[BTS] An attempt at 15XX AD Deity Space

T112 Traded Nationalism for Engineering +50:gold: with Mansa and for Divine Right +30:gold: with Gandhi.
T113 Traded DR for 300:gold: Frederick and 100:gold: Augustus; a useful tech. Also sold Paper for 160:gold: to Gandhi.
Not much happens. Just finishing infrastructure, building warriors for MP and chariots, one for supermedic and a few more free upgrades with GG later.
Still no archery. If I need a peace treaty and the AI in question has no gold, I can beg archery. Useful tech archery:D
Can an AI I'm at war with peace-vasslal to another AI with which I have peace treaty?
 
T116
Connected iron again and switched back to slavery. Still in Pacifism, I need it for a little longer to get 6th GS in time. This one has 10% chance to become a Great Artist.
I think Gandhi first. Just seems to be the most convenient target desite many hill cities. They all only have 1 longbow + some outdated rubbish. May change though.
Bombay stands on a hill and has 60% culture, I think I'll ignore it for a while and go straight after Delhi pillaging roads and cottages and threatening Bombay by the way.
Spoiler :

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T126 DoW Gandhi. Yeah I'm slow:blush:. Captured 2 cities without loses. That was some luck, expected to lose 1-3 cuirs.
Spoiler :

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Mansa rejected my beg and I bribed him against Gandhi. Gandhi bribed Elizabeth against Mansa, Mansa bribed Frederick angainst Liz:crazyeye:
See what one careless move can do.
At least research is going in accordance with the plan.
Gandhi lost his only iron.
Spoiler :

127diplo.JPG

 
T130
Gandhi has too many units... Thats weird, they weren't in the capital or any other city that I was watching with the chariots. Recognising defeat I took peace. He even offered 180:gold: for peace, good boy Gandhi. Now we are best pals again:beer:
Note that he is pleased during the war time:lol:
Spoiler T130 Peace :

130banking.JPG


Then he offered Banking and 440:gold: for Liberalism. Thats generous.
Spoiler T130 Trade :

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As a result of this 4-turn military adventure I obtained 2 potentially good cities. I received a GG, 196:gold: from pillaging, 312:gold: conquest gold and lost 3 cuirassiers. All in all it went not too bad.

Need a new target now.
I moved a warrior towards York and could not believe my eyes: it is protected by two axemen and a chariot. And it can be attacked on the DoW turn.
Spoiler T130 York :

130York.JPG


I also can take a couple of good cities from Augustus. And they are stealing tiles from former Gandhi's cities.
Ravenna is well protected, I will need at least 10 cuirs to take it with one strike. On the other hand, there are just 2 catapults an a praetorian in Mediolanum.
Spoiler T130 Ravenna :

130Ravenna.JPG

 
Looking at Ravenna and Mediolanum I realized how badly I messed up early exansion. I should have settled there myself. Augustus founded Ravenna T56. I'd already settled Rostov. It should have been settled between lakes and the sea like Augustus did. Sometimes even stupid AI can give me a lesson on city placement:lol:
That city would have decent commerce early on and lighthouse can easily be chopped. The gold city is better in the very beginning but it would not grow. Besides, those two spots in the north were secured, nobody could steal those.
Such mistakes are the main reason I struggle now. I simply can't build enough units to break even Gandhi. I can't get into a serious fight, so I have to resort to a sniping tactic.
Spoiler :

53Augustus.JPG

 
You're having a good pace! I forgot how much faster it will be when you have Deity AI around who actually can help you with teching. That also probably should change the general approach. On immortal, I say go all out war from the start to grab all lands, because those lands are more valuable in your hands. On deity you have to be more careful. For example attacking Mansa would be a mistake imo. Aim to getting him friendly and let him help you tech all the way to the end. Gandhi falls a bit in the same category. Usually with Mansa-Gandhi duo in the game, they will work together to blast through the tech tree very fast. The map layout here is a bit unlucky, with both Mansa and Gandhi in very natural positions to invade first.

On a side note, if you have hand picked these AI, then they should also include some universal hate target. Peter or De Gaulle are good candidates. Everyone hates them, you can steal workers without repercussions, and if you don't kill them yourself, they make it easy to improve relations with everyone else through shared war.
 
Yeah tech trading helps a lot. For instance trading PP saved me one GS. I spoiled relations with Gandhi and there is no way to get him to friendly again. That would not matter if I could cap him. I can keep Mansa friendly and Gandhi is trading still.
Great idea to pick a commonly hated AI, I haven't thought about it much.

