Analysis of utility of UUs as offensive units

[Wodan]

Been thinking about strategy instead of tactics lately. Here's my contention: many early and midgame UUs (e.g., Praetorian) are not suited to be used as effective offensive units and conquer significant territory.

Here's why: you need an effective infrastructure to support significant territory expanses. Such infrastructure is not possible without markets, banks, etc. These buildings need midgame tech plus time to build them.

If you conquer significant territory before you have the infrastructure, then you get way behind in tech and effectively lose the game. That's why many Roman players have a tough late game. Using those Praetorians is just too hard to resist.

Now, that's not to say you can't use an early UU to get moderate increases in territory. Say 25% (2-4 additional cities). That's actually your best move.

Also, that's not to say you can't use your UU in another role. e.g., defensive (so you can build minimum military and focus your production upon infrastructure), raiding (hamstringing your neighbors by pillaging their improvements), or gifting your UUs to prop up weak AIs who are in war against strong aggressive AIs.

Likewise... there might be other effective strategies: "think outside the box" strategies. e.g., use Praetorians to raze, not conquer. Effectively wipe clean the planet, except maybe a city with Pyramids and such. Sure, barbs will be a problem, but your Praets shouldn't have too much trouble. Ditto on Cho-Ko-Nu and most other UUs in this category.

I'm not saying you can't win the game on a high skill level, just that it is never going to be as optimum as having a good UU come into play after your infrastructure is built. Cossack etc will provide a more optimum game than Praets etc. Yes, you have a smaller territory with your core infrastructure, but you get your core infrastructure built earlier, and you get techs such as Military Tradition earlier, and you then can more than double your empire and have a successful bid to conquer the world in the middle ages. Even if you don't manage it, you are almost assured of a late game conquer win.

Finally, some UUs come too late to be effective in a bid to conquer. By that time, your success or failure is determined by what has gone before. The UU will aid you in what you are doing anyway, but you won't win because of the UU.

So, here are the UUs I think are suboptimal: Camel Archer, Cho-Ko-Nu, Conquistador, Immortal, Jaguar, Keshik, Phalanx, Quecha, Samurai, Skirmisher, War Chariot

Here are the UUs which are superior: Cossack, Musketeer, Redcoat

Non-factors to this discussion: Fast Worker, Navy SEAL, Panzer

Wodan

 

[Gherald]

The Musketeer is not superior to many of the UUs you list as sub-optimal, because the Muskets become obsolete very quickly.

 

[jayseedubya]

Musketeer is superior? I find that musketeers are almost immediately obselete w/ the research of chemistry. With engineering already researched, grenadiers can move pretty far on a good road system anyway.

 

[Sisiutil]

That's an interesting take and one I'll keep in mind as I move up the difficulty levels.

Most players are big fans of powerful early UUs--especially Praetorians--because of how crucial an early war is at Prince and higher. The main complaint about Cossacks and Redcoats is that they "come a little late". But based on your assessment, the timing of their arrival is perfect.

I have found when I've played as Rome that the maintenance costs of early empire expansion are somewhat mitigated by the Organized trait's cheaper civics and courthouses. The latter also allow you to build Forbidden Palace much sooner. Combined with enough cottages, Rome can handle all those additional cities. But then again, I haven't moved beyond Prince yet, and those benefits may be offset by the AI's advantages.

 

[DaveMcW]

Wodan, you need to specify a difficulty level.

 

[Mutineer]

Well, I generally do not care about UU, but Musketeer is a supperior unit.
I put this arguments over and over again and again, but no one listened.
If you apply proper strategy you can get them as early as 200AD.
In addition they are draftable unit.
In my later games I am warmondering using them for very long time.

 

[Immaculate]

@mutineer,

Want to outline how you get muskets in 200AD?

I have really enjoyed reading some of the SGs you have been involved in (and how crazy you make some players, and one in particular- u know who i mean- who do not see how your plans could possibly work until it does- two scientists for early philosophy is one that i got from you and situationally works out great), so i would be glad to hear about this strategy.

 

[a_fool]

beeline for gunpowder. Use oracle to get the most expensive tech in the gunpowder line, or one that isn't on the current line you are on but will need. Trade to civs for other techs along this line.

