An Ancient India Scenario

[Jerry'sGoldfish]

i see the money problem, but while building a game they knew how to crack it - so why do they not release the hacking engines for money on the market, or at least the game site here is to buy that product to ensure theirselves with customers....do u get my idea??

 

[Takhisis]

I have no doubt that many of the people who have worked on Civ III would like nothing more than to make additional options available to the Civ III community. Unfortunately, doing that costs money. It's not free.

They didn't have to develop new stuff, just leave some of the great stuff from Civ II like scripting and objectives. And not block any roads that might elad there. I sometimes honestly feel they tried to do as much damage as they could.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Pulled The Age of imperial Unity (History & Culture of the Indian People vol.2). R. C. Majumdar (ed.) off the shelf. 600 pages on the period from the Nandas & Mauryas through the 3rd c. CE. There's extensive material on economics. I'll be sorting through it & post what's relevant when I'm done.

 

[7ronin]

Pulled The Age of imperial Unity (History & Culture of the Indian People vol.2). R. C. Majumdar (ed.) off the shelf. 600 pages on the period from the Nandas & Mauryas through the 3rd c. CE. There's extensive material on economics. I'll be sorting through it & post what's relevant when I'm done.

Parallel Tracks: Great minds think alike. I have had this book on order. It should arrive after the holidays. I've purchased several others as well. I have two books now on war elephants - wonderful illustrations which I am having difficulty uploading. See PM.

Culture Groups: Go ahead and give me your take on the culture groups. My forthcoming update has incorporated your suggestions. Macedonia and the satrapies are now in the same group and Tibet has joined the Himalayas. If there is a kludge which allows more city styles I'm all for it. Take a stab at the civ attributes as well. I have been looking through the archive at flavors and it seems they are overated. According to several posters (Embryodead?) the AI largely ignores them. The AI also seems to ignore production emphasis flags.

Zero Techs: Any thoughts? These will, I think, follow the culture groups to some extent.

Wonders: Since we are "pushing" Buddhism, there probably ought to be some increased payoff for choosing Buddhism over other options. Wonders should be a part of that. I'll have to review Rood and Dragon to see what was done in a similar situation.

 

[7ronin]

Post deleted

 

[Kyriakos]

I will be needing some concept art for the ancient Indian set, walls, some monuments more, etc

 

[7ronin]

Improvements (strawman):

Notes:
This is a list of improvements suggested thus far. If you had an idea which is not reflected here, please remind me.


Shiva Statues/Shrines
Buddhist Council
Elephant Stable
Ritual Bath
Stupa
Wootz Foundary
Palace
Jain Temple
Buddhist Temple
Ashoka Pillar
Ghat
Jainist Monastery
Buddhist Monastery
Moat
Walls
Harbor
Port
Bazaar
Godown
Mint
Guildhall

 

[Takhisis]

Buddhist, Jainist… I'd suggest several temples for the Hinduistic Gods, each with their own benefits and priests, a la Rome: Total War, but I don't see how that could be accomplished.

 

[7ronin]

Buddhist, Jainist… I'd suggest several temples for the Hinduistic Gods, each with their own benefits and priests, a la Rome: Total War, but I don't see how that could be accomplished.

I'm not familiar with Rome: Total War, but if it's not possible, try looking at it from a different perspective. Are there specific kinds of Jain, Buddhist, and Hindu temples in ancient India? Or are the temples of each religion pretty much generic? What payoff in game terms would a player get from building one of these temples? What can a Jain priest do that a Buddhist monk can't and vice versa? What kinds of relics are associated with each religion? Is there a "center" or holy site associated with each religion? More than one? Why would a play want to shift from Hindism or Jainism to Buddhist?

Answer these questions and fit them together and we will be on our way to constructing the religious aspect of this scenario

 

[7ronin]

Please check the index at the foot of the first post for updated lists.