T133 Frederick asked me to DoW Elizabeth and I did it. That was convenient as I was going to do it anyway. Basically its +1 diplo fo free. I take York winning all fights at ~97% odds.:spear:

T136 I got some really bad luck here. Lost 7 cuirs at 45-60% odds. Liz had 4 survivors with ~1:strength:, chariot killed of them at 90% odds, including that pesky pikeman. Who could think that chariots can be that useful.
After that failure I moved to Hastings an captured it without losses. Just a couple of longbows on flatland 70+% odds.
BTW, my research rate imroved to 294bpt. It was just above 200 not so long ago.
Spoiler T136 London :

T136London.JPG


T143 Communism. Received a free GSpy:dance:
That is just 1 turn later than the date projected with 250 average bpt. And it's 3 turns earlier than in the previous game with triple commerce start. A bit of improvement.
What was I doing on turn 143 in the NC193 game? (T246 launch)
Spoiler T143 NC193 :

Getting ready for Cuirssier Rush and researching Chemistry:goodjob:
143NC193.JPG


I still have a GS that was meant for bulbing PP. When do I use a 2GP Golden Age? Depends on many factors. That will take a lot of planning to make everything fit.
Will I use Kremlin? I don't know. Then I need a new GP plan, because I'm going to use a 3GP GA, probably 4GP one too and use Great Scientists for bulbing. I also need to expand to at least 25 cities, preferably 30. Need to decide on slavery->caste-SP as well. And all of it is tied up with GA.
Mansa does not have stone and he's just researched Scientific Method. I think I'll take my time and get as much failgold from it as possible. Rostov and Tver still have 9 forests and I don't see any other use for those. I'm not sure how much I will use Kremlin though.
Moscow has grown to size 10 and is doing great. Soon enough it will become a powerful hammer-heavy bureau capital which it is supposed to be.

About to attack London once again. There are 19 cuirs and a trebuchet ready to strike on the next turn. There are currently 12 units... I think I'll do it this time.
Frederick's stack is 3 tiles away from London. Perhaps, I will bribe him to make peace.
Spoiler T143 London :

143London.JPG


A bit of statistics and tech situation. Tech rate increased to 343:science: per turn. Hard to project it at this stage of the game.
Spoiler :

143Stat.JPG

143Tech.JPG

 
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Watching with interest. :thumbsup: Could you upload some earlier saves? Say T50, T75, T90, T100ish, T115.
 
Of course, this game isn't valid for HOF, anyway. I just wanted to play it out myself before sharing.
I've just got an app crash on T151, first one in this game. Regular crashes in the late game are one of the main reasons I never play for HOF. Imagine submitting a game with ~20 crashes:rolleyes:
 

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I decided to delay GA only a little. Makes no sense delaying civic shanges for a long time. My cities aren't ready to leverage GA for GP generation but delaying pacifism is just as bad. Besides, earlier GA -> earlier reasearch boost, and this GA gets me halfway to Assembly Line.
I bribe Frederick and take my time to bombard London's defences.

T146
London falls and I lose only 2 cuirassiers. I've been fighting with just cuirs for so long I almost forgot how great siege is. Decided to wie Liz out, I'd rather have Mansa trading techs than a single-city vassal. Lost 2 more cuirs stroming her last city on the next turn.
Spoiler T146 London :

146London.JPG


I start panopther GA with GS and GSpy and adopt representaion, caste, SP and pacifism. Building more workers (about time:D) and chopping spare forests into Kremlin, building farms and workshops.

T148
I trade got Democracy and Moscow starts on Statue of Liberty. A free rep scientist in 20+ cities will be a decent boost to my bpt. Yep, I still confident I can Have at least 20, but 25 by 1300 AD is going to be difficult and cities captured later won't have time to contribute.

T152 DoW Augustus.
I take Mediolanum immediately and Ravenna on T154. Lost one cuirassier. Augustus got loads of praets and even some cuirs. I don't want to mess wit him so I take peace and move towards Greece. This is the kind of war I like: take a couple of cities and a bunch of workers for free and go pick another easy target.
Spoiler T154 :

154Ravenna.JPG



T155 Biology. Now I can atually start growing.
Mansa culture bombed Niani, York became useless:mad:
Spoiler :

155Niani.JPG



T156
Pericles completed the Statue of Liberty, I receive 1276:gold: failgold. Thats some stoke of luck, now I can have both failgold and the Statue. Would be really a shame if Mansa built it.
Edit: Pericles also built the Apostolic Palace. Thats very lucky too, there are 3 non-members.
 
