Anarchy vs. an Ordered Government

[Mastreditr111]

meh, they went about it the wrong way. read the books in my sig to find the real way to perfect society.

Both are, to me, as horrifying as 1984 in their own, different ways.

 

[Mastreditr111]

Population unsustainable? Sorry, are you referring to when an ecovillage become over-populated, or when the world does?

People can always move, they have and will.

world. People move because it in some way benefits them. It won't do so in this kind of society. That is why I suggested the religious aspect, (God(s) appeased is good thing) but it would be detremental and destructive of an anarchy in the long term.

 

[no human choice]

Both are, to me, as horrifying as 1984 in their own, different ways.

they're brilliant examples of what the world should be.

 

[tomsnowman123]

world. People move because it in some way benefits them. It won't do so in this kind of society. That is why I suggested the religious aspect, (God(s) appeased is good thing) but it would be detremental and destructive of an anarchy in the long term.

Moving would benefit people in that it would keep the ecovillage and green/eco-anarchy alive.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

Actually, I agree with justoneinpower's statments.

Brave New World and We aren't dystopias, they're utopias, why don't people see this?

If we had an all powerful government that kept the the entire population drugged up and docile, everyone would be happy. There would be no wars or violence and everyone would be in a state of perpetual bliss without a care in the world. They would be forced to be happy whether they wanted to or not. Personally I value the right to be unhappy. It makes happiness sweeter.

 

[no human choice]

If we had an all powerful government that kept the the entire population drugged up and docile, everyone would be happy. There would be no wars or violence and everyone would be in a state of perpetual bliss without a care in the world.

this is good. we should go for this.

 

[Mastreditr111]

Fugitiv: Ironically enough, you may be right, in a very twisted, disturbed fashion, but I agree with your "right to unhappiness" line of thought.

EDIT: Justone, it is amusing how you cut out the part of his statements that make his point. You obviously can't argue with him, so you ignore him instead.

 

[Narz]

No. Bigger cities are better to live in, they offer more opportunity.

Opportunity for what? Are people in cities happier? Do they have more peace of mind?

Some of your ideas scare me.

It's good to be scared sometimes. It means you have an opportunity to expand.

People are not, by nature, generous, nor are they long-term thinkers. They do what will benefit them most in the here and now. If that means owning a gas-powered car, then they will do so. If it means having a coal-fired power plant in town, then they will do that as well.

I disagree. If people didn't know how to create long term plans and impliment them the world would be a much more chaotic place. Big corporations, modern banks and loan sharks (which of course own 99% of the media) don't exactally encourage today's populace to be thifty, intelligent and forward thinking. Many "primitave" people have used their foresight to survive for millennia while countless "civilized" empires have risen and fallen.

We need to re-educate people.

Exactally.

Re-education does not overwrite human nature. We would need to genetically reengineer people's mental processes from the ground up.

It is not human nature to not be able to survive and think ahead. If anything humans do this better than any animal ever. Your belief system is what needs to be changed.

the governmet just needs to gentically engineer people to follow the government, be happy, do their jobs, be peacefull, and such and such

Well played.

human nature as we know it is flawed. it needs to be controlled. freedom doesn't help anybody.

Human nature is perfect. It just needs to be harnessed to be productive. The mindset that human nature is flawed and needs to be obident and controlled leads to the rise of men like Hitler and Stalin (who's fathers of course raised them with the same iron fisted philosophy).

Tom, I admire the cheerful patience you are displaying here.

 

[Mastreditr111]

Narz, I am saying that if we were perfect at long-term thought (beyond our own lifetimes) then the world, too, would be perfect. We aren't, and so we face global warming, oil depletion, pollution...

No amount of reeducation will deal with our problems in that area.

 

[Narz]

Narz, I am saying that if we were perfect at long-term thought (beyond our own lifetimes) then the world, too, would be perfect. We aren't, and so we face global warming, oil depletion, pollution...

