An Idiot's guide to Multiculturalism

[Mechanicalsalvation]

More seriously I wish to discus problems and also more positive sides of multiculturalism. Do not hesitate to post video material.

Moderator Action: Inflammatory videos removed. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

Edit: <snip> I thought change of title would be appropriate. Also poll is coming.

Moderator Action: PDMA is not acceptable, no matter how you word it. ~ Arakhor
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Perfection]

My Muslim congressman defends my freedom. (He's not an immigrant though)

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

My Muslim congressman defends my freedom. (He's not an immigrant though)

Do you care to link his profile? What are his ethnical roots and political field of expertize?

 

[Perfection]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Ellison

 

[Mechanicalsalvation]

Some terminology clarification before this thread gets rolling:

 

[Arakhor]

There doesn't appear to be much discussing going on here. Just lots of "click my link" stuff.

 

[sophie]

I'm eating leftover Mongolian Barbecue while listening to Jimmy Cliff right now.

Hail, Multiculturalism.

 

[civver_764]

There's this Harvard study about the effects of diversity:

The core message of the research was that, "in the presence of diversity, we hunker down", he said. "We act like turtles. The effect of diversity is worse than had been imagined. And it's not just that we don't trust people who are not like us. In diverse communities, we don't trust people who do look like us."

Prof Putnam found trust was lowest in Los Angeles, "the most diverse human habitation in human history", but his findings also held for rural South Dakota, where "diversity means inviting Swedes to a Norwegians' picnic".

When the data were adjusted for class, income and other factors, they showed that the more people of different races lived in the same community, the greater the loss of trust. "They don't trust the local mayor, they don't trust the local paper, they don't trust other people and they don't trust institutions," said Prof Putnam. "The only thing there's more of is protest marches and TV-watching."

I live in the one of the most diverse cities in the US. It's not terrible by any means, but I do notice a lot of the things he talks about. I feel like you almost go into different countries depending on what part of the city you're in. There are Vietnamese neighborhoods, Japenese neighborhoods, Chinese neighborhoods, Mexican neighborhoods, etc.. It's cool from a getting to see new cultures perspective, but I think it definitely hurts the overall sense of community here.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Some terminology clarification before this thread gets rolling:

First off, this video is from an event that happened over 21 years ago, and it doesn't reflect the current political climate or other things that are going on.

Secondly, he is clueless about the definition of "multiculturalism." Canada is a multicultural society - in fact, multiculturalism is government policy here. We welcome people from any country, provided they agree to abide by our laws, our basic cultural mores, and strive to become productive citizens (I will grant that in recent decades as a society we don't have a lot of regard for "Canadians of Convenience" - those who stick around long enough to get citizenship but promptly hightail it back to their original countries, never to be heard from again unless they need something Canada is obligated by law to provide to a citizen).

Multiculturalism is not the study of other cultures. He is referring to what sociologists and cultural anthropologists do. Multiculturalism is people from a variety of cultures living and working together, and yes, it does involve learning of other cultures, but only so much as you want to.

The apartment building I live in is multicultural, and while there's not that much mingling that I've noticed (or it could just be that I don't notice because I hardly go anywhere), at least my Muslim neighbors and I coexist in peace. Nobody mentions religion or what anyone wears, and they don't mention any issues with the fact that when I order takeout, it's pretty obvious that it includes pork dishes. My only issue is that I wish they wouldn't let their kids be so damn noisy in the hallway. But that's an issue I have with any parents of young kids in this building.

 

[red_elk]

From what I know, multiculturalism as a government policy means promoting cultural diversity among its citizens.
In Canada its more like tolerance and peaceful coexistence of different cultures, while the government still encourages social integration and assimilation into "default" culture.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just I'm not sure this can be called a "real" multiculturalism.

 

[Birdjaguar]

And why should anyone listen to Peter Theil and accept his definition of anything? His claims to fame is being rich and being a friend of Trump. Why does that make him worth listening to? The Dalai lama is much more credible and interesting.

 

[SS-18 ICBM]

I remember going to Montreal's Chinatown and seeing nothing but French-language signs. That was disappointing.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

And why should anyone listen to Peter Theil and accept his definition of anything? His claims to fame is being rich and being a friend of Trump. Why does that make him worth listening to? The Dalai lama is much more credible and interesting.