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I have a problem. Mansa fals from friendly to pleased again and he likes Pericles. I can't even use Free Market for diplo bonus because Mansa is in SP, such a strong believer in free market and capitalism. About 15 turns earlier he gave me -1 for refusing to adopt Free Market, filthy hypocrit:rolleyes:
If only I was in GA when he made the demand... I did not want to waste the whole turn for that.
So, how to go about the problem?
Spoiler T159 Mansa :
I bribe him to DoW Pericles and into bureaucracy by the way. His cultural pressure is becoming unbearable.
159theBribe.JPG


I scouted Pericles' territory and learned that Thebes (the city where he built the Statue) is protected by 2 longbows and a crossbow.
T161 I DoW Pericles and move a stack of cuirs towards Thebes.
T162 Captured Thebes. A free city which comes with the Statue of Liberty as a bonus. The latter instantly provides ~100:science: per turn from free specialists. Another stack of cuirs with trebs approaches Corinth. I saw at least 6 units there before DoW.
Spoiler Thebes :
162Thebes.JPG

T163 Pericles got Rifling:cry: Just when I finished Steam Power Mansa slips to pleased again[pissed]

T166 Corinth falls. That wasn't as bad as I thought it would be. Siege works wonders once again. And the biggest news is at the bottom the event log: Mansa will trade!
Spoiler T166 :

166Corinth.JPG



On the downside, he wants Steam Power + 1200:gold: gold for Steel. Mansa will trade Rifling, no problem, but everyone has already got it (except me). I can put one turn of research into steel and trade it next turn, then use cannons to get Rifling along with a couple more cities from Pericles. Might be tricky though, if he doesn't stay put in his cities waiting for me to attack, but goes into open fight.
I'll have AL in 6 or 7turns. Perhaps, its more prudent to trade Rifling now and just sit back for while, then stomp Pericles with infantry?
 
I decided to try ang get Steel. That did not work. Mansa finished Steam Power on T168. I suppose there was no choice but to wait for AL.
T173 Assembly Line. Thats great but I only have 20 cities and 6 of those are rather useless. I need at least 5 more healthy cities to achieve my goal and I need it soon.
T177 Trade AL to Steel and Rifling with Mansa. He kept slipping to pleased at exactly the wrong moments.
T180 I got 3rd different GP and start Golden Age, convert to Christianity and Frederick becomes friendly. Trade AL to Physics.
T183 Pericles capitulates to Mansa... This is the end. The entire west is almost useless because of Mansa's and Pericles' culture. And I have similar problems in other cities. You can imagine what it is like to have Pericles, Mansa, Gandhi and Augustus all sharing long borders with you. To make it worse, I'm already falling behind in research.
I think that 2000-2500bpt and ~240 turn launch was still possible, but that is not what I wanted with this game.

Rather than trying to fix this game I'll direct my efforts on finding out how I could get this game right from the beginning. I've pointed out some of my big mistakes already and there are more of them. Perhaps, even the general plan needs a revision.

Edit: Attached starting and final saves. May be someone will achieve more than I did. I'm sure this map has great potential, just a bit tricky to handle.
 

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Made a list of problems to be solved:
1. General Plan. The main idea is the same: get early Cuirs and bulb my way to Communism. The main problem is how to build cuirs really fast. I need a bigger empire and use some tricks like upgrading prebuilt war elephants. Actually, I've got a whole bag of tricks, they need more testing but I think its going to work.
2. Picking rivals. Here Im' going to use elitetroops' advice and bring De Gaulle in the game. I will also replace Augustus with Darius.
3. Choosing start. Double commerce seems neccessary because I want at least 8 cities by T60 (only 6 in this game). And some cities will be settled far away from the capital. Another gold worked early on will bring (60-30)*7=210:gold: (240 if riverside). That is enough to settle 2 more cities early and still reach Aesthetics in time. I played a little with a pencil and paper calculating early development and pigs + cows + double gold seems to be an ideal combination.
4. Workers. I built too few in this game. At some point things began getting out of hand and I suffered from lack of workers throuhgout the game. I need to look into situations when I lacked those most, that will give me an idea when workers should be built.
5. I'm a rather inept warmonger. No idea what to do about. I just can't make my brains work on warfare.
6. Vassal states. Do I need it? This feature ruined two games that otherwise might be successful.
 
