for MM and 2 points for amphibious now I understand it correctly.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

Yes you exactly understand my position. On the other tier lists, far too little credit was given for the ability to use conquest to make it easier to win. If you go Honor or Tradition with Denmark then they can start rolling at Metal Casting and keep going, or just double their empire and win an SV or a CV, for example. So they are not toilet.

I know i'm not the best warmonger, but i find that the resources diverted to build up an army (including researching techs that are in the "wrong" part of the tree) and the diplomatic cost of going to war will leave you into a weakened position for an SV compared to just building fewer but better cities and keeping good relations with the AIs so you can sell your stuff for max price.
Culture is probably different. Being able to take wonders and great works can really help you but that would be late game conquests. In the Huns DCL, i took zero great works out of all 3 civs i wiped on my continent. Won't really help for culture.
Diplomatic victory is probably the easiest transition after medieval wars as more cities will typically give you more gold to buy CS and a strong army means AI is less likely to DoW you and capture your CS allies. On continent map where you can get unspoiled diplomacy with half the AIs, it could probably work great.

 

[Cromagnus]

Since we have a new thread, I have to reiterate my theory that Attila (and Egypt) are the two most powerful civs, bar none, because of their ability to clear the map quickly.

When you can eliminate all competition by t100, it's incredibly smooth sailing to any victory condition. These two civs, above all others, can clear the map very very fast. The only other civ IMHO that comes close is Persia. (If you time a natural Golden Age, Liberty Golden Age, and Liberty closer Golden Age just right)

However, even with the liberty golden age, you only get +1 move. A CB moving over a hill in one turn is great, but he still only has 3 moves on flatland, and the horse archer has more. The war chariot's extra moves on flatland compensate for rough terrain issues, but IMHO it's more dependent on map luck unlike Attila.

So an argument could be made that Egypt is 2nd-tier along with Persia, so in that case Attila stands alone at the top. He won't set speed records for Diplomatic or Science Victory, but otherwise, Attila > all. (hence my icon)

Yes, I recognize that there are other standards for victory, but, again, when it comes to eliminating all competition as a means to achieve all VC, nobody beats The Huns. (And yes, you can swim horse archers between islands and continents to support your caravels, but honestly domination is so much easier on water maps, it might as well be Immortal anyway, so it's moot IMHO)

 

[consentient]

Hey Cromagnus, thanks for your input. I think what you say is very true about Pangaea maps and I would rate both civs higher if I wast also taking into consideration Continents and Fractal.

But don't you find that if you can clear your continent by T100 or if you fail to clear your Pangaea before the AI gets to the Industrial, that your troops will be no good, and that you will be a bit behind? Or do you think that you can get the job done by this time consistently?

For example, I cleared my (admittedly small) continent by T70 something on the current DCL but it was a real struggle catching up to the tech leader in the next 100 turns. I'm not an excellent player, but then I would expect the term 'plain sailing' to also apply to mediocre players too, or maybe even more so.

Especially if you went Honor and took capitals from the get-go (usually I delay til after universities to REALLY explode), won't you be quite far behind?

Also, by "domination is so much easier on water maps, it might as well be Immortal anyway, so it's moot IMHO" do you mean naval battles? What if the capitals aren't coastal? This DCL had all coastal caps but if not then I would have had to do bombers and artillery, etc. Which would have taken me longer to tech there because I was building HAs turns 20-70.

If you could make more of a case, I'm definitely interested to hear it.

Cheers.

P.S> While you're at it, could you link us to your speed record Huns sweep? We were all talking about it before in another thread, but I couldn't find the info. The turn 'times' are in historical date format on the HoF and I can't convert it or load your save. Which turn was it? T90-something right?

 

[Cromagnus]

Hey Cromagnus, thanks for your input. I think what you say is very true about Pangaea maps and I would rate both civs higher if I wast also taking into consideration Continents and Fractal.

But don't you find that if you can clear your continent by T100 or if you fail to clear your Pangaea before the AI gets to the Industrial, that your troops will be no good, and that you will be a bit behind? Or do you think that you can get the job done by this time consistently?

For example, I cleared my (admittedly small) continent by T70 something on the current DCL but it was a real struggle catching up to the tech leader in the next 100 turns. I'm not an excellent player, but then I would expect the term 'plain sailing' to also apply to mediocre players too, or maybe even more so.

