An Official Update... (April 07)

[Sam_Yeager]

The BetterAI seems to do well pursuing other victory types, but this will be included in BtS. Aside from this, I don't see many benefits to BetterAI -- it makes the AI far too passive, and has several bugs. My hope is that, if Blake is working on BtS, that they test it a lot better than BetterAI has been tested...

I think you're being somewhat unfair. There has been a lot of testing by users here but it's quite difficult to make a balanced mod.

There was a major bug earlier where everyone was complaining the AI was far too aggressive. Until the bug was found Blake and Iustus were trying to moderate this aggressiveness. However I suspect that they didn't get a chance to remove all the moderating parts when that major bug was fixed.

 

[wiglaff]

Well, whatever the reason, the AI is considerably inferior to stock Warlords 2.08.

I handed over the BetterAI to the stock AI, and what a difference it made. Within 10 turns Bismarck declared war on me, landed a stack of 6 cavalry by a coastal city. Simultaneously, he brought in trebuchets from the north in a stack with cavalry to take some of my other cities.

He hasn't succeeded yet, he's still trying to wear down the defenses, and he might come up short. But it sure beats a snoozefest for the whole game.

Bismarck's' tactics seem fine, too.

 

[klokwerk]

Stop saying stupid things, please. The warlords 2.08 AI included big parts of Blake and Iustus' BetterAI, that's why it's a good AI. Firaxis told it in the release notes.

Then Blake and Iustus tried to improve it in many ways and published several newer versions. It's an unfinished work so yes you'll like some of these versions and hate some other ones.

I suggest you use the 1/30 version, which is, if I remember correctly, is the most agressive one. You will have many nice wars with this one.

The latest versions are known to be much more passive, so if you want to use it, please use the 'Agressive AI' setting.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/civ4betterai/

 

[wiglaff]

That's the build that's totally broken and has dozens of needless wars..where Iustus said the AI declares war 95% of the time instead of 5%...

not much of a solution...

aggressive AI does similar thing - war, but needless/nonstrategic wars

do the other versions at least fix the "no standing army problem"?

and what did I say that was so stupid? seems like you agree I am right

 

[wiglaff]

And by the way, the warlords 2.08 patch does NOT note any blake changes to tactics or war competence, which is what I was referring to. It just notes city placement/Ai emphasis buttons, etc.

From playing vanilla 1.61 a lot, I know the war AI - defensively and offensively - was better than Blakes' mod.

 

[bonafide11]

It's not perfect, but the AI is smart enough to build some axemen and move units to their cities that are about to get taken, making it more realistic. It's enough that I moved down from a level or two since Warlords 2.08. I really think you haven't played it enough if you think the AI is worse at war.

 

[klokwerk]

Yes, read the beginning of the thread and you'll understand what was improved.

 

[klokwerk]

And by the way, the warlords 2.08 patch does NOT note any blake changes to tactics or war competence, which is what I was referring to. It just notes city placement/Ai emphasis buttons, etc.

From playing vanilla 1.61 a lot, I know the war AI - defensively and offensively - was better than Blakes' mod.

You're the only one thinking that, but ok the earth is flat.

 

[Melhisedek]

How "normal" are wars in Civ4 games? I'm in year AD-1230 and so far no sign of a war anywhere yet... This is using latest build of Better AI and playing on Chieftain difficulty

 

[Khamul]

How "normal" are wars in Civ4 games? I'm in year AD-1230 and so far no sign of a war anywhere yet... This is using latest build of Better AI and playing on Chieftain difficulty

I think you should try it harder, and pick more Civilizations. I'm playing on Prince difficulty, and I always take 3-4 extra nations in standard map.

My best record so far with BetterAI is 26 AI vs. AI wars at marathon speed, but I think my ongoing game is going to be better. There have been lot of messages of great generals, first came before 1000 BC. Very fun game indeed.

 

[Melhisedek]

This is my first "real" play so I wanted to start out slow (difficulty wise). Still have troubles with happiness and Health :/

What about the "Aggressive AI" setting? Recommended or not?

 

[Khamul]

This is my first "real" play so I wanted to start out slow (difficulty wise). Still have troubles with happiness and Health :/

What about the "Aggressive AI" setting? Recommended or not?