 

[RHKINC]

In the religious buildings aspect, you could divide the faiths into the cultures similar to the Muslim/Christian division in the Middle Ages scenario built in with Civ 3 Conquests.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Stupid cold/fever bracketed time out of town. Thinks: don't dandle babies during the holidays. Their immune systems are up, but they'll pass along every germ type in the family circle.

now I'm home, happily alone and back to health. So expect progress soon on the work previously discussed.

Please check the index at the foot of the first post for updated lists.

You've got some missing brackets - turning links into plain text. The link was fine to the civs list - most closely connected to the map work.

Added the bold numbering:

(1) Are there specific kinds of Jain, Buddhist, and Hindu temples in ancient India? (2)Or are the temples of each religion pretty much generic? (3)What payoff in game terms would a player get from building one of these temples? (4)What can a Jain priest do that a Buddhist monk can't and vice versa? (5)What kinds of relics are associated with each religion? (6)Is there a "center" or holy site associated with each religion? (7)More than one? (8)Why would a play want to shift from Hindism or Jainism to Buddhist?

Short answers - willing to research and post fuller responses as needed.

1. Yes
2. Not always. In either form or function - although there is some overlap.
3. Depends on the attached game functions. Start with the functions in the standard game. Strip away the names, 'pedia descriptions and graphics. What functions of those game elements would be fulfilled by temples?
4. AFAIK neither religion had priests during this period and not all acharyas or arhats are monks.
5. Relics refers to either a body part or physical object utilized by a venerated person and thus venerated for their sake. Contagion in the anthropological sense. Not too many bones of gods around. Haven't heard of any Jain relics - it's more "every man for himself" than Buddhism. OTOH all three traditions utilize icons. And all three tend to revere places or natural features (stones, rivers, etc.) associated with particular persons & events. Some venerated objects cross religious boundaries. Mount Kailas and Sri Pada are two examples. Can't think of anything similar to banalinga for the other two traditions.
6. Yes
7. Yes
8. See #3

Temples are only one part of the religious activity. There is a strong thread of daily devotions and at home ceremonies in all the traditions. In a sense every patriarch or matriarch is a brahmin. And local or roadside shrines for individual rather than structured collective worship are another common element. Holidays - in the original sense - are another way the focus is shifted quite far away from temples. Festivals have local centers. And regional variations may diverge to the extent that the same festival celebrates a completely different deity.

If it wasn't mentioned before it's worth pointing out that "-ism" is much more a European than Asian concept. Buddha is an avatar of Vishnu. Vishnu & Shiva are manifestations of each other. An arhat of one path is a proto-guru of another. The same text gets multiple interpretations - often perceived as layering rather than porecluding another. It is possible to perform puja of multiple traditions without any ethical or spiritual conflict. It's important to not mistake the synergetic and synergistic opportunities for a syncretic tendency. It may be much more useful in designing the scenario to think in terms of Karma Yoga (dutiful action), Bhakti Yoga (devotion) and Jnana Yoga (rational insight) expressed variously across the traditions and regions rather than of strictly distinct religious traditions.

 

[7ronin]

Wonders list updated and expanded here.

Hinduism, Jainism, and Buddhism are very complex with many interwoven threads - much more so than we can ever hope to unravel in this small scenario. I worry that delving too deep into the finer points of Indian religion and by also using too many sanskrit terms we may dampen the player's enjoyment of the game. I think much of this extra information can find it's way into the Civilopedia.

 

[Takhisis]

My idea was that -like in R:TW- you could have different 'lines' of buildings, trade gods bringing commerce, maybe a war temple giving holy warriors, etc. A bit could be done.

Perhaps religions could be incorporated into the governments, you can divide a monarchy into a Jainist/Hinduist/Buddhist monarchy subset, each with their own buildings… scrap that. You can't keep the same buildings if you change from Jainist Monarchy to a Jainist Oligarchy.

 

[Blue Monkey]

... trade gods bringing commerce ... a war temple giving holy warriors ...
... Jainist Monarchy ... Jainist Oligarchy

Links to historic examples? Even a name or two? Whether during the specific period of this scenario or not any such info would be sure to benefit a lot of the creative thinking about this scenario.