Cs slingshot
paper
education gunpowder

is best way, or.

polytheism
priesthood
monotheism
writing
theology
paper
education
gunpowder

my freind who just well... burned the game from my other friend, figured this out on like day 2, lol. Its his fav strat. It's hard to play vs, unless u know he's guna use it, then you just need to beeline for feudalism... and then longbowmen and just hope you win .

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Samurais and Conquistadores are suboptimal ?
Samurais are much more effective than the macemen, they can even take out longbows when the city has still the defence bonus. If you use the CS slingshot you can have them long before anybody gets Feudalism.
With organized you can afford a large empire and 90% science if you conquer a holy city, or two...
Early expansion might slow down your research, but when the new cities and cottages become productive you can easily catch up. I'm playing on Prince but i guess this will work on any difficulty.
If you don't want to conquer you can stil use the units to pillage improvements which is sometimes enough to cripple the enemy for the rest of the game, and this is a task for Keshiks and Conquistadores. There is no really effective counter for Conquistadores except maybe elephants. They move fast, have +50% against melee, and receive defense bonuses !

 

[ticktockclok]

Someone has never been Immortal-rushed.....

 

[Tomb.]

Someone has never been Immortal-rushed.....

or has not done an Immortal rush.
Also conquistadors are underrated. +50% against meelee, their natural counter (pikemen) ! So their only real counter are Saladins camels.

 

[atreas]

Also conquistadors are underrated. +50% against meelee, their natural counter (pikemen) ! So their only real counter are Saladins camels.

Are War Elephants forbidden?

 

[shivute]

Are War Elephants forbidden?

Yeah
War elephants aren't a UU. They are very powerful for their time though

 

[shivute]

Oh, I see what you mean. Sorry

 

[GoodSarmatian]

Also conquistadors are underrated. +50% against meelee, their natural counter (pikemen) ! So their only real counter are Saladins camels.

Camel archers? Why not ordinary knights ? But a unit of the same strength is not something i would call an effective counter. Remember the terrain defence.

Are War Elephants forbidden?

They are, if you don't have Ivory.

 

[GABB]

Camel archers? Why not ordinary knights ? But a unit of the same strength is not something i would call an effective counter. Remember the terrain defence.



They are, if you don't have Ivory.

Many people underestimate withdraw chances. A good stack of Camels with Flanklin I and II (+55% withdraw chances) have excelent odd: good chance to win, good chance to withdraw and a little chance to die. They don't receive defensive bonus, but your SOD need good defenders whatever it is.

 

[atreas]

They are, if you don't have Ivory.

First of all, this is not an argument since Conquistadores also need not one, but two resources to be created.

Second, you are saying nothing new: many people tried to show that Conquistadores are overpowered, and all of them realised they aren't because a) there is a unit with more power than them, and b) even pikes have almost even chances (don't expect to see them unpromoted) but cost far less. Even phalanxes do a tremendous job against them, because they cost about 1/3 of the hammers.

In general, no mounted unit up to Cavalries (Cossacks) can claim to be a tremendous power in civ4.

 

[Tomb.]

Are War Elephants forbidden?

Sorry, forgot them.

 

[Corbeau]

And the next time I see someone write "Saumrais" I'm going to flip.

 

[Sisiutil]

First of all, this is not an argument since Conquistadores also need not one, but two resources to be created.

Second, you are saying nothing new: many people tried to show that Conquistadores are overpowered, and all of them realised they aren't because a) there is a unit with more power than them, and b) even pikes have almost even chances (don't expect to see them unpromoted) but cost far less. Even phalanxes do a tremendous job against them, because they cost about 1/3 of the hammers.

In general, no mounted unit up to Cavalries (Cossacks) can claim to be a tremendous power in civ4.

I can see how Conquistadores don't compare to the best UUs (Praetorians, Redcoats, and Cossacks), but I suspect, as with most UUs, that if you bee-line to them you can make good use of them for awhile, especially against an opponent lacking Engineering/Pikemen. But I haven't tried that yet.

And that's my other point: I suspect Conquistadores are underrated because so is Spain/Isabella. I confess I haven't played a game as her yet, but with the 1.61 patch's upgrade to her Expansive trait, I'm looking forward to giving Spain a go sometime soon. At the very least it will be refreshing to NOT have pouty, disagreeable Isabella as a neighbour; she and I never get along until I switch to Free Religion...