OK. When you feel comfortable with the game, move up in difficulty level. Then there will be more wars.

Personally I don't use the Aggressive AI (but I like Raging barbs). There is enough wars already. Like I said, pick more civilizations and there will be less room and more clashes - and probably not all have the same religion.

 

[wiglaff]

Yes, read the beginning of the thread and you'll understand what was improved.

the beginning of the thread is misleading..it certainly doesn't mention that the AI is ridiculously passive, and doesn't even have a standing army to respond when I declare war on it!

Why are you being so hostile? I think my complaints are reasonable, and MANY others have them, as I've seen on these betterAI boards.

And your recommendation for me to check the 1/30 build is hilarious, since Iustus admitted a problem with that build that made war declarations occur 19 times (no exaggeration) more than they should !

 

[Sam_Yeager]

the beginning of the thread is misleading..it certainly doesn't mention that the AI is ridiculously passive, and doesn't even have a standing army to respond when I declare war on it!

Why are you being so hostile? I think my complaints are reasonable, and MANY others have them, as I've seen on these betterAI boards.

And your recommendation for me to check the 1/30 build is hilarious, since Iustus admitted a problem with that build that made war declarations occur 19 times (no exaggeration) more than they should !

Perhaps you should look at this thread. You can see how the AI's aggression and intelligence varied. And yes, the consensus did seem to be that the latest build was a bit too passive. I still believe that one of the problems was that all the nerfing that was put in to address complaints that the AI was too aggressive was never taken out. Unfortunately neither Blake nor Iustus had a chance to address this before RL in the case of Iustus and BTS, I suspect, in the case of Blake claimed them.

I think some of the , not so friendly, comments were because you came in and just baldly stated that the Better AI was crap. It may well be that the last build doesn't meet your requirements but that's not the same as saying that all of the Better AI is no good which is how I think it came across. In addition it might have been better to post in the thread I mention above rather than this one.

 

[wiglaff]

Uh, when do I say "all of" BetterAI is crap? I'm sure some of Iustus' improvements are worthwhile.

However I think this latest build is broken, just as the 1/30 build is broken. Was there any good build of BetterAI without the passive bug or the war bug?

 

[wiglaff]

Also - why has blake stopped posting without informing people what he's doing? That's kind of obnoxious. Who's heard of a NDA that prohibits a modder from saying they are employed by a company? Makes no sense. Firaxis outright says they are using the fan community in BtS with scenarios, why not say it with AI if it's true?

 

[Sam_Yeager]

Uh, when do I say "all of" BetterAI is crap?

IMO this is where it seems to come across:

Well, whatever the reason, the AI is considerably inferior to stock Warlords 2.08.

Note that this is only my opinion. You asked why you were getting hostile responses. I merely attempted to give a answer to the best of my ability. If you don't agree then fine.

 

[wiglaff]

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

 

[Raki]

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

Problem is that you can't discuss this. In order to do so we would need 1000 of games to compare between BetterAI and VanillaAI. Only then we could say for sure, which one behaves better, more realistc, more aggressive, you name it.

From my perspective both AIs are fun, but BetterAI is better Warfare is one story but a lot of other things are just nice to have (e.g. the automated workers work much better now).

 

[klokwerk]

Yeesh, lots of defensive hostility here. The AI is inferior because it doesn't know when to end wars, when to declare them, and how to defend against them. That's an opinion about an AI, not a personal attack on anyone. Nor does it say that all of Blake's improvements - eg city placement, governor management, production management, etc are inferior. Why can't we discuss the AI and keep it mature.

Actually being mature also means accepting that other people have different opinions than yours

I played many Warlord games on monarch and emperor with the stock 2.08 AI and with BetterAI. MY opinion is BetterAI plays better even for wars. It makes much bigger stacks than stock AI and uses them better (less divided between stacks...), which is a key for success. It knows about cultural victory too, which is very nice. I don't see any real difference in the way they declare war though, unlike you. It depends on the version, we can't really talk about 'BetterAI' with the version number, there are many very different 'BetterAI'.

But if you give me money I'll say I agree with you, since it looks important for you (and because I need money).