I listened to the video out of curiosity. I became disgusted with him the moment he uttered that nonsensical notion of what multiculturalism is. He doesn't understand a thing about it.

I remember going to Montreal's Chinatown and seeing nothing but French-language signs. That was disappointing.

That's because of Quebec's language laws. If you go to the Vancouver Chinatown you'll see lots of whichever Chinese languages they use there (not sure if Cantonese or Mandarin) and not a lot of English.

Calgary has a Chinatown, and the last time I was there, it was a mix of Chinese and English.

 

[plarq]

It reminds me of Laffer curve for tax revenue dependence on tax rate. If the homogeneity is too high, the societies' creativity and tolerance are low and thus economic power is underdeveloped; if the homogeneity is too low, then most of social norms cannot be established, thus the stability and economic potential is also hampered. The only difference here is that a 100% homogeneous society still have some economic power, while the complete lack of mainstream ethnicity is usually a bad sign for an unstable society.

 

[sophie]

I listened to the video out of curiosity. I became disgusted with him the moment he uttered that nonsensical notion of what multiculturalism is. He doesn't understand a thing about it.

This is the man who poured millions of dollars into frivolous lawsuit after frivolous lawsuit to drive a website into the ground, buried under legal costs and insurance premiums because they said some unkind and personally invasive things about him 10 years ago. The man is a capital S scumbag.

 

[plarq]

From what I know, multiculturalism as a government policy means promoting cultural diversity among its citizens.
In Canada its more like tolerance and peaceful coexistence of different cultures, while the government still encourages social integration and assimilation into "default" culture.
I'm not saying it's a bad thing, just I'm not sure this can be called a "real" multiculturalism.

Is English "default" in Canada?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Is English "default" in Canada?

It depends on which part of Canada you're in.

There was an incident awhile back when Justin Trudeau went around the country holding "town hall" meetings with the public, and at one of the Quebec ones, a woman asked him a question in English about what he planned to do to make it easier for anglophones to access mental health services in English.

Instead of answering her in English, he said (in French), "We're in Quebec so I'm going to answer in French." He was completely oblivious to the reactions of the anglophone citizens around him (who were flabbergasted) and it never occurred to him that the reason the question was asked in English is because the questioner was most comfortable in that language, the question pertained to English-language health services, and Trudeau should have had the brains to understand that accessing health services in one's primary language is important - because his own mother (an anglophone) has bipolar disorder.

It's hard enough to explain mental health issues in one's normal everyday language. But to have to explain it in a different language? Way to risk people's lives, if they don't know that language or misunderstand something.

Trudeau is fluent in both languages, so there's no reason he couldn't have answered the woman in English and then repeated his answer in French for the francophones.

 

[plarq]

He was just being a dick.
His mom should slap him when he got home.

 

[red_elk]

Is English "default" in Canada?

English or French, depending on area. Canadians can correct me if I'm wrong, public, government-funded institutions such as schools use only state languages.
Which is reasonable policy, but "true" multiculturalism would support also other cultures - such as Chinese in the areas where Chinese people are sizeable minority. Or majority

 

[Valka D'Ur]

English or French, depending on area. Canadians can correct me if I'm wrong, public, government-funded institutions such as schools use only state languages.
Which is reasonable policy, but "true" multiculturalism would support also other cultures - such as Chinese in the areas where Chinese people are sizeable minority. Or majority

A working knowledge of both official languages is mandatory for federal employees. Provinces are a different matter. If I had to go to a provincial level court in Alberta, asking for services in anything but English would probably get me nowhere. If I were in Nunavut, however, and asked for services in Inuktitut I'd get it, because at the territorial level, Inuktitut is one of that territory's official languages (it's on the road signs, too). Part of the annual Remembrance Day ceremonies on Parliament Hill are done in that language as well.

The thing is, there's quite a difference between "should be available" and "must be available." Back in the '80s when I was a municipal census taker, I happened on a family of Cambodian refugees. The father didn't speak English, but he did understand that I was from The Government and he did the only thing he figured made sense - he handed over his papers and his kids' papers. So I got the names, ages, address... and it was only when I got back to City Hall and mentioned this to my supervisor that she said, "You should have asked for a translator, we could have found one."

I hadn't known that. But it makes sense, since (I later found out) we have a couple of social agencies that help refugees and non-English-speaking immigrants with translation services.