Especially if you went Honor and took capitals from the get-go (usually I delay til after universities to REALLY explode), won't you be quite far behind?

Also, by "domination is so much easier on water maps, it might as well be Immortal anyway, so it's moot IMHO" do you mean naval battles? What if the capitals aren't coastal? This DCL had all coastal caps but if not then I would have had to do bombers and artillery, etc. Which would have taken me longer to tech there because I was building HAs turns 20-70.

If you could make more of a case, I'm definitely interested to hear it.

Cheers.

P.S> While you're at it, could you link us to your speed record Huns sweep? We were all talking about it before in another thread, but I couldn't find the info. The turn 'times' are in historical date format on the HoF and I can't convert it or load your save. Which turn was it? T90-something right?

Regarding the risk, I assume you mean the risk involved in ignoring tech altogether and trying to win with horse archers vs traditional cb/xbow rush where you tech up as you conquer? The only time I ever stalled out with Attila on a pangaea was my first time attempting a horse archer rush. I consider Attila's version of chariot archer rush even less risky than a more balanced tech + cb/xbow rush. Normal chariot archers are arguably more risky. However, considering that speed of conquest is the #1 insurance against facing high-tech opponents, I feel like you're more likely to succeed with the horse version, generally speaking.

And it's actually less risky IMHO when you don't have to clear the map. (IE you're leaving one opponent alive) Often that last opponent is the one that's hard to reach, behind a bottleneck, etc. If I knew I could ignore the civ with the Great Wall, that certainly changes my conquest route!

However, it doesn't really matter in my experience because the AI completely capitulates once you have the #1 military. You can bully them into giving you all their cities, gold/turn and luxuries, effectively destroying their science output and economy. You could argue this is bad game design, or that the game shouldn't work that way, but that's how it is.

Continents w/ inland capitals don't scare me, I've finished xb/cb rushes by swimming over with knights/gatlings and a few caravels as late as t200. Again, you can bully them into giving you a beachhead city, or better yet, bully them into giving you an inland city, allowing you to focus on the coastal ones... making it that much easier to eliminate them. (When going for diplo/cultural victory)

I think the time limit is closer to t150. That's when it gets iffy. And by time limit I mean, (you must have the #1 military by then and be able to get cities in peace deals)

Before I shifted my approach to speed-conquest, (it's a different way of playing) I still managed to win late with Attila. Even against, cavalry, artillery, etc. I've cleared a map with horse archers as late as t180. It may seem painfully slow, but you can take a ridiculously high strength capital with enough of them, because they can go into artillery range and back out after firing twice. (Once they have +1 range and double-attack)

Sure it might take 5 horse archers 10 turns, but again, that's only for domination. For any other kind of victory you can shift to empire-building 20-30 turns earlier.

Here are my only submitted Attila games (t111 and t158), although I do intend to submit another one as soon as I finish my circuit of playing each civ again once. When I do, it'll probably be a domination-assisted Deity time or culture game.

T158
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=6785
T11
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=6791

Also, I think this game of Moriarte's speaks to the value of speed (and my point about Persia)... we played this game using honor system rules where ranged units were disallowed. Small map, so only 5 opponents, but 5 opponents down by t131 *without XBows OR chariot archers, the most effective tools of conquest* tells you how good Persia is.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?entryID=6475

Anyway, with Attila, you don't need to go Honor. Or even Liberty. Those things help with early conquest, yes, but they aren't necessary. With other civs maybe, but with Attila, you can actually go full Tradition, which obviously puts you less far behind in the long run. (although I prefer Liberty for conquest-based games, because you have at least 7 cities once you stop pwning people)

His ability to raze down cities at 2x speed is not to be underestimated, both for conquest and as a tool for empire-building. You take a size 20 city, boom it's size 10 and generating like 15 unhappiness... 4 turns later it's size 2, generating 7. Whether you stop razing (annex) then, or not, this is a huge advantage on Deity when facing civs with larger cities.

Yes, with continents it's more risky to neglect tech, but once you've convinced your remaining opponents to give you all their cities, all without firing a single shot, they have low beaker output and you catch up. Sure, it takes longer, and it ain't pretty but it works. (I will admit that it takes some nifty juggling to get your empire back into shape after you transition back to peace... although you never really go back to peace... preventing your last opponent from planting a second city is a high priority)

Also, a key element IMHO of the continents version of the Attila game is Liberty. A Great Admiral ensures you meet ALL the civs before T100, which allows you to start bullying them and prevent runaways.

