[GS] Ancient Walls now provide 100 outer defense?

[AriochIV]

For some reason when looking at the walls tooltips, I didn't see the "+". Looking again, it's surely cumulative.

The tooltips could be written much more clearly. Since each tier of walls must be built on the previous tier, I see no reason not to just state something much more clear like "Increases outer strength to 200."

 

[SupremacyKing2]

• Renaissance Walls +100 Outer Defense (300 Total HP)+3 City Strength(9 Total Strength)
• Urban Defense 200 HP (All walls obsolete, outer defense as strong as Medieval Walls, 0 Total Strength, Immune to Rams and Towers)

Am I reading that right? Urban Defense is less powerful than Rennaissance walls. That seems odd.

 

[AriochIV]

Am I reading that right? Urban Defense is less powerful than Rennaissance walls. That seems odd.

Once you get into the modern era, city walls become much less effective against modern weapons. In previous Civilization iterations, they lost all combat benefit whatsoever.

But in this case, I'm not sure we actually know what the new Urban Defense value is.

 

[Draco84]

In GS:

• Ancient Walls +100 Outer Defense (100 Total HP),+3 City Strength(3 Total Strength)
• Medieval Walls +100 Outer Defense (200 Total HP),+3 City Strength(6 Total Strength)
• Renaissance Walls +100 Outer Defense (300 Total HP)+3 City Strength(9 Total Strength)
• Urban Defense 200 HP (All walls obsolete, outer defense as strong as Medieval Walls, 0 Total Strength, Immune to Rams and Towers)

Are these the values, or is this a expectations? I would have thought Urban Defense would have 400HP.

 

[SaiH]

Did anyone see where in the new techtree urban defense is located?
I was surprised not to see any cities with urban defense in the livestream.

 

[Victoria]

Am I reading that right? Urban Defense is less powerful than Rennaissance walls. That seems odd.

Are these the values, or is this a expectations? I would have thought Urban Defense would have 400HP.

You build no walls and get 200 HP at urban
You build renaissance walls and also get +9 city strength, I also suspect you will get 300 strength walls but that may not be the case because of cities outgrowing walls amd I am happy with that, either will do.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I haven't finished the livestream, but do we know that Urban Defense is still only 200 HP? If so, I can't see a real compelling reason to build past Ancient Walls (not that there is now in an unmodded game), other than a rather temporary boost to defense.

Make Rams effective only against Ancient Walls and there's your reason to build Medieval Walls. Make a Sapper upgrade for Rams that work against Medieval Walls, and there's your motivation to upgrade to Renaissance Walls. Maybe they've done something like this for GS? I'm hoping, anyway.

All of the above assumes you don't maintain a large enough army that the AI can't get to your cities. Which, frankly, is more fun, because then there's always the risk (hope?) that the AI gets it's angry on and comes calling.

 

[Laurana Kanan]

Unless FXS changes the obsolescence of walls when Steel is researched & Urban Defenses are gained, I still don't see a good reason to sink production into Medieval & Renaissance Walls that will be automatically obsoleted anyway. Although, there is that new mystery building @ Computers that could be a defensive improvement. Maybe it could be Urban Defenses has moved techs and has to be hard built now, instead of freely granted. The fact is, until we know definitively whether there have been changes to Siege units and/or defensive buildings (Incl. UD), this is all pretty much conjecture.

Make Rams effective only against Ancient Walls and there's your reason to build Medieval Walls. Make a Sapper upgrade for Rams that work against Medieval Walls, and there's your motivation to upgrade to Renaissance Walls.

Still wouldn't convince me to upgrade my walls in the base game. I have better things to spend production on. The only reason I upgrade them now is because I've modded them to increase Outer Defense, Ranged Strike, & Loyalty.

 

[regeneration64]

Now:

• Ancient Walls +50 Outer Defense (50 Total HP),+2 City Strength(2 Total Strength)
• Medieval Walls +50 Outer Defense (100 Total HP),+2 City Strength(4 Total Strength)
• Renaissance Walls +50 Outer Defense (150 Total HP)+2 City Strength(6 Total Strength)
• Urban Defense 200 HP (All walls obsolete, but basically Renaissance Walls + another 50, 0 Total Strength, Immune to Rams and Towers)

In GS:

• Ancient Walls +100 Outer Defense (100 Total HP),+3 City Strength(3 Total Strength)
• Medieval Walls +100 Outer Defense (200 Total HP),+3 City Strength(6 Total Strength)
• Renaissance Walls +100 Outer Defense (300 Total HP)+3 City Strength(9 Total Strength)
• Urban Defense 200 HP (All walls obsolete, outer defense as strong as Medieval Walls, 0 Total Strength, Immune to Rams and Towers)

Correct me if I am wrong, but now GS is out, is this correct? It seems odd that Renaissance Walls now give more HP than Urban Defences. If you have production to spare (rare I know!) then is it now worth building them? I've not experimented as of yet but if you do build Renaissance Walls, when Urban Defenses comes round do the walls revert back to 200 HP...?

 

[Laurana Kanan]

All walls become obsolete with Urban Defenses. Each level adds +100 Defense up to 300hp and then UD gets 400hp total.

 

[vanatteveldt]

Hey, I didn't design this game, Firaxis did! Don't blame me

Obviously, the idea was to have a nice classical front line, archers in the back, spearmen & swordsmen in the front, horsies at the side. And that works well - until renaissance. Then you suddenly need to explain why musketmen would be a melee unit with less range than archers.

Honestly, I'm open to suggestions. If you would ask me, I would probably make archers/catapults simply support units that can be stacked.

The design decision to have any pre-industrial unit have more than 1 tile range is silly, I think. Tiles represent at least whole city districts, but even a long bow has an effective range of at most 200-300 meters. They are trying to put within-battle tactics within strategic game, which is weird.

I think they should have used a 'wesnoth' style system, with units having melee and ranged strength, and the attacker choosing the engagement range: a sword attacking an archer is a melee fight, and archer attacking a sword a (one-sided) ranged fight. But an archer getting attacked by an archer would be able to shoot back, just like a swordsman hits back at an attacking swordsman. The only exception should be actual siege weapons like heavy artillery, bombers, and rockets (and maybe catapults), for which it actually makes sense that it has "strategic" range.

 

[Arent11]

The design decision to have any pre-industrial unit have more than 1 tile range is silly, I think. Tiles represent at least whole city districts, but even a long bow has an effective range of at most 200-300 meters. They are trying to put within-battle tactics within strategic game, which is weird.

I think they should have used a 'wesnoth' style system, with units having melee and ranged strength, and the attacker choosing the engagement range: a sword attacking an archer is a melee fight, and archer attacking a sword a (one-sided) ranged fight. But an archer getting attacked by an archer would be able to shoot back, just like a swordsman hits back at an attacking swordsman. The only exception should be actual siege weapons like heavy artillery, bombers, and rockets (and maybe catapults), for which it actually makes sense that it has "strategic" range.

Well, "old" games like master of magic, master of orion etc. switched to a tactical map if a battle occured. That is of course bad for multiplayer, so you somehow want to integrate tactical & strategic combat directly on the world map.

The best ways I know to do that is actually really games like Wesnoth, Fantasy General or just the classic civilization games.