And we can solve these problems. We planned to build pyramids, empires, state buildings and the Internet. Sometimes things go wrong, problems are created (and often ignored more out of desire to retain power than ignorance). Human nature is not at fault. Look at the Bushmen, they have lived in harmony with their environment for centuries (as have the Tibetens before the Chinese massacre). Modern civilization is the problem. Humanity has grown far too fast for everyone to be held accountable for their actions. Frankly, I'm impressd out how well it's all turned out. Give your head up.

No amount of reeducation will deal with our problems in that area.

If that solution doesn't work none will. It all starts with new thinking, new ideas and new plans. Self-destruction is not inevitable. The collective goal of our species is to survive. We are no more flawed (morally or otherwise) than dolphins or bunny rabbits. And unlike them we have a great measure of control over our own destiny.

 

[Mastreditr111]

Ok... I think it could conceiviably work..... when pigs fly. (GENETIC ENGINEERING!!!!)

People, even when they think in the long-term, only think of themselves, not the whole planet. Unless their actions will cause the planet to fall apart WITHIN THEIR LIFETIMES, they won't care, provided it helps them during that period.

 

[Fugitive Sisyphus]

"What has modern civilization ever done for us?"

 

[Mastreditr111]

uhh... want the list?

 

[Narz]

Ok... I think it could conceiviably work..... when pigs fly. (GENETIC ENGINEERING!!!!)

People, even when they think in the long-term, only think of themselves, not the whole planet. Unless their actions will cause the planet to fall apart WITHIN THEIR LIFETIMES, they won't care, provided it helps them during that period.

I can't argue with your cynical attitude but I maintain my position that most people do not think like that. People are social animals who enjoy passing on traditions (ideally positive ones) to future generations. I would wager not many folks like the idea of their children and great grandchildren being miserable. The real problem (IMO) is that most people feel impotent to change themselves and the world for the better. Cynicism is a defense mechanism and a self-fulfilling prophecy. However, human nature usually triumps over adversity in the end. Look, for example at how catastrophe often brings people together.

By the way, do you fit your own model of "people" (not caring beyond your own lifetime or beyond your own circle of family/friends)? If so, why get invovled in an internet forum, let alone a thread like that?

 

[Mastreditr111]

I hope you are right. I would much prefer that to the alternative, and I think I personally have the foresight to do just that. If I can, then plenty of people can. I just hope it is enough.

 

[Narz]

I hope you are right. I would much prefer that to the alternative, and I think I personally have the foresight to do just that. If I can, then plenty of people can. I just hope it is enough.

That's the spirit Mast! We need more positive minded men like yourself in this world!

 

[Pasi Nurminen]

I think that we can all learn a bit on governing if we simply take a look back at the histories of peoples that have historically been labelled unfairly and rather viciously as "enemies" by those that would seek to oppress us for their own personal benefit. Looking at the historic People's Democracies across Eastern Europe, the Soviet Union, and parts of Asia, we saw the ideal state that harmoniously combined the people's needs for peace, progress, and prosperity with their constant hunger for emancipation. The integration of the will of the people, to be achieved at any cost, was the great achievement of these People's Democracies before they were taken down shamelessly by the forces of evil and antidemocracy in the world. Look to the shining examples of the People's Democracies, not to pitiful and dying ideologies such as "anarchism" or "liberalism".

 

[tomsnowman123]

Exactally.

Well played.

Tom, I admire the cheerful patience you are displaying here.

Thanks, I try to keep it that way. Afterall, this is just an internet fourm, it's not like we're debating in the UN or something.

"What has modern civilization ever done for us?"

I could answer your question seriously, becuase I believe modern civilization has brought about a lot of bad things, like the creation of institutions that are destructive to human freedom and the enviroment.

 

[no human choice]

like the creation of institutions that are destructive to human freedom

dude, that's a good thing.

 

[Richard Cribb]

Check out the first link in my sig and try guessing what I voted for.
There are some rather weird conceptions and assumptions about anarchism here which I would have loved to discuss further, but tonight I don't have time. I will see if I can get back to this thread tomorrow.
But just one thing: Anarchy is not the same as chaos.