So, yes, this is not a simple strategy. It's involved. Maybe it's best if I don't call this *easy*, but it is *reliable* once you know how. Yes, inland cities are harder, yes, continents are easier because the AI is hapless at naval combat, but that doesn't help you win if you smash your ships against the rocks. It's much easier to pump out units until he just *gives you all his inland cities*. ;-)

FYI, the current speed record in the HOF for Standard/Standard/Deity is t111, which is not my fastest time, but is the fastest time I've submitted. (My fastest time was not admissible due to a reload) The fastest time I've seen (also not submitted) was klaskeren's (t92ish) and he used OCC to insta-raze, which is also perfectly valid but not as relevant for non-domination VC.

Sorry if my thoughts are jumbled in this post, I'm writing this in a rush.

EDIT: If you want to see the turn numbers (instead of dates) click on the General Log.

Also, some additional food for thought, my t145 Byzantium game was a blended dromon/chariot archer rush, but I didn't use dromons for anything but the last opponent, and they ended up being overkill. Which serves as some evidence, I think, that this strategy does work with other civs, even ones without conquest advantages... it just works WAY better with Attila because he can move through rough terrain.
http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ5/game_info.php?dsply=&entryID=7609

 

[Cromagnus]

Also, just for the record, I don't think of myself as being one of the best at Domination.

I know I shouldn't be revealing this, but I'm pretty certain the only reason I hold the HOF record for that combination of settings is that nobody's really tried to beat it. Perhaps people think it would be hard to beat, but odds are they just haven't played Attila much. ;-)

EDIT: Also, re: Great Admiral, I know that I usually advocate clearing your continent and switching to peaceful play before meeting your neighbors, but this runs a higher risk of not catching up to the runaway than if you just bully everyone. Either strategy is sufficient though, IMHO.

EDIT2: I think whether you bother to take out the other continent is very map-specific. If you capture Petra, Notre Dame, Forbidden Palace and Colossus, then eh, who cares if there's a runaway on the other continent. You have a whole continent to yourself, with all its unique luxuries, and first shot at allying all the CS... if that isn't enough of an advantage to win a diplomacy or science victory, then perhaps don't play on Deity.

It's a little different with cultural victory though. IMHO conquest is ALWAYS the best way to win cultural victory on Deity. For one thing, you can resurrect an AI to culture-bomb him for the super easy win. For another, capturing great works and wonders is WAAAY easier than building them. And if you find that the last standing AI has all the best wonders, give him your worst capital and then take his capital. It avoids a domination win, and gives you the remaining wonders you covet. Anyway, I do think England, Polynesia and Venice need to be in the discussion for "best on water maps" but on anything but perhaps small/large islands, horse archers are relevant a lot earlier, and they can swim over to your neighbor before you could ever get Compass. And it's that early snowball that really matters. Still, there's a case to be made that England is badass on *every* map type. All her Uniques are relevant to conquest, and she excels at playing tech catch-up. So, yeah.

But I digress. I'm fine with an asterisk *God-like on water-maps, or *God-like on Pangaea... because isn't that the point of this? Once you start breaking it down, "best" is absolutely a function of map type. I think the other list was trying to avoid that, but you really can't avoid it.

Let's say you went with a points sytem, and assigned a score of 1-10 for pangaea, 1-10 for continents and 1-10 for archipelago. (I'm going to leave out the weird map types that we use in HOF play because frankly, most people never play them OUTSIDE of HOF play....)

Anyway, if a civ scored 8 on all 3 types, they might have the highest combined score of 24, but that's irrelevant if there's a civ that scored 10 on pangaea. If I'm looking for a tier list, chances are I'm wanting to try a civ/map type/VC combo, and the relevant information is "Who's good at this map type/VC?"

So, a generic overall score doesn't suit me, but I'm not here to start that argument again. Anyway. Attila 4 lyfe!

 

[consentient]

I'll update this post in due course with a full response, but quickly on the subject of bullying: are you suggesting that you use the 'demand' option? I've never heard of that being used! If so this is revolutionary news to me. :O

 

[IronfighterXXX]

I know I shouldn't be revealing this, but I'm pretty certain the only reason I hold the HOF record for that combination of settings is that nobody's really tried to beat it.

Yeah, this has to change soon