 

[7ronin]

I am thinking about scrapping the trade civs. I have wracked my brain but I can't come up with a way to really make them work. I had originally envisioned something a la El Justo's Imperialism mod but in that case the trade module works because the trade civs belong to the major civs as colonies.

Perhaps we could make it work if the four trade civs each have some unique resource which would encourage trade that way. But then we are in danger of running up against the phantom resource problem. Then too, trade majorly increases turn times.

I think a compromise might be to use the spaceship victory the way that Thamis employed it in TAM. We have x number of wonders/techs simulating the major Indian overseas trade points. Each one stimualtes trade and culture in a particular way. Build them all and you have a trade victory. The southern civs were powerful traders but not super strong militarily. This might offer them a chance to win the game in a way which counterbalances the military power of the Gangetic civs to the north.

Rambuchan in his Mughal scenario just has one spaceship part!

On a different front, my thoughts are slowly coalescing on how to get the "holy men," religious resources, and religious relics working.

With regard to the wonders, we could probably do with a few others.

As always, specific suggestions are encouraged, welcomed, and appreciated.

 

[Blue Monkey]

Place a resource required for the "space race" in the "trade civ" locations. One resource can do. Set up the conditions so that a civ must settle near the resource - no way to connect the resource to the trade network. Then the "part(s)" must be built in that location. A single resource can be the sole requirement for multiple parts since buildability can be triggered by tech advances. A civ will have to find the resource, settle, defend the location & take a long time to build a valuable key to victory. A lot like locating trading partners, creating trading centers near the frontiers, spending decades cultivating exclusive trade networks, etc.

 

[7ronin]

Place a resource required for the "space race" in the "trade civ" locations. One resource can do. Set up the conditions so that a civ must settle near the resource - no way to connect the resource to the trade network. Then the "part(s)" must be built in that location. A single resource can be the sole requirement for multiple parts since buildability can be triggered by tech advances. A civ will have to find the resource, settle, defend the location & take a long time to build a valuable key to victory. A lot like locating trading partners, creating trading centers near the frontiers, spending decades cultivating exclusive trade networks, etc.

Beautiful, and as the mathematicians are wont to say, elegant!

A proposal:

Unique resource located in the four "trade" locatons: "commerce" (sorry, pehaps you can think of a better name).

The unique resource is triggered by the small wonder, "Overseas Trade" which also allows the "spaceship" to be built.

Spaceship improvements (allowed by techs to be determined):
These improvements can only be built within a city which has the "commerce" resource within its city radius.

Silk Route Caravansari
Tamil Trade Market
Arabian Trade Market
Overland (European) Trade Market
Spice Islands Trade Depot
Others? Five may be an optimum number

 

[Blue Monkey]

Culture Groups Map

Sorry that the map looks busy. hopefully with a brief guide to the visual keys understanding will rise like a lotus out of the murk.

The goals for this map are to show proximate locations of the civs (list as of Jan 1st), show them as 5 sensible groups, and draw attention to remaining issues of the civs relative to the map. Placing the info onto a screenshot of the biq map reveals more than annotating the sat image. And since we’re getting into the nitty-gritty of scenario mechanics it’s more useful to have the map as a visual base. There’s a blank version included at the end of the post.

Civs are in bold. Suggestive group names are in italics. Both civ and group names are color-coded.

Some names are changed from the posted list. These are to be taken only as suggestions. The specific reasoning for each choice is in the appropriate section below.

One guide to distribution was to keep the numbers of civs in each group as balanced as possible. Assignment of some of the civs on the frontiers between groups was arbitrary - using a little research into the history of cultural relations and hegemonies during the period - and immediately before & after.

The simplest decision in reducing the posted list of 8 groups to the required 5 was to eliminate the trade group. The civs are still present since the map was prepared prior to the current discussion about removing those civs from the list. They show as assigned to the group closest to them geographically.