Why do you think you need Cuirrasiers? they just bring lots of unneeded selftech and weak liberalism. Take max opponents (for more hit and cease action and other good stuff), beeline HA and hope something like mids/GLH/etc gets built relatively close.

And you know use capitol which has decent food surplus after 3 main stuuf things are worked ... 2xplain cows+gold is not a recipe for great success
 
Tested a new way of doing Cuirs on a large scale and it works! I replayed this map with greater emphasis on exansion and built more workers earlier. Research rate was slower because this time Currency came into play very late. I also had a problem with getting hold of CoL.
Compare dates first attempt/this one
84/89 Music
91/99 CS
101/103 Nationalism
107/110 Liberalism
114/118 Gunpowder
126/124 DoW
126/126 Chemistry
129/133 Scientific Method
143/~145 Communism
Despite later Gunpowder I DoWed earlier this time with greater number of cuirs. Besides at this point I switched into Caste and would not whi anymore. That is how I cauhgt up with research. SM took 7 turns to research because I played very fast and did not bother to plan Great Persons. As a result of this carelessness, second GS for SM was a few turns too late, otherwise SM and Communism would be 4 turns earlier.
Does not matter, the only thing I really wanted to do with this quick run was to test a different approach to Cuirs.
 
I bought a Steam version of CIV and all my problems with BUFFY evaporated. Now I can play for HoF, provided I abide by the rules. I was reading rules and did not understand the last two:

Diplomatic Bonus Exploit
Liberating\gifting a city to a Civ you are at war with other than in a peace deal is banned as an Exploit. Repeated use of this tactic can result in diplomatic bonuses that are unbalanced.

Hammer Overflow Cap Exploit
It is possible to exceed a city's maximum production overflow through repeated use of building units that are unable to be completed. This effectively allows Spaceship parts to be built before their technology is researched, and it is banned as an exploit.

What is it all about? Obviously, you can't trade with a civ you are at war with other than in a peace deal. You can't turn production of a unit or building into whatever you like either. If you can't finish a wonder hammers turn into gold. If you can't build, say, a warrior because you got access to copper it will turn into axeman/spearman. In the opposite situation an axeman will remain an axeman but it would be unavailable, you will be able to finish production when you regain copper, but there is no way of converting it into overflow.
What is it what I'm missing?

tabs4.gif

tabs5.gif
 
I got an idea about stacking overflow. If you put a tank into the queue and disconnect oil then all hammers go to overflow, right? Never done it myself but hammers should not just vanish. So the exploit is: put a unit in the queue, lose the resource, next turn regain the recource, repeat.
Edit: I've just tested it. Works as I decribed. This way one can easily one-turn anything, no wonder its banned.
 
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Diplomatic bonus exploit: When you are at war, it is possible to liberate a city through the fist icon in domestic advisor. This would allow you to capture and liberate a city even several times on a single turn, thus you can build up unlimited positive diplo modifiers with civs you are at war with.
 
Sounds like a bug. You shoud not be able to give your enemy anything except in a peace deal.
I continued my second attempt on this map to check how I can cope with game crashes in the later phase of the game and accidentally things turned much better than anticipated. Did not look any good in the beginning when Gandhi vassaled to Mansa, but I beat them both, then Elizabeth and Frederick. Mansa turned a surprisingly weak slow teching vassal. Liz researched Medicine, Refrigeration and will research Superconductors. Gandhi did fission and will research Ecology, Frederick - Rocketry and Sattelites. Having a bunch of vassals teching at decent rate makes such a huge difference. I think will play with vassal states on again. They may cause a lot of trouble, but if you got it right the result is amazing.
Spoiler :

208.JPG

 
My "quick exercise" before starting a game for HoF turned out to be 20 hours long:lol:
T229 Last tech researched, I did not bother with reparations for the last part, so ...
T233 (1615 AD) Launch
T243 Landing
Not bad for a hastily played game with sloppy micro. Thats encouraging, now I'm ready for a serious game.
Haven't had a single crash. Probably, because Steam version is more stable or because single unit graphics really makes difference. Before Steam I used GOG Civ4 Complete Edition.
Spoiler pics :

243victory.JPG

243stat1.JPG

243stat2.JPG

 
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