Yavanas Group

• This is the name given by Indians to foreigners from the west - primarily Greeks and Arabs. Which is why the two Western trade civs are here.
• Aksum is used in place of Egypt. Aksum was the intermediate trading partner between Ptolemaic Egypt and South & SE Asia.
• Macedonia currently has no specific starting location.

Western Group

• Surashtra - slight spelling difference from the list. The latter was a more modern version of the name.
• Placed Surashtra with this group because it is on the “wrong” side of the mountains from both the Southern & Central Groups. Comparatively little Tamil influence. It shares a watershed with the other civs in this group.

Southern Group

• If the trade civs are removed it might make sense to call this the Tamil or Sangam group or something along those lines. Stressing cultural rather than geographic unity.
• Vidharbha is included here because of language & cultural affiliations tend more to the Southern than the Northern civs. Also it is the area furthest North in imperial expansions by the Cholas & other dynasties.
• Kedah goes here since it stands in for a key area of Chola expansion.

Central Group

• This includes both the Deccan & Gangetic civs - the heartland.
• Joining the two groups make sense since the Southern Deccan Plateau & related ranges seem to be a major geographical limitation to expansion from the North. Asoka’s stopping at Kalinga may have been as complex a decision as Alexander’s.
• As discussed earlier in the thread Gangaridai (Greek) is changed to Gangarashtra (Sanskrit). “Vanga” is a legendary name from the Mahabharata era. It makes more sense to go with what would have been used locally in official communications during the era.

Himalayan Group

• The names on the map are shifted slightly North & West. Depending on map changes - such as placement of valleys within the Himalayas - positions may shift again.
• Zhang Zhung is the kingdom that dominated central & Western Tibet during the era. It is also the heartland of the Bon (pre-Buddhist) religion. Suggested capital: Kyunglung. Have yet to find a leader name despite on-line references to a list of 32 kings. Might temporarily use “Nyatri Tsenpo” - The first (legendary) king of Tibet. The name - like Buddha - is really a title. “Neck-Enthroned Mighty One”. In other words a conqueror carried on the shoulders of submitting kings.
• Monyul is a local kingdom in existence from 500 BCE - 600 CE. Naraka is a legendary name.
• Qin dominated China at the beginning of this era but were losing ground. Han were in control by the end of this era.

What’s That Red Stuff?

• Areas with red shading are settleable land without any civs assigned on the current list.
• Civs adjacent to those areas are likely to expand early on & get a leg up on their neighbors. One probable outcome would be that Avanti & Nanda will be too strong for Magadha to expand.
• Civs in red were removed from the current list. Restoring those civs would bring the total to 30. Or keep it at 36 if the trade civs are removed.
• The situation at the Western edge can be resolved by placing Macedonia somewhere down there. That’s the area through which Alexander retreated.

.

 

[Takhisis]

Links to historic examples? Even a name or two? Whether during the specific period of this scenario or not any such info would be sure to benefit a lot of the creative thinking about this scenario.

Unfortunately I don't know much about ancient Indian religions. But Buddhism could give scientific/happiness (peace of mind) boosts, plus monasteries. (wasn't Asoka a Buddhist?). Were there warrior Buddhist monks in India like there used to be in Japan?
Same could go for Jainism and its doctrines on peace of mind, though I know next to nothing about Jainism…

Let's extrapolate from the Total War series for the Polytheists: whoever was the god of War in Brahmanism could give a military bonus (experience, thus avoiding the need for Barracks/training grounds? perhaps a special unit at higher level buildings?), a god(ess) of Fertility could improve City growth, maybe a gd of Artisans or similar could work for improved production (SW?).

Aaaaaalso some GWs could require a distinct religion (maybe just require a certain temple to have been built in the same city).

I've been having doubts about this, but maybe an alternate spaceship victory could be gotten from this, too. We have the Silk Road/trade with the West possibility, but what if there's TWO improvements listed as Spaceship Parts with the same number assigned to them in the editor? Does that create and and/or condition? Does the game crash? Can someone check? Because we could have a set of religious sub